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Author Topic: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF  (Read 16642 times)

Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2007, 12:43:07 AM »
The rule regarding 2 for 1 specials remains the same.  What this means is that you will not see any Dwarf or Goblin Bolt Throwers. "Throwing the baby out with the bath water."  O.K. boys! back to the picket line.



 :laugh:

Hold your horses, this isn't the last draft, we still have to do some testing, and we'll try this out, certainly.  For what its worth, I'm a prospective O+G player who plans to include goblin ballistae because they cost a measly 35 points, not because they're 2 for 1; I wasn't aware they were still 2 for 1 until I bought the book, and I was still planning to have at least one in my army.  And personally, I'm terrified of dwarven bolt throwers.
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Offline Rufas the Eccentric

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2007, 06:36:42 AM »
You should not be afraid of mine.   In one recent outing of three games, somewhere between 15-18 rounds of shooting with four bolt throwers, at least 60-72 shots, I had exactly 5 hits that caused wounds.  :eusa_wall: 

I still won two out of three battles and took the overall title.  The last outing was better but I still amazed my opponents with the number of "1's" I manage to roll.  I defence of four Bolt Throwers, I take no black powder in the list.  No Thunderers, Cannons, Organ Guns, Steam Cannons, or Gyrocoptors. I do not believe Gyrocopters can really fly.  :closed-eyes:



Sorry, I can't draw strike pay unless I keep the picket signs up.  :smile2:
Sigmar on a sling, the stuff some people come up with. . . .

Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2007, 05:45:23 PM »
You should not be afraid of mine.   In one recent outing of three games, somewhere between 15-18 rounds of shooting with four bolt throwers, at least 60-72 shots, I had exactly 5 hits that caused wounds.  :eusa_wall: 

I think we need advanced rules for your dice, not 2 for 1's  :icon_eek:

Hell, add my dice in as well, you should see how cowardly my elves are  :icon_rolleyes:

But seriously, dwarven ballistae cost 45 points, with stubborn crew, and the option to buy another tough crewman with BS4 for 15 points.  Than there are downright terrifying runes, especially if you're taking dragons, chariots or big trees.  All for around the cost of a single elven RBT.  Thats pretty awesome to me, I wouldn't need 2 for 1's to sweeten the deal.  Of course, black powder kicks serious ass itself, but while I admire your medieval style Dwarves, it can really be a very tough build, many players have great success with it, in no small part because of the bolt throwers.

All this being said, its not set in stone.  Keep up your picket lines, grab some hot coffee, you may be there awhile  :-D
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2007, 10:37:10 PM »
I have tweaked/clarified a couple things:

 
Quote
All units in Special slotting which had the ability to be purchased in multiples for a single slot lose this ability beyond the FIRST selection. So for example, dwarven or goblin armies may make 1 selection of 2 for 1 ballistae, but dark elf bolt throwers or chaos spawn are unrestricted, since they are rare choices


Quote
Any model on foot fighting with a single/additional mundane hand weapon, or single/additional one-handed magical weapon which is not a spear (i.e sword of might, blades of loec) gets +1 to hit if it has at least double the Initiative value of the enemy model it is attacking

I hope this will bring you off the pickets lines and back to work, RufA:icon_wink:
« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 12:00:50 PM by rufus sparkfire »
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Offline lonelyjew

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2008, 05:43:59 PM »
I may be alone in this but I like realism in games.  Here are a few ideas which, since I'm new, probably might not translate too well but they might have some good.

1. It would make sense that any unit(with the exception of detachments) should have a champion of some sort in command.  This would be all the more important with the formation changes.  *I mean champions would be required and free for all armies.  It doesn't make sense for units to not have leaders since there would be nobody to direct them or command them.

Formation ideas/critiques

2. I like the idea of having to use leadership for formation changes but the real flaw I see in this is that leadership isn't a good representation of movement discipline.  What I mean to say is that state troops, a professional standing army, would have more than enough training and discipline to change formation with ease.  A militia force on the other hand, or a more ragtag army like the orcs, should have a bit more trouble. 

3. Another point to changing formation is that I think it should be freely done if the unit doesn't move.  If done while moving it should get progressively harder.  At a quarter movement it should be at -1, half -2, whole -4,  -6 at movement and a half, and impossible at double since there is no realistic way of imagining an army changing a formation while in full sprint.  An exception to this could be units like fast cavalry.

4. Loose formation - the one major thing you forgot to add is that shooting at a unit in loose formation should be at a -1 like with skirmishers.  The whole point of a loose formation is because arrows tend to find their mark easier in tightly packed groups.  As far as the 360 LOS goes I don't think it should apply to guns.  They are aimed forward, not up, so shooting backward or sideways in a loose formation of all things would seem far to cumbersome.*noticed you took care of shooting in loose formation issue

5. Shield Wall - good, I would only add that the unit should always strike last, no matter what.  *it seems like +1 to armor just doesn't seem good enough to warrant the lack of movement a shield wall confers.  Maybe +2?

6. Spear formation - I don't see why a unit shouldn't be able to move half, or even its whole move distance.  A spear wall seems like it would be far easier to make or keep than a shield wall.  *Maybe, like with pikes, spear formation should benefit from always strikes first instead of impact hits.  Just a thought.
 
7. Wedge formation - Firstly, it's not just a cavalry formation, the Romans invented it and used it with their foot soldiers since cavalry played a largely minimal role in their armies(at least when looking at the army as a whole).  The idea of a wedge formation is to wedge an enemy line to break their formation.  Since a unit losing it's cohesion has a good chance of panicking I think this formation should, if the wedging unit wins combat resolution, force the enemy unit to take a panic test.  The idea is that if the wedging unit wins combat it breaks the enemy formation and causes panic, if they lose they fail to wedge in enough to break the enemy units cohesion.  The better the formation does the harder it is to pass the panic test.  The wedge formation also must charge to get this ability(that's why you'd see it best with cavalry).  I am unsure if this formation should only last the first round of combat.   *Thinking on it more the wedge formation should last until the unit in the formation loses combat

Weapon ideas/critiques

8. I think getting rid of the shield bonus is an awful idea.  It doesn't make any sense to me at all.

9. Halberds should only get to fight in two ranks if they are in a spear wall formation.  I know they have a spear point but are far more cumbersome than spears so I don't think normal combat would allow them to always fight in two ranks.  *added to this, why would anyone take spears if halberds were spears with +1 strength?  So they could pay an extra point for shields?  It's just unbalanced.

10. Pikes - The original rules for pikes are fine as is.  Pikes, in real life, could fight in six ranks or more(this would be too insane for warhammer) so fighting in four ranks is fine.  I like the idea of them always being in a spear formation but they should be able to move so long as they stay in formation.  To change formation, turn, wheel, etc. they should not be allowed to move.  They should be allowed to march as well but if they do so they must take a whole turn just to reform back into their spear formation or not gain any pike bonus.*Just to explain this, in real life facing a formation of pikes from the front is suicide.  Flamerges were one of the few weapons made to go against pikes by cleaving off the pike points.

That's about it as far as looking at the first list.  I love that you put this on the forum since warhammer rules are flawed imo.  Me and a buddy of mine were actually talking about doing the same thing but haven't gotten off our asses do so.  Great ideas overall and some great concepts.

Now here's a few thoughts of my own - sorry if they're not too well put together, I haven't thought them completely through and am starving while typing this.

Moral - I think a moral system should be put into place for combat.  The idea here is that it's insane that units break as damn quickly as they do.  I've had units break and flee into terrain killing them all with not one guy dying in actual combat.  In real combat troops, especially knights, were never so cowardly and eager to flee and get run down.  The only place I ever heard of units breaking like this was in Ancient Greece when the city states would resolve arguments with battle and this was only because their goal was only to win said arguments and not to anhialate each other.  A good benefit to this is that it would give players far more time to maneuver other troops while some are committed to the main line and, off course, your units wouldn't break like idiots right after the first round of combat. 

There should be various levels of moral and some units should hold these levels more strongly than others(militia loses moral far quicker than greatswords).  As moral drops troops go more on the personal defensive making the attack/defense less efective and as such they take a penalty to attack(armor stays the same because the extra defense is countered by the faltering line). 

*I thought of a few levels of moral based on those of Rome Total War

Eager - this is what all troops start out in normally
Shaken - first drop in moral, -1 to hit
faltering - second drop, the line is starting to break, -2 to hit
rout - the troops break and flee


Moral would raise or lower based on combat resolution.  I don't have a good idea of point values but the idea would be that even a strong willed unit, if hit hard enough, could break right away but this wouldn't be too likely. 

*Here are a few levels of discipline I thought of and the combat resolution difference required to move down in moral. 

stubborn - difference of 4 to drop, difference of 2 to raise

High - difference of 3 to drop, difference of 2 to raise(knights, black orcs, appropriate heroes, lords, etc.)

normal - difference of 2 to drop, difference of 2 to raise(state troops, orcs, other normal troops)

low - difference of 1 to drop, difference of 2 to raise(militia, goblins, etc.)


Fear and terror would have a strong effect on this, perhaps automatically dropping moral in units.
* Fear should require a leadership test, if its failed moral drops automatically by one level, two in low dicipline troops.

Terror should automatically drop all moral levels by one, perhaps in an area, and require a test.  If failed moral levels drop by another level.  low dicipline troops would lose two levels and therefor automatically break


Knights - I think games workshop has done a piss poor job with knights.  These guys aren't just horsemen, they're arrogant, extremely skilled, very well armored, killing machines.  Knights were trained from childhood in the art of combat and were masters of it.  What's more is that they knew this and thus were extremely eager to jump into battle, even when they weren't supposed to.  Their attitude was such that they would fearlessly charge, many times to their deaths, into battles that were stacked strongly against them.  Also, it was said that knights were the best fighters but the worst soldiers because they were so extremely eager just to jump into the fray.  The attitude they held was that they were the battle, the ground troops were just the fodder.

To put this into rules-

-knights will start out at a different moral level than most units - impetuous.  The first time they are within charging distance of an enemy they must take a leadership test to see if they can hold from charging.  If they fail they charge.  After this though they can act as normal. 

-Knights don't leave combat, not to retreat, not to reform, they don't leave.  Off course they shouldn't be unbreakable but their moral should be extremely hard to shake. 

-I'm sure nobody wants to mess with stats but if it was up to me knights would have 1 higher strength, toughness and weaponskill and cost more points to field.

The last idea I can think of off the top of my head was breaking combat.  I think it's silly that once a unit is committed to combat it can't break away unless it goes into a retreat.  If you were getting flanked or surrounded you wouldn't hold your ground and guarantee your death.  Moreover there are many historical uses of feigned retreat to trick an enemy into a strategically bad position. 

-A unit should be allowed to break combat and flee if they pass a leadership test.  The worse they are doing in combat the easier the harder the test.

-If they don't make the test the unit always flees but they take a number of wounds equal to the amount they didn't make the check by.  They still flee though.

-An enemy unit, as normally, would have to test to see if they chase the unit.

Remembered one more thing, a unit that is caught shouldn't automatically die and this goes double for hitting terrain.  When the hell has anyone ever heard of a whole unit of knights getting destroyed by a damn tree?!  Seriously, I have no idea what games workshop was on when they came up with this retarded set of rules.  The main idea here is that a unit is not just destroyed when it's caught.  The last game I played I had lone wizard destroy a large unit of corsairs that fled into him.  What kind of shit is that? 

-If a unit is caught the unit doing the chasing gets free attacks

-The caught unit, still fleeing, has a weaponskill of 1 and loses any armor from shields

-The caught unit can only flee unless they roll insane courage(which they get a chance for every round) at which point they are brought back into combat at the lowest level of moral thats above fleeing

-If a unit runs into terrain it effects them as normal.  If it's impassible and can't maneuver around they are trapped.

-If a unit is trapped and caught the unit will fight to the death.  Perhaps for this the unit should have it's weaponskill dropped to 1 but gains the frenzied ability. 

-A unit that is fleeing and charges into an enemy unit is treated like a caught unit.

*- forgot to add, the whole time the unit that's fleeing will continue to flee 2D6" or 3D6" and, if caught, the persuing troops will continue to persue though they'll always keep pace.

Looking forward to your guys' thoughts.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 10:12:03 PM by lonelyjew »

Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2008, 04:57:05 PM »
Can't say I like any of those ideas, but thanks for commenting  :icon_smile:
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Offline lonelyjew

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2008, 11:17:51 PM »
To each his own right?  Me and my buddy have always been into realism, I know most people aren't.  Honestly, the only things I really can't stand in the rules that I've heard a decent amount of consensus on were the rules that allowed my lone wizard to take out a large group of fleeing troops. 

Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2008, 03:14:30 PM »
The current list probably won't change before testing, but here are my pre-testing thoughts:

-As much as I think it would improve balance, we'll probably remove the 2 for 1 thing.  This is because it simply doesn't fit with the goal of the project, which is not to balance broken elements, but instead to add more options and fun to the game.  This rule would be better suited to a club "balance" charter.

-I have serious worries about the RIP rule in the magic section, I would be surprised if it turns out to be balanced

-Some predict monsters will be too powerful with the addition of the monstrous charge rule, particularly flying monsters, who can avoid a spear wall with relative ease.  I've been mulling over the idea of instituting a "monster reaction test" for monsters when they reach half wounds themselves, only they'd have to fail a LD test to have to roll on the chart, and they could test every one of your turns to regain control (on their riders LD if they have one, or the handlers if they have them).  Additionally, I like the idea of having monsters who have rolled on the chart, whether from this roll or if their rider is killed, re-rolling on the chart if they're wounded (if in combat, roll after combat is resolved)

-Another small thing that could be added if monsters are too powerful is to have successful Precision Strikes cause double wounds.

What does everyone think?
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2008, 05:20:07 PM »

Some other ideas for magic (especially if the RIP and chain-casting stuff goes out):

-if a mage miscasts, subtract -1 from the roll on the miscast chart for every 1 rolled beyond the first two. If the roll on the chart is below 2, it counts as 2.

-Dispel scrolls universally cost 30 points (Including High elves).

The first would add a catch to offensive magic, as all the other suggested changes are beneficial, and the second would do away with the abomination of the scroll caddy, as well as encourage other kinds of magic defense. Besides, scrolls are undercosted anyway I believe.
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2008, 08:48:49 PM »
Another contributor came up with what I think is a terrific idea:  a rule that would allow units of M7+, if they're in a line long enough to have models unengaged when charging an enemy unit, to lap around (up to a total of US4) on the charge, and in subsequent rounds.  This would encourage the rarely seen long line of cavalry, as well as help out a bit against spear walls.
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Offline cisse

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2008, 06:39:06 PM »
The first would add a catch to offensive magic, as all the other suggested changes are beneficial, and the second would do away with the abomination of the scroll caddy, as well as encourage other kinds of magic defense. Besides, scrolls are undercosted anyway I believe.
Why is the scroll caddy an abomination? It's necessary to have some kind of defence against magic, and if you don't want to spend too much points on magic yourself, a scroll caddy is a logic choice. It is because there are very powerful spells, that scroll caddies are needed - it's not with the scroll caddies themselves that the problems lie.
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2008, 11:58:02 PM »
Why is the scroll caddy an abomination? It's necessary to have some kind of defence against magic, and if you don't want to spend too much points on magic yourself, a scroll caddy is a logic choice. It is because there are very powerful spells, that scroll caddies are needed - it's not with the scroll caddies themselves that the problems lie.

It is an abomination because it goes against what should be the whole point of magic: wizards on each side casting spells.  Scroll caddies, as their nick-name suggests, are only there to carry a single type of equipment; their magical ability is beside the point.  The ability to carry dispel scrolls should always be secondary to spell-casting ability, and natural dispelling with dice.  Additionally, dispel scrolls are simply too good for the price, and with a few notable exceptions, they make anti-magic far more powerful for the cost than offensive magic.  If dispel scrolls costed 30 points, you could still take them, but you'd want to actually use the wizard, since you can only have 1 on a hero-level mage.  To be cost-effective, he'd have to *gasp* cast spells!

I've also seen that there are quite a few gamers who agree with me on this.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 12:04:39 AM by Gondarion »
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2008, 12:02:08 AM »
Newest Draft:

                            CORE MECHANICS

-any unit with M7+ may lap around up to US4 worth of models on each side on the charge.  This may ONLY be models from the front rank who are not in base to base contact with the front of the enemy unit.  Under no circumstances does this negate rank bonus.

Additionally, Any unit, after expanding frontage in a combat, may allocate up to  US4 worth of models to lap around to each sides of the enemy unit.  These may only be models which are not in B2B with an enemy model already.  As before, this maneuver never negates rank bonus.
                     
-Any model rolling to hit using either WS or BS, and one which is hitting on a 2+, inflicts a PRECISION STRIKE on any roll of a 6 to hit.  A precision strike is a hit which, if it successfully wounds, ignores armour saves.

-This is the new To Hit chart.  Its similar to the current one, but is a bit more sensible I think.  Note that the To Wound chart stays as is.
 
        1     2       3     4       5       6       7      8     9       10
1     4+   5+    5+   5+     6+    6+    6+    6+    6+      6+
2     3+   4+    4+   5+     5+    5+    5+    5+    5+      6+
3     3+   3+    4+   4+     4+    5+    5+    5+    5+      5+
4     2+   3+    3+   4+     4+    4+    4+    5+    5+      5+
5     2+   3+    3+   3+     4+    4+    4+    4+    4+      5+
6     2+   3+    3+   3+     3+    4+    4+    4+    4+      4+
7     2+   2+    3+   3+     3+    3+    4+    4+    4+      4+
8     2+   2+    3+   3+     3+    3+    3+    4+    4+      4+
9     2+   2+    3+   3+     3+    3+    3+    3+    4+      4+
10   2+   2+    2+   3+    3+     3+    3+    3+    3+      4+


 
 
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2008, 12:02:39 AM »
Continued:


                          RULES  (thus far)
 
             Special Unit Formations
 
-Any regiment of troops led by a character or champion, or within 12" of the
general, may attempt to change formation at the beginning of any movement
phase in which they are not fleeing or in combat.  Note that troops may not change formations whilst frenzied; if they become frenzied and are in a special formation, they return to normal formation immediately.  To change formation, the
regiment must take a LD test.  The general's LD, or that of any character in
the unit may be used, but army-specific rules such as cold-blooded or
strength in numbers do not apply.  A unit with a musician may add +1 to this roll, but this may not stck with the LD of the general; if within 12" of the general, a unit must use his unmodified LD.  If passed, the unit has
successfully changed formation, and all the rules for the new formation
apply; if failed the unit maintains the formation they are in at present,
but may not march this turn, and any enemy regiment charging them in the
opponents next turn gains +1 to hit them in combat, due to the general
confusion.  No unit may reform if in a special formation.  Any unit which is broken in combat, or is pursuing a broken foe, will automatically return to normal formation after the sequence of events is determined.  A unit which breaks an enemy and successfully restrains pursuit also loses any special formation they were in, but may immediately test to regain it, using the aforementioned rules.  The unit formations (thus far) are as follows:
 
1. Loose Formation:  Any regiment on foot may attempt to
form a loose formation.  A regiment in loose formation may move through any
type of terrain bar impassible with no movement penalty.  If armed with
missile weapons, they gain a 360% LOS for the purposes of shooting, although
only models along the sides of the regiment can fire.  Units in loose formation may not reform. However, units in Loose Formation gain no rank bonus in combat.
 
2. Shield Wall:  Any unit on foot of US10 or greater and
armed with shields may attempt to form a shield wall.  Models in a unit in
the shield wall formation gain +2AS against missile fire at all times.  In combat, they gain +1 to their armour save for the first round of combat only.   However, they may not fire missile weapons, nor may they use two-handed weapons.  Units in a
shield wall formation may not march, and their basic M value is halved,
rounding up.  If at any time a unit in this formation is reduced to below US10, they are returned to normal formation immediately.
 
3. Spear Wall: Any regiment of troops on foot of US10 or
greater and armed with spears or halberds may attempt to form a spear wall. 
While in this formation, the unit may not charge or march, nor may it move
forward or backward in any way; the only maneuvers they may perform while in
this formation are Turn, Wheel and reform.  Any mounted model charging a unit in spear wall formation to the front is hit with 1 impact hit for each defender in base-to-base contact who is carrying a halberd or spear;  monsters declaring a Monstrous Assault, or charging normally from over half distance away, are hit in the same manner; flying monsters always count as charging from half distance away, due to their high speed.  This hit is at the strength of the mount/monster, +2 if charging from above half charge distance away.  Models charging this way into a spear wall are not hit in this manner if they are not in base-to-base contact with a model in the defending unit which is carrying a halberd or spear.    If at any time a unit in this formation is reduced to below US10, they are returned to normal formation immediately.
 
4. Wedge Formation:  Any regimented of mounted models
with US5 or higher who are not subject to the rules for fast cavalry (or do not have another specified formation, such as the Lance Formation) may
attempt to form a wedge formation.  Whilst in this formation, any shooting directed at this unit gains +1 to hit.  When charging, any model in a unit in wedge formation inflicts 1 impact hit. This is at the strength of the mount (including any charge bonuses), +1 if charging from half charge distance away.  Note that impact hits inflicted by a spear wall or by pikes are worked out before those caused by wedge formation.  Note also that any models choosing to lap around do not gain this bonus.   If at any time a unit in this formation is reduced to below US5, they are returned to normal formation immediately.

Note:  The "spear staffs" of the Eternal Guard in the Wood Elf army list count as spears, but not shields, for the purposes of unit formations.
 
         Monstrous Assault
 
-Any individual model of US3 or greater, or unit of models US3 or greater,
discounting those subject to the rules for chariots or flying cavalry may,
if they're over half charge distance away, declare a special charge called a
Monstrous Assault.  Any model performing a monstrous charge inflicts
a number of impact hits on the defending unit equal to the US of the charger
(if a mounted monster, the rider does not count).  If the defending unit has
a collective Initiative value higher than the charger, subtract 1 impact hit
for each point of difference.  Impact hits are resolved at the basic
strength of the monster.  Note that these impact hits are resolved after
those inflicted by a spear wall or pikes.  Note also that these hits may only be allocated if the charger is in base to base contact with at least one enemy model, and any model lapping round on the charge does not count as having performed a monstrous assault.  Any model performing a monstrous
charge automatically strikes last in the ensuing combat, and is hit at no
worse than a 2+.  If a model/unit declares a monstrous charge and cannot
reach charge distance, treat this as a normal failed charge. 
 
Note:  units in the Ogre Kingdoms army list are especially adept at
these kinds of maneuvers.  Any unit from this army list who performs a monstrous
charge does not automatically strike last, but rather in the order of
Initiative (modifiers, such as the "slways strike first" rule in the high elf army, apply as normal).  In addition, impact hits from this maneuver gain +1S for each
rank beyond the first.  Note that these need not be full ranks, but that any
ogre without an ogre-sized model behind him does not gain this bonus.

Note: units such as the stegadon which always inflict impact hits in the manner of a chariot do not have the option for this rule, as their basic monstrous charge is better anyway.
 
                  Weapons and Armour
 
The following changes have been made:
 
-The hand weapons and shield bonus no longer exists. 

-Any model on foot fighting with a single/additional mundane hand weapon, or  single/additional one-handed magical weapon which is not a spear (i.e sword of might, blades of loec) gets +1 to hit if it has at least double the Initiative value of the enemy model it is attacking.
 
-In combat, the armour save bonus for both mount and barding only apply when
facing enemies of US3 or lower, or US2 or lower in the case of flyers.  So a knight may get this save when fighting infantry, other knights or ogres, but not against giants, great eagles or dragons, for example.  Note that this only applies to base US; items and such which augment basic US do not apply here.
 
-Any unit armed with halberds may fight in two ranks when charged and in
subsequent rounds of combat.  However, the +1S bonus applies only to models
in the first rank.

-Units armed with halberds and spears may only use their full complement of Attacks in the front rank, or if the front rank model directly in front of another is killed in combat before the second rank has a chance to strike.  For example, a chosen warrior of Khorne may only attack once with his halberd if in the second rank, but may make his full complement of attacks if in the front rank, OR if the model directly in front of him is killed (i.e. monster impact hits).
 
-Pikes can now be used effectively in two ways.  If in normal formation, pikemen may fight in 4 ranks in the first round of combat, whether charging or receiving a charge; they receive no bonuses in subsequent rounds.  Pikemen are also well trained in the art of the spear wall.  If electing to form a spear wall, units armed with pikes may automatically attain this formation, they need not test for it.  When in spear wall formation, all rules for that formation apply.  However, if charged in the front,  the second rank of pikes causes impact hits as well;  charging enemies in base-to-base contact are hit not only by the corresponding defender as normal, but also by the model right behind him.

-Battle Standard Bearers in ALL armies may buy equipment as per the new High Elf army list
 
Bows and Longbows may be used as normal, but gain a special firing ability
called Volley Fire.  As with monstrous charge, declare that you are
using volley fire at the start of the corresponding phase.  The following
rules apply to volley fire:
 
-A unit electing to volley fire must be in basic formation, but may fire in
any number of ranks.  Both friendly and enemy troops do not count as an
obstruction for the purposes of LOS, and as such you may attempt to fire at
an enemy you cannot see.  However, you must fire in the direction the unit
is facing, in their 180% arc of sight.
 
-When electing to volley fire, do not roll to hit as normal.  Instead, you
must guess the range to the target.  If you guessed the correct distance, or
within a margin of error equal to the BS of the shooters (for instance, if
you guess 17" and the target is within 20", and you have BS3, you've made
it), then roll to hit for each arrow at a basic 4+, -1 if the unit is
skirmishing, -2 if a single target.  If any part of
the targeted unit is within the guessed range, you've still hit.  If you
failed the guess, the arrows all miss.

-Any unit on foot and armed with bows, longbows or crossbows may purchase flaming arrows for +1 point if armed with bows/longbows, +2 if armed with crossbows.  In addition to counting as flaming attacks, flaming arrows impose a -1 to any panic tests in any phase in which a unit suffers casualties from flaming arrows.  However, any unit who has purchased flaming arrows must remain stationary with their braziers; if they move for any reason, they lose any of the bonuses for flaming ammunition.

-Any guess weapon (such as a cannon or mortar), and any unit choosing to volley fire, may not fire at any enemy unit that is not in the LOS of at least one unit in the army.
 
-Any unit of troops subject to the rules for "skirmish" or "fast cavalry" may attempt to make a "fire and flee maneuver" when charged, as a substitute for their normal "flee" charge reaction.  This is exactly like a flee, except that the unit may fire any missile weapons they possess whilst doing so.  The modifier for stand and shoot applies here, and any shots (except for thrown weapons) fired by fast cavalry in this manner always count as long-ranged, for a total of -2 (further modifiers apply as well).  Skirmishers do not suffer the -1 for long range, as they're more coordinated in this maneuver.  Units with multi-shot weapons may only fire one shot when performing a fire and flee maneuver.  Since this is a variation of the "flee" charge reaction, fast cavalry who subsequently rally may move and shoot as normal.             

Chariots
 
These are by far the newest rules, they're VERY RUDIMENTARY.  What matters
is the basic concept, which is to change chariots from shock troops to what
I call "heavy harassment".  Note that chariot regiments (as found in Tomb
King armies), as well as the Black Coach, War alter, Snotling Pump Wagon,
and the Steam Tank count as "heavy chariots", and as such are still subject to the old rules for chariots.  Otherwise, the changes to chariots are as
follows.

 
-Chariots maintain their composite profile in the same way as now.  However,
characters mounted in chariots add +2 to their armour save when fighting
enemies US2 or lower, as well as against flying cavalry and other chariots.
 
-Chariots no longer do impact hits as normal when charging into combat. 
When charging, a chariot may choose to wheel the bulk of the chariot into
the enemy, which inflicts d3 impact hits at the basic strength of the
chariot, d3+1 if equipped with scythes.  However, this maneuver also inflicts d3 impact hits on the chariot itself, at the strength of the enemy. 
 
-Chariots gain the "hit and run" rule.  In addition, when fleeing as a
result of a hit and run, a chariot may choose to perform the aforementioned
wheel maneuver, even if it has done so this turn. This does not count as
being part of combat, as combat resolution has already been resolved.
 
-models firing missile weapons from chariots suffer no penalty to move and
shoot.  In addition, they may fire when charging into combat with no
penalty, instead gaining +1 to hit with this shooting, although this
shooting does not count towards combat resolution.  They may also fire with
no penalty on any turn they rally, as well as when fleeing from combat as a
result of a hit and run, although they are at -1 to hit in the latter case.
 
-If passing within 1" of an enemy model/unit, any model in the chariot (not
the beasts pulling it) may attempt to swipe at the enemy as they move by.   
These models may attack the enemy as if they were fighting normally, but the enemy cannot return these attacks, unless the enemy is a chariot, in which case use Initiative order to decide who strikes first.  Additionally, if the chariot is equipped with scythes, the chariot afflicts 1 impact hit at the strength of the chariot for each rank of the unit it passes by; if the unit has no ranks, this has no effect.  Note that there is no combat resolution as a result of this since it does not take place in the combat phase, and you can only perform this special attack when moving and in the movement phase.  However, if this attack kills 25% of the unit, a panic test is incurred.

                             Magic

-The Basic Lores have received the following tweaks::)]
 
   Lore of Fire: Fireball reduced to 4+ to cast.  Otherwise unchanged.

   Lore of Metal: Distillation of Molten Silver is now S4 AP; cost upped to 9+.  Otherwise unchanged.

   Lore of the Heavens: Second Sign now lasts until the beginning of the CASTER'S next magic phase, and the re-rolls may be used on rolls to hit, wound, armour/ward saves, and look out Sir! rolls,  as well as those for determining number of impact hits or wounds caused by a multi-wound weapon such as a bolt thrower.  Comet of Casandora now causes  a single S10 for d6 wounds when it lands on any model directly underneath the nominated spot (NOT the radius).  Otherwise unchanged.

   Lore of Beasts: The Bear's Anger may now be cast on unit champions or any other model which can receive a challenge, as well as characters.  Otherwise unchanged.

   Lore of Life Unchanged.

    Lore of LightPha's Illumination may now be cast in the same aforementioned manner as Bear's Anger.  Otherwise unchanged.
 
   Lore of Shadow:  Shades of Death is gone from the list; the third spell is now the following new one:

       Penumbra of Twilight 7+.  Lasts one turn.  May target a single friendly unit within 18".   Any unit wishing to shoot at the enchanted unit must roll equal to or under their BS on a d6 (2d6 if at long range) in order to spot the unit; otherwise it cannot shoot at it.  If a war machine, the unit may not fire at all; otherwise it may choose a new target but is at -1 to hit due to the confusion.  Additionally, any wizard must roll equal to or under their magic level in order to target the enchanted unit with any spells.
 
Lore of Death: Dark hand of death now inflicts d6+4-LD wounds (same mechanic as a banshee) on a single nominated model; caster may pick out characters/champions in units as with steal soul.  No armour saves allowed .  Cost upped to 6+. Wind of death inflicts 2d6+3-LD wounds with no armour saves allowed.  Otherwise unchanged.

-Random spell generation as a universal rule no longer exists.  Any wizard may choose their spells if using a single lore.  If a wizard (such as a slann mage priest) has and chooses the ability to acquire spells from multiple lores, he may only choose his first spell, and must randomly determine the spells from the other lores.

-Whenever a mage miscasts, any 1's rolled in addition to the first cause an additional miscast.  Work out the first miscast, than test for any following.  If the first one ends the magic phase, the others are canceled out.

-Dispel scrolls cost 30 points each universally (including high elves)

-Any number of wizards within 6" of each other may attempt to "chain-cast" a spell, which allows them to pool their personal PD towards a single spell attempt.  They may only do this if they all have the spell in question in each of their arsenals, and none of the wizards may exceed their normal casting limit (though all modifiers apply as normal).  If the spell has a set range, the target of the spell must be in range of each of the mages; if the spell has a set radius, choose one of the casting wizards as the starting point.  If the result of this is a miscast, each wizard is affected by the result (if one of the mages has an item that prevents or mitigates miscast effects, this does NOT protect the other mages).  If the spell is a RIP spell, all the wizards must maintain it together.  However, they may add their levels together for the purposes of casting while maintaining.  If 2 or more 1's are rolled when attempting this, all the wizards are affected by this result.  If any of the wizards flees or is killed, any spell cast or maintained by the group of wizards is ended immediately.

Wizards have the ability to use basic "battle spells" in the heat of combat which are too minor to require outside power, and are not noticed by opposing magic users.  Wizards may make use of a list of standardised combat spells.  A wizard attempting to use these abilities may not fight in the following close combat phase.  A wizard may make a single attempt to use one of the following abilities (there will be an even 6 eventually).  This is done by attempting to equal or surpass the casting roll using a single die, to which half his magic level (rounded up) is added.

4+ Blast: St 4 hit to enemy models in base to base.
5+ Binding:  Enemy is at -1 to hit the wizard.
6+. Shield: Wizard Enemy is at -1 to wound the wizard
7+ Minion; Wizard is moved out of combat and a basic statline (Ws2 St3 T3 etc) takes his place
8+ Destruction: Wizard causes D6 St 6 hits on the enemy. Remove models closest to the wizard.

Note:  None of these magic rules apply to wizards in the ogre kingdoms army list, whose magical rules and abilities are so unique to themselves that they make no use of these abilities, and it is doubted they are aware of them in the least.
 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 08:11:21 PM by Gondarion »
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2008, 08:02:35 PM »

Edit: The following change was just made:

Quote
Dark hand of death now inflicts d6+4-LD wounds (same mechanic as a banshee) on a single nominated model; caster may pick out characters/champions in units as with steal soul.  No armour saves allowed .  Cost upped to 6+.

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Offline cisse

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2008, 11:03:30 PM »
Why is the scroll caddy an abomination? It's necessary to have some kind of defence against magic, and if you don't want to spend too much points on magic yourself, a scroll caddy is a logic choice. It is because there are very powerful spells, that scroll caddies are needed - it's not with the scroll caddies themselves that the problems lie.

It is an abomination because it goes against what should be the whole point of magic: wizards on each side casting spells.  Scroll caddies, as their nick-name suggests, are only there to carry a single type of equipment; their magical ability is beside the point.  The ability to carry dispel scrolls should always be secondary to spell-casting ability, and natural dispelling with dice.  Additionally, dispel scrolls are simply too good for the price, and with a few notable exceptions, they make anti-magic far more powerful for the cost than offensive magic.  If dispel scrolls costed 30 points, you could still take them, but you'd want to actually use the wizard, since you can only have 1 on a hero-level mage.  To be cost-effective, he'd have to *gasp* cast spells!

Hmm... I can see where you're coming from, but you're essentially forcing people to take even more mages if they want to have *some* magic defence. It's already nearly impossible to defend against magic without investing points in mages (except for some specific races, khorne and dwarves for instance). But if you buy these mages for defence, you also have too pay points for their offensive capabilities... Even if you don't like magic or don't plan to use any spells at all. A "scroll caddy" is perhaps not the most fluffy way to play a mage, but it sure is the only way for many armies to defend against magic without investing too many points in it.
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Offline Wyzer1

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2008, 08:08:32 PM »
Why is the scroll caddy an abomination? It's necessary to have some kind of defence against magic, and if you don't want to spend too much points on magic yourself, a scroll caddy is a logic choice. It is because there are very powerful spells, that scroll caddies are needed - it's not with the scroll caddies themselves that the problems lie.

It is an abomination because it goes against what should be the whole point of magic: wizards on each side casting spells.  Scroll caddies, as their nick-name suggests, are only there to carry a single type of equipment; their magical ability is beside the point.  The ability to carry dispel scrolls should always be secondary to spell-casting ability, and natural dispelling with dice.  Additionally, dispel scrolls are simply too good for the price, and with a few notable exceptions, they make anti-magic far more powerful for the cost than offensive magic.  If dispel scrolls costed 30 points, you could still take them, but you'd want to actually use the wizard, since you can only have 1 on a hero-level mage.  To be cost-effective, he'd have to *gasp* cast spells!

Hmm... I can see where you're coming from, but you're essentially forcing people to take even more mages if they want to have *some* magic defence. It's already nearly impossible to defend against magic without investing points in mages (except for some specific races, khorne and dwarves for instance). But if you buy these mages for defence, you also have too pay points for their offensive capabilities... Even if you don't like magic or don't plan to use any spells at all. A "scroll caddy" is perhaps not the most fluffy way to play a mage, but it sure is the only way for many armies to defend against magic without investing too many points in it.

Well, true

But now-days there are some alternatives, such as Warrior Priests, where they at least provide a dispel dice

I vaguely recall making some extensive arguement for this in the past...
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2008, 06:05:45 AM »
Well, there are a couple other options, though not necessarily better ones, we'll have to discus them.

One option would be to replace dispel scrolls with something like the following (amended from previous suggestion)

Scroll/stone of  undoing/anti-magic: 25 points.  One use only. Can do one of two things:  either adds 3DD towards a single dispel attempt; or adds 3PD in your magic phase which can only be used to dispel a single RIP spell.

This would still allow for scroll caddies, but wouldn't be such a no-brainer because scrolls would lose their over-powered auto effect.

Another thing to consider is limiting the number of common arcane items to no more than the magic level of the mage.  It is a limiting factor though, so perhaps it goes against the spirit of the project.



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Offline ImOOA

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2008, 06:01:56 PM »
Cavalry should either get 1 impact hit per knight in touch, or d6 impact hits (if 5 abreast). The likelyhood of knights charging a unit and stopping to lean over in the saddle is very slim. maybe they also recieve impact hits against spears on the charge.
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2008, 09:22:37 PM »
Cavalry should either get 1 impact hit per knight in touch, or d6 impact hits (if 5 abreast). The likelyhood of knights charging a unit and stopping to lean over in the saddle is very slim. maybe they also recieve impact hits against spears on the charge.

There is a special formation in these rules that allows for that. 

Anyways, my aforementioned idea has been more fully developed.

What about this replacement for dispel scrolls (along with a new rule):

Scroll of Undoing 25 points.  One use only. Adds 3DD towards a single dispel attempt.  Can also be used to add 3PD in your magic phase, which can only be used in an attempt to dispel a "Remains in Play" spell.

NEW RULE:

-a wizard may carry multiple common arcane items as before, but cannot carry any more than his magic level.  For example, a L3 wizard may have 3 scrolls, or 2 and a power stone, but no more.

What do you think?
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2008, 11:06:15 PM »
I have another big idea which would likely guarantee Monstrous Assault being pretty balanced, although it would necessitate an improvement to Wedge Formation, not to mention chariots, which need serious work anyways. The basic idea is that impact hits, which would become ubiquitous with this ruleset, would get their own special designation in the game mechanics. Something like this:

- Casualties from Impact Hits are distributed as per shooting, except they count towards combat resolution. For example, a black coach inflicts 5 unsaved wounds on the charge, which count towards CR, and the wraith on top kills 1; all but 1 enemy model in B2B may attack.

Perhaps some modifier for chariots and other models inflicting impact hits without monstrous charge (which already has an in-built bonus for the opponent)?
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Offline Johan Willhelm

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2008, 11:24:05 AM »
Spent a very enjoyable time reading through this. Just wish to lend my support for the 30pt dispel scroll.

Volley fire is ingenious and as for fire arrows  :eusa_clap: BRAVO!


The formations may be a bit much for little Johan's mind but I'd happily play against them

All round coolness :mrgreen:
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Offline Frank_91

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2008, 12:09:39 PM »
I really like your ideas! Making archers a little better makes sense.
We might playtest your rules someday :-)

(P.S: Have you got some of ideas for the formations from Total war: Barbarian Invasions or TW:Medieval 2?)
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2008, 06:52:01 PM »
Spent a very enjoyable time reading through this. Just wish to lend my support for the 30pt dispel scroll.

Volley fire is ingenious and as for fire arrows  :eusa_clap: BRAVO!


The formations may be a bit much for little Johan's mind but I'd happily play against them

All round coolness :mrgreen:

Thanks!  And please, please do playtest them, we'd love to hear any feedback!

Also, what do you all think about the recent rule proposals?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 03:22:53 AM by Gondarion »
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Offline Gondarion

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Re: Advanced Rules Supplement for WHF
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2008, 11:20:14 AM »
What do you guys think of the following ideas for the advanced rules:

-Instead of costing 30 points, dispel scrolls (and their equivalents) would instead add 3DD/PD to a single dispel attempt, either in the opponent's magic phase, or in your own to dispel RIP spells. 

-mages cannot take more common arcane items than their magic level (so you'd have to upgrade to L2 to get 2 scrolls or power stones, and neither warlocks nor necromancers could take more than 1.  Also, high elf archmages could no longer take 5 scrolls, which is silly to begin with, or 5 power stones).

-Impact hits receive their own designation, and are now resolved as per shooting, except that they count towards CR.  (Obviously, this would necessitate changes to wedge formation, and the chariot rules aren't really there yet anyway).

-Shield wall changed to allow full basic movement, though a unit in shield wall formation still couldn't march.
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