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Offline The Peacemaker

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North American Comp - 9th edition
« on: August 12, 2015, 07:30:35 AM »
Hello everyone. You might remember my previous post about my NAC comp for revised 8th edition. Since most people are happy with how 8th edition was made and many people are getting excited about 9th age I decided to continue my work but for a 9th edition so I can do more changes.
I did offer my services to the Swede/ETC 9th age people but they said their team was already too big so they declined my offer. So I will make my comp and maybe they will take some notes.

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As before the core rules aren't that bad and the biggest balance issues actually come from the army books where GW overpowered units in order to sell models at the cost of fun gameplay.

I am not focusing this on tournament play as writing rules in a legal fashion takes time/effort and I'm not getting paid for this nor will I ever make money off it so I focus more on writing the rules as intended so that players are able to figure out any problems on the spot while playing instead of looking at the dictionary for minor nuances in word meaning. 

I only tweaked magic a little bit. As a comprehensive change warrants its own package. Possibly a few packages that players can chose which type of magic they like to play with.
I tweaked alot of stuff that was annoying or illogical. Warmachines and Monsters are more balanced.

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I would still like feedback as I this is still Alpha stage.
Keep in mind that if certain units are way overpowered its typically because their army book has overpowered them and not the main rules set. So Dark Elf Warlocks for example will be changed to just be normal cavalry instead of fast cav.

I will also design new units for each army book and possibly write a mercenary army book as well. New units will focus on coolness and customization to allow hobbyists and gamers to have some fun with their collections and conversions. Obviously the new units might be at a premium points costs depending on the army.

If anyone is a little more tech savvy and would like to join my team then PM me. My tech abilities are low so I could use someone to make this into PDF format.


Core rules:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/st21bf2ufohj8nm/9th%20Age%20NAC%20edition%20draft%201.odt?dl=0
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Offline The Peacemaker

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Re: North American Comp - 9th edition
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2015, 07:31:05 AM »
To get the colors and correct fonts please use the dropbox link.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/st21bf2ufohj8nm/9th%20Age%20NAC%20edition%20draft%201.odt?dl=0

NAC – North American Composition

9th Age NAC edition rules
To be used with Warhammer Fantasy 8th edition rulebook.
Sections in red are describing the rules as it is intended to be used. This can be used to resolve any disputes or consistences in rules and/or the reasoning behind the change. Writing a “lawyer proof” rules set is actually quite time consuming to get the exact wording and since this is done for free its just not feasible to do that. Rules as intended section should give players reasoning behind the rule and allow you to make on the spot decisions.


P.13 1” Apart
Change to:
A unit can move within 1” of other units but it cannot end its move within 1” of another unit.
There is a need for clarity but it is subjective to the situation.

P. 24 Rally Fleeing Units 5th paragraph, 2nd sentance
Units that are 25% or less need double 1's to rally.
Apparently there are 2 sections in the rulebook that give contradictory info this page is correct, the other section is in a margin somewhere.

P. 30 Channelling power and dispel dice
A model that generates power or dispel dice rolls a D6 for each wizard level. And generates a power/dispel dice for each roll of 6.
Level 4 rolls 4 dice
Level 3 rolls 3 dice
Level 2 rolls 2 dice
Level 1 rolls 1 dice
Level 0 or a special ability to generate dice will roll only 1 dice.
The magic phase can suffer greatly when winds of magic rolls are 2 or 3. The change in channelling is to make the magic phase more consistent. 

P. 48 – 49 Supporting Attacks
Replace 4th paragraph with:
Combat is a swirling melee with foes striking whoever they can when they get an opportunity to do so. Supporting attacks represent this and therefore can be made against models in base contact with the front rank model that is being fought 'through'. Or can be made against the enemy unit.

This is intended to represent the swirling melee of combat. Having only characters that can be targeted in front protecting the rank and file like a wall is unrealistic. In battle the front lines are typically hectic and not really a line at all, opponents are intermingled, they can run too far in, they can get hooked and dragged to the back ranks and finished off, etc...  Having characters fighting in the front while the back ranks stand around cheering is what challenges are intended for.

P. 48 Who can Strike
Combat is a swirling melee and the front rank represents the soldiers who are always in the thick of it. Because of movement mechanics and just for general clarity we do not typically take models out of formation even though these guys would be moving around and attacking where needed.
A unit's front rank up to 5 models may always strike with their attacks even if the enemy frontage does not touch them and are counted as supporting attacks.
Example: a character or conga line gets into combat and effectively reduces the enemy attacks. In reality the enemy soldiers would just surround this unit.

.....i would like alot of feedback on this. My wording is poor but I think I get the point across.
It might just be simpler to say a unit must form a rank of 5 when possible. That counters conga lines. But it does not counter 20mm size characters who can dish out many attacks while only receiving 2-3models wide worth of attacks.

P. 53 Extra Ranks
The maximum bonus is now changed to +4
This is to increase static combat res.

P. 53, 59, 507(reference chart **) Flank Attack
Remember to read page 507 ** on the reference chart “can only be claimed once per facing, per unit). This means that if both flanks are engaged then you will get +2 total. The main section of the rulebook does not clarify this and on page 59 make it sound like you only ever get +1.
Just a clarification oversight. Engaging an enemy unit on both flanks is very difficult too on the tabletop so if a player can do this then they should get the bonus.

P. 53 The High Ground
Add:
You get +1 combat result if you are clearly on top of a hill or a similar higher ground terrain and your opponent is clearly on the lower ground.
This is just logic. If you hold the high ground your in a better position.

P. 54 Steadfast
A disrupted unit negates steadfast. Monsters are able to disrupt as well. But not Chariots.
This adds a significant amount of strategy to the game. You can still have hard to break units but you must protect their flanks. It also enhances units that are innately stubborn.

P. 61 No more foes
The unit gets to reform.
This is just a logic correction. When units win combat and are no longer engaged they get to reform. Gameplay wise it keeps the game moving instead of having your unit sit around for 1 turn. And its in line with reforming from after you won a combat.

Special Rules

P. 66 Always Strikes First 2nd paragraph
Units with ASF get to re-roll their attacks every combat if their initiative beats who they are fighting against. If both combatants have ASF then they cancel each other and you resolve initiative order normally.
This keeps the feel of what always strikes first does for the armies that utilize it. Requiring a model to beat initiative instead of simply match it creates a strategic and tactical shift in how a general use the units in his army. This also allows other armies the ability to actually counter this special rule by perhaps using elite units in their army that match initiative or use other methods such as spells to affect initiative.

P. 70
Fly and Flying Cavalry.
Characters that have the fly special rule may join units of flying cavalry.
So a Bretonnian lord on a pegasus can now join his Pegasus knights.
Honestly I don't even want to bother re-wording this section because GW made it so overly complicated. Just go with logic on this one, if your on a Pegasus you can join a unit of Pegasi and count as the same type for targeting and such.. Then apply this to any other similar situation.

P. 72 Magic Resistance
Magic resist will give a special save against spells that disallow saves of any kind.
Example: Dwellers below from lore of life does a characteristic test and doesn't allows saves of any kind. This still negates ward saves but because Magic Resist is intended to counter magical effects, you will get a Magic Resist save according to the appropriate MR(1, 2, 3) value
This makes sense fluff. It does buff deathstars but other rules are being changed to shift how deathstar builds operate.

P. 72 Killing Blow
If a model with the Killing Blow special rule (or an attack with this Special Rule) rolls an unmodified '6' to wound with an attack, this attack ignores armour save. Furthermore, if the target is Infantry, Cavalry or War Beast, the attack has the Multiple Wounds(D3) special rule. Unless otherwise specified, a model with the Killing Blow special rule only applies it to its close combat attacks

Heroic Kill Blow
This special rule works exactly as Killing Blow with the exception that an unmodified '6' to wound with an attack provides the attack the Multiple Wounds(10) special rule (regardless of the target’s troop type).

P. 76 Strider
Models with this Special Rule may ignore any movement effect caused by terrain (except Impassable Terrain and Buildings) and never lose their Steadfast or Rank Bonus due to terrain. Sometimes this Special Rule is only linked to a specific terrain, stated in brackets. When this is the case, the strider rule effect is only applied in relation to the specified terrain type

P. 74 Random movement
If the models pivot would make it touch an enemy unit then will counts as charging. Close the door as required.
This is included because some people have gotten confused about when a random mover makes contact with an enemy.


P. 79 Ambushers
A unit with Ambushers may chose to deploy normally.

P. 83 Monster Cavalry
Monstrous Cavalry also use the highest toughness characteristic as well as wounds.

P. 85 Monsters:
All monsters get a 6+ ward save.
This is mainly a 'feel' change for monsters. They are supposed to be big, powerful, hard to kill but on the tabletop they don't feel that way. The 6+ save isn't very reliable but should save the odd wound here or there.
This is also a small change to the overall rules which when combined with how cannons wound and points adjustments should make monsters more viable.

Weapons

P. 89 Close combat weapon
Change to: a model equipped with various types of weapons must chose what weapon to use as the start of close combat. The model must continue to use this weapon and may not switch until combat is over or their weapon has been destroyed.

P. 90-91
Spear(foot): add  +1 to hit
Spears are actually a very good weapon on the battlefield, they are easy to wield and give extra range. Historically this was the infantry weapon of choice.

P. 107 The General
Inspiring presence
Add:  When a general is slain, each friendly unengaged unit within its inspiring presence range must take an immediate panic check.
This is a balance tweak since the generals inspiring presence rule is quite powerful it should have some kind of negative. And it encourages the proper selection of a general rather than just taking a naked level 2 wizard to lead your force.

Warmachines
Black powder missfire chart:
Change Destroyed! - the warmachine takes 1 wound, no armour saves allowed, and cannot fire this turn or the next.

Stone thrower missfire chart:
Change Destroyed! - the warmachine takes 2 wounds, no armour saves allowed, and cannot fire this turn or the next.
 
Cannon:
Change Multiple Wounds(D6) to Multiple Wounds(D3+1)

After much debate and thinking this seems to be the most simplest change. Its nerfs the damage of a cannon but it ups their minimum damage. To balance this nerf, since a cannon doesn't do as much damage it will no longer blow up and giver free victory points. When cannons were designed for this game they were supposed to be high risk/high reward.

p. 127
Buildings and shooting
A building can shoot 5 models per level(same as in the rulebook)
If a building has a parapet or other similar defense than that level is consider to allow 10 models to shoot.
Example: the citadel watchtower has 3 levels. The first 2 just have some windows while the top is a defensive parapet. So the number of models that can shoot per level would be 5/5/10 for a total of 20 shots.

Building garrison limit.
Each building can hold up to 10models per level.
Example: the citadel watchtower has 3 levels so the number of models that can occupy the building are 10/10/10 for a total of 30models.

Players should go over the battlefield terrain and discuss how the various types of terrrain functions. When it comes to buildigns its important to discuss how big it is and what it can hold because while something like a small shack is technically a building it is not the same as a guard tower designed to withstand an assault.

Assaulting a building
Charge reactions: A garrison unit may stand and shoot even if the assaulting unit is within its minimum movement

If the assaulting unit loses combat they are nudged 1” away and may reform.
If the defending unit loses combat but does not break then the assaulting unit will continue the fight and combat ensues in the following combat.

A garrisoned unit is considered steadfast for the first round of combat only.
If an assaulting unit has flaming attacks then the defending unit suffers -1 leadership.
Also remember that flaming attacks re-roll wounds vs models in a building as described on page 69.

Everyone agrees that the current building rules are somewhat wonky. A fortified defensive position is typically difficult to take and the rules do represent that. Changing steadfast to only the first round of combat is more of a mechanic change in order to keep the game flowing.
If one were to do a seige type game, some buildings in a siege scenario should have tougher rules.

Fighting a warhammer Battle

Scenarios like blood & glory and watchtower are key in list balancing. If all you do is play battleline it is very easy to min/max lists. The core rules and units are balanced points wise for general gameplay. The scenarios is what is used to make various units useful and have different roles depending on the situation.

Having various scenarios is key to keeping the game interesting and fresh. It encourages tactics and thinking which is really where the competition is. 

 P. 141  Random Victory conditions for each scenario.
After you have chosen what type of pitched battle to play. You may add Further victory conditions using the following chart:
D6 Extra Victory conditions
1  no extra conditions
2 Add d6+1 objective markers on the battlefield worth 50pts each
3 Add d3 watchtowers to the battlefield worth 100pts each
4 Breaking fortitude first gives 150pts, breaking it second gives 50pts
5 Controlling table quarters gives 100 victory points.
6 You get 50pts for killing Hero level characters and 100pts for Lord level characteres.

I basically borrowed these ideas from various editions of fantasy and 40k. They outline the rules for how to place the objectives and what units can hold objectives and such. We can add those rules later.

Remember that on page 382 of the BRB there are more scenarios to play with.

I intend this chart to be an easy way to give some variety to the scenarios as across the warhammer community there is a clamouring for well written scenarios and to have ones with objectives.


P. 142 The Battlefield.
Sometimes you may not have time to use the random terrain chart or perhaps are setting up a theme board. For every battlefield we do recommend that you have at least 1 building, 1 forest, and 2 obstacles for balance purposes
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Offline Dosiere

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Re: North American Comp - 9th edition
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2015, 11:34:32 PM »
I like your changes to supporting attacks, who can strike, and steadfast.  Under who can strike, I'm assuming supporting attacks from the 2nd/3rd ranks are figured out normally?

Offline CarolineWellwater

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Re: North American Comp - 9th edition
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2015, 04:29:49 AM »
(( Peacemaker,

Some thoughts:

Quick thought... you might want to use F7 in Word... you have a lot of errors in spelling.

Quote
P. 24 Rally Fleeing Units 5th paragraph, 2nd sentence
Units that are 25% or less need double 1's to rally.
Apparently there are 2 sections in the rulebook that give contradictory info this page is correct, the other section is in a margin somewhere.

--> 25% of what?  I'm guessing their original size.

Quote
P. 30 Channelling power and dispel dice
A model that generates power or dispel dice rolls a D6 for each wizard level. And generates a power/dispel dice for each roll of 6.
Level 4 rolls 4 dice
Level 3 rolls 3 dice
Level 2 rolls 2 dice
Level 1 rolls 1 dice
Level 0 or a special ability to generate dice will roll only 1 dice.
The magic phase can suffer greatly when winds of magic rolls are 2 or 3. The change in channelling is to make the magic phase more consistent. 

--> It also super empowers armies that possess multiple channelers, or high power channelers, such as Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, and Empire.  Tomb King armies, alone, often have a pair of Level 4 wizards.  Given your suggestions, that's 8 attempts to channel, each magic phase.

--> I would suggest, instead, that Higher Level wizards add to their channeling attempt, as they can "catch" winds of magic easier.  So, a Level 1 adds +1, while a Level 4 adds +4.

--> Also, are you still keeping the max 12 Power Dice?

Quote
P. 48 Who can Strike
i would like alot of feedback on this. My wording is poor but I think I get the point across.

--> I think you're overlooking that there are several models that have a high "Attack" value.  Given you're current wording, you're favoring units that offer high volumes of "Attacks", potentially offering a unit a free ability to get upwards of +15 attacks.  That's… kinda big.  Not to mention there are a number of spells out there that grant models additional attacks.  To use the Tomb Kings, again, Smiting adds +1 to the Attacks (including the mount), and Smiting can be stack-cast... I'd really not want to face a horde of Tomb Guards that have blessed with Smiting, and who get 5 extra models of attacks.

-->For example, I've seen a standard defense against Ogers is to "shrink-in", in order to minimize the number of Ogers in base-to-base, thus lessening their ability to "Oger-Smash".  Given the "Swirl" option, you're now encouraging Ogers to be more than 3 wide, just to get their volume of extra, free attacks.

--> Also, given the wording, it'll favor players who set up their armies Horde style, in order to get all those free, extra attacks.

Quote
P. 53 The High Ground
Add:
You get +1 combat result if you are clearly on top of a hill or a similar higher ground terrain and your opponent is clearly on the lower ground.
This is just logic. If you hold the high ground your in a better position.

-->As a nitpick, you mean "you're" not "your".  Sorry... it's a pet peeve of mine.

Quote
P. 61 No more foes
The unit gets to reform.
This is just a logic correction. When units win combat and are no longer engaged they get to reform. Gameplay wise it keeps the game moving instead of having your unit sit around for 1 turn. And its in line with reforming from after you won a combat.

--> You might want to mollify this option with a successful leadership test, the unit can reform.  Free reforms are huge, and I think the whole "No more foes" thing also represents units getting exhausted.

Quote
P. 66 Always Strikes First 2nd paragraph
Units with ASF get to re-roll their attacks every combat if their initiative beats who they are fighting against. If both combatants have ASF then they cancel each other and you resolve initiative order normally.
This keeps the feel of what always strikes first does for the armies that utilize it. Requiring a model to beat initiative instead of simply match it creates a strategic and tactical shift in how a general use the units in his army. This also allows other armies the ability to actually counter this special rule by perhaps using elite units in their army that match initiative or use other methods such as spells to affect initiative.

--> As an aside, the vast majority of "Always Strike First" units have Init 5+ anyway (where as the rest of the globe seems to sit at Init 2 - 4)… so… the adjustment you suggest is still a non-issue as the ASF armies will still get their ability to re-roll misses, unless you're having Elf armies fight each other.

Quote
P. 72 Killing Blow
If a model with the Killing Blow special rule (or an attack with this Special Rule) rolls an unmodified '6' to wound with an attack, this attack ignores armour save. Furthermore, if the target is Infantry, Cavalry or War Beast, the attack has the Multiple Wounds(D3) special rule. Unless otherwise specified, a model with the Killing Blow special rule only applies it to its close combat attacks

Heroic Kill Blow
This special rule works exactly as Killing Blow with the exception that an unmodified '6' to wound with an attack provides the attack the Multiple Wounds(10) special rule 

--> So… you are saying that Killing Blow can fail to auto-kill stuff?  Isn't that the whole purpose of "Killing Blow", hence the name?  And, my understanding is that "Multiple Wounds" only goes off after a failed Saving Throw… not before.  Your rule modification also implies that Killing Blow can be stopped via Regeneration as well.

Quote
P. 83 Monster Cavalry
Monstrous Cavalry also use the highest toughness characteristic as well as wounds.

--> I wanna say this was already fixed in a BRB FAQ.

Quote
P. 85 Monsters:
All monsters get a 6+ ward save.
This is mainly a 'feel' change for monsters. They are supposed to be big, powerful, hard to kill but on the tabletop they don't feel that way. The 6+ save isn't very reliable but should save the odd wound here or there.
This is also a small change to the overall rules which when combined with how cannons wound and points adjustments should make monsters more viable. 

--> Something to think about, a Ward Save can be considered "extra wounds", as you normally cannot get rid of  or penalize a Ward Save.  So, if a monster has 6 wounds, and a 6+ Ward Save, it now, effectively, has 7 wounds.  Over a Ward Save, I'd suggest a Regeneration Save (so that it can be countered by Fire), or maybe a "Thick Skin" armor save… of like 4+ or something (which can still be lost via high strength attacks).

Quote
P. 89 Close combat weapon
Change to: a model equipped with various types of weapons must chose what weapon to use as the start of close combat. The model must continue to use this weapon and may not switch until combat is over or their weapon has been destroyed. 

--> Not sure this is needed, as the main rule book is specific that if you have a special weapon, you use it.  About the only unit I can think of that is "multi-equipped" are Black Orcs… and they have a special rule that is "Armed to da Teef" or something like that.

Quote
P. 90-91
Spear(foot): add  +1 to hit
Spears are actually a very good weapon on the battlefield, they are easy to wield and give extra range. Historically this was the infantry weapon of choice.

--> So… now you have 3 ranks (Steady Spears) to 4 ranks (Horde Spears) of troops that are +1 to hit… that's pretty big.  Especially if I'm getting this and the five, free models worth of attacks via "Swirl" you mentioned earlier.  At that point, sheer volume of attacks becomes obnoxious.  One of the reasons that 40k players actually are nervous about Imperial Guard orders like "First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire" is that you get an additional shooting attack for free.  Sure, Strength 3 is low-tier… throw enough of them, and they'll kill you via the death of a thousand paper cuts.

--> Over the +1 to hit, maybe give spears the ability to keep the 6+ parry save, if they have shields as well... though that makes them compete with sword-and-board troops.

Quote
P. 107 The General
Inspiring presence
Add:  When a general is slain, each friendly unengaged unit within its inspiring presence range must take an immediate panic check.
This is a balance tweak since the generals inspiring presence rule is quite powerful it should have some kind of negative. And it encourages the proper selection of a general rather than just taking a naked level 2 wizard to lead your force.

--> This only really penalizes low-LD armies, such as those who sit in a 5 - 7 range.  LD 8 and 9 are fairly reliable, given that it isn't just the Inspiring Presence, but also the BSB ability to re-roll all LD tests that makes a lot of units stick around.

--> Also, if a low-LD army is taking a high-LD general, in order to counter their low-LD, they'll doubly suffer the general dieing effect, as they just lost their biggest bubble of LD... so, instead of testing on a 7 or 8, they're testing on 5 - 6... maybe a 7.  In other words, you're basically telling low-LD armies to just get high-level-wizards, as their entire army will take a Panic test, once their General dies, and high-level wizards give you more attempts to channel per magic phase.

Quote
Warmachines
Black powder missfire chart:
Change Destroyed! - the warmachine takes 1 wound, no armour saves allowed, and cannot fire this turn or the next.

Stone thrower missfire chart:
Change Destroyed! - the warmachine takes 2 wounds, no armour saves allowed, and cannot fire this turn or the next.
 
Cannon:
Change Multiple Wounds(D6) to Multiple Wounds(D3+1)

After much debate and thinking this seems to be the most simplest change. Its nerfs the damage of a cannon but it ups their minimum damage. To balance this nerf, since a cannon doesn't do as much damage it will no longer blow up and giver free victory points. When cannons were designed for this game they were supposed to be high risk/high reward.

--> The reward isn't worth it now.  There is a huge difference in 2 - 4 Wounds (ave 3) vs 1 - 6 wounds (ave 3.5).  3 Wounds barely kills a Pegasus… and you are more likely to just piss the Pegasus off by causing 1 or 2 Wounds.  To me, a cannon ball should slaughter a Pegasus, and turn it into a puff of red mist.

--> The cannon's (or equivalent war machine from other races) ability to kill something outright is more-than-balanced by the fact it already jams 16% of them time, fails to wound 16% of the time, and fails to do more than 5 wounds 67% of the time... and that's not even mentioning the times when the cannon ball sticks in the mud, or falls short of its intended target.

--> As a second example, why would I take a cannon that does D3+1 wounds, when I can take a Volley Gun that can score up to 30 shots… meaning potentially up 30 wounds.  Especially if I still have the 16% chance to jam with the cannon, and the 16% chance to fail to wound with the cannon.  The Volley Gun's Strength 5 is plenty to threaten monsters with.

--> Or, oddly, what you might see would be instead of a battery of two cannons, you'll see batteries of 3 - 4 cannons.

--> Anyway, I hope that helps some. ))
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 04:35:49 AM by CarolineWellwater »