Topic: how to? empire vs VC

[oiralies]

Okay, Im playing against VC pretty often but have a lot of problems winning.

He usually plays with 2 x Mortis engine, 6 or 8 crypt horrors and some low level vampires and a necromancer lvl 4, other than that he plays with 40 x ghouls and 40 x skeleton warriors.
well there might be some other units in the army such as those etheral ghost things (cant remember the name).
My question is, how do i make a solid army against it, so i win not only by chance..

My standard army is:

LVL 4 wizard (lore of shadows or life)
2 x3 DGK
40 x Halberdiers
1 x volleygun
1 x cannon
1 x celestial hurricanum
1 x steam tank

well thats my "STD core army", i´ve made alot of different lists but i just gotta accept im not that good yet and it just doesnt work for me, its probably about the tactics aswell, im having a hard time figuring out how to approach his army since he keep real tight and very hard to manouvre around.

His favourite set up is mortis engine in the centre, cryptorrors up front and the core is usually in hordes not for fighting but for keeping his necro alive.

[Cursain]

Okay, Im playing against VC pretty often but have a lot of problems winning.

He usually plays with 2 x Mortis engine, 6 or 8 crypt horrors and some low level vampires and a necromancer lvl 4, other than that he plays with 40 x ghouls and 40 x skeleton warriors.
well there might be some other units in the army such as those etheral ghost things (cant remember the name).
My question is, how do i make a solid army against it, so i win not only by chance..

My standard army is:

LVL 4 wizard (lore of shadows or life)
2 x3 DGK
40 x Halberdiers
1 x volleygun
1 x cannon
1 x celestial hurricanum
1 x steam tank

well thats my "STD core army", i´ve made alot of different lists but i just gotta accept im not that good yet and it just doesnt work for me, its probably about the tactics aswell, im having a hard time figuring out how to approach his army since he keep real tight and very hard to manouvre around.

His favourite set up is mortis engine in the centre, cryptorrors up front and the core is usually in hordes not for fighting but for keeping his necro alive.

I can tell already that regeneration is giving you a serious challenge. You should highly consider giving one unit of demigryphs the flaming banner, and changing your mage to a fire mage.  The spell that gives your unit magic attacks, and +1 to all damage rolls (possibly allowing auto wounds) would help you a lot.

[Branderic]

Perhaps you are over committed to artillery?

[oiralies]

thx, should i ditch 1 of DGK units?

[b0007452]

I agree above your'e over comitted to artillery. If I was you I'd drop the cannon as you already have one on the steam tank and that itself is a great unit. It can pretty much act as an anvil against the whole unit of skeletons as long as they don't have a tooled up vamp in them. With that extra 120 points I would grab a naked engineer to mind the hallblaster.... a lethal combination. You're then left like 50 points. If I was you I'd grab a detachment for your halberds because currently you're running quite low on infantry. I would either go for 2 units of 5 archers to redirect and run characters into when things get gritty for a bit of safety. Or perhaps another 10 halberds/swordsmen. Swordsmen can soak up a charge for a counter from either the Halberds or DGK, or a detachment of halberds which can pack a punch themselves if they hit a flank. Just what I would do Probably worth playing around with ideas yourself.

Personally I wouldn't drop the DGK, they hit like a ton of bricks and smash them into the flanks of the skeletons and bones will go flying. I'd try to avoid the ghouls and crypt horrors though as I think they have poisoned attacks and so the T4 is irrelevant +1 to the BoET as Cursain said, and it's only 10 pts so you shouldn't have a problem putting it in with the above reccomendations.

Also I don't know if this thread would have been better off in the Parade Ground, see if anyone moves it.

The basis of the army list isnt too bad though. Good luck.

Jim

[oiralies]

thx for the tips guys.

I´ve been playing a little the last few days, fire wizards with fireballs proved very efficient.
However my argument for the cannon is his, excuse the language, pain in the ass Mortis Engine, which explodes in my face in turn 3-4 and wipes out 1/3 of my army every time because he have 2 of them.

however firewizards could do the trick, but he´s not too bad with his magic fase either.
i was thinking 1 x LVL 3 FWiz 1 x LVL 1 FWiz.
I was thinking death lore aswell, and go for caracter snipe since his whole army is built around hes characters, otherwise his entire army crumbles.
Its just a risky thing to do aswell, anybody got experience with this?

[SevenSins]

Death lore lets you snipe necromancers reasonably reliably, not so much the vampires, great stats and such. On a second note purple sun also hurts VC as many things have low init.

I think you're very low on bodies though, and with 0 redirectors you lack some tactical flexibility

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Death lore lets you snipe necromancers reasonably reliably, not so much the vampires, great stats and such. On a second note purple sun also hurts VC as many things have low init.

I think you're very low on bodies though, and with 0 redirectors you lack some tactical flexibility

+1.

You need more wounds on the table and less toys-  check out the Infantry Tactica on some tips.

 
HHG

[Half-Light]

I'm going to play against a Vampire Count as well quite soon, and I was wondering a couple of things:

-How badly do you need magic dominance? In a 2k pts game, is a lvl4 light wizard enough?

-Combat resolution seems very important in this match up, would you recommend a war banner?

-Is ranged firepower especially important versus a VC player? I get the 1 or 2 canons against the occasionnal monster or whatnot, but are light harassment units like pistoliers or archers useful? I understand you need at least some magic stuff to throw at ethereal units though

-I'm hesitating between my horde of halberdiers + 10 ICK, or 10 ICK + knights (same point value than the horde) Both units boosted by WP's. I can't decide which combination is best.

That's it, if you guys have any input on this, I'd be glad to hear it =)

[Holy Hand Grenade]

I'm going to play against a Vampire Count as well quite soon, and I was wondering a couple of things:

-How badly do you need magic dominance? In a 2k pts game, is a lvl4 light wizard enough?

-Combat resolution seems very important in this match up, would you recommend a war banner?

-Is ranged firepower especially important versus a VC player? I get the 1 or 2 canons against the occasionnal monster or whatnot, but are light harassment units like pistoliers or archers useful? I understand you need at least some magic stuff to throw at ethereal units though

-I'm hesitating between my horde of halberdiers + 10 ICK, or 10 ICK + knights (same point value than the horde) Both units boosted by WP's. I can't decide which combination is best.

That's it, if you guys have any input on this, I'd be glad to hear it =)

A Lvl 4 with a dispel scroll is enough.  Light works well against undead.

I would concentrate on making sure you have high Str attacks instead of a War Banner.  Cause lots of wounds and you don't have to sweat CR.

Pistoliers and archers won't kill much-  but they do a good job diverting.  He can only march units near his General and lots of undead have poor leadership.  Nothing like causing a frenzy unit to charge and overrun into compromising positions...

As far as Halbs or ICK, it really depends on what else is in your army.  The mobility of Knights are great, but if you don't have the support for them (diverting, range of magic for buffs, etc) they may not always get the charge off and will be less effective.

Hope that helps.

 
HHG

[Half-Light]

It surely does! Thanks for your reply.

So as far as magic goes, a lvl 4 is enough. Hmm. I better hope he doesn't blow himself up in the first few turns, because the battle would change quite a bit. Maybe bringing a level 2 as a back up is a good compromise, but since I plan on using two WP's, I won't find the power dice to make all of this worthwhile. Playing rather defensively with my Lvl 4, and by that I mean not using 5/6 dice per cast seems like a sound plan.

I think pistoliers are a huge asset indeed, especially in an army with a lot of knights: they look scarier. They have this ability to draw so much more attention than what they're worth, and I think it might come in handy against a CV army. Provided he doesn't just run into them with his wolves The pair of pistols doesn't count as +1 attack right? Since they're mounted I mean.

I was thinking of massing knights because of their impact, and their ability to strike wherever I want them to (relatively). However, the thought of him having a big unit of death guard is scary, and as I see it, there are two solutions to win against this: the horde of halberdiers, since the killing blow won't matter, or simply avoiding the unit.

I can't remember if monstruous cavalery like our DG is affected by killing blow? But I don't think it is, since you actually fight the unit as a whole: DG+knight, and eventhough the knight only has 1 HP, the DG has 3. Logic would suggest that it KB doesn't actually work against them.

Concerning the ethereals, would you recommend gearing every single character with a cheap magic weapon?

[Holy Hand Grenade]

So as far as magic goes, a lvl 4 is enough. Hmm. I better hope he doesn't blow himself up in the first few turns, because the battle would change quite a bit. Maybe bringing a level 2 as a back up is a good compromise, but since I plan on using two WP's, I won't find the power dice to make all of this worthwhile. Playing rather defensively with my Lvl 4, and by that I mean not using 5/6 dice per cast seems like a sound plan.

Going with one Lvl 2 backup is not a bad idea if you can fit it in.  The best thing to keep your Lvl 4 mage alive is to give him a 4+ Ward save.  This will keep him from being sniped easily and it helps on bad miscasts.

I play Warhammer alot and I am very aggressive with my magic.  See the Griffon Battle Reports in the Battlegrounds for examples.  I am not saying that you won't get your mage killed sometimes, but I rarely lose him, even with being aggressive.  If you really want a spell to go off-  don't hesitate to throw a little dice at it!

I think pistoliers are a huge asset indeed, especially in an army with a lot of knights: they look scarier. They have this ability to draw so much more attention than what they're worth, and I think it might come in handy against a CV army. Provided he doesn't just run into them with his wolves The pair of pistols doesn't count as +1 attack right? Since they're mounted I mean.

My personal favorite anymore (if I can fit them in) is Outriders.  Two units of 5 or 6 IS scary...and if you place them right supporting each other will cause your opponent concern.  I like two units...because even if you have to move and adjust, one can fire while you move and position the other one.  And, like Pistoliers, they can be used as fast cavalry diverters in a pinch to protect your flanks and rear.

I was thinking of massing knights because of their impact, and their ability to strike wherever I want them to (relatively). However, the thought of him having a big unit of death guard is scary, and as I see it, there are two solutions to win against this: the horde of halberdiers, since the killing blow won't matter, or simply avoiding the unit.

I can't remember if monstruous cavalery like our DG is affected by killing blow? But I don't think it is, since you actually fight the unit as a whole: DG+knight, and eventhough the knight only has 1 HP, the DG has 3. Logic would suggest that it KB doesn't actually work against them.

Killing blow doesn't work on anything with "monster or monstrous" in its type.

You are correct-  you don't want to take regular horse Knights against Grave Guard, if you can help it.

Concerning the ethereals, would you recommend gearing every single character with a cheap magic weapon?

My rule of thumb is to have every decent combat block of mine have at least 1 magic weapon.  Usually I try and stay as cheap as possible.

 
HHG