Topic: So gun lines don't really work any more then...

[abdulaapocolyps]

Ok it wasn't an out and out gunline but I put down a list this weekend as an experiment and the main thing that was different was a 40 man unit of x bowmen.  For the record I also had a knight unit, about 8 with my general in, helbalster, cannon, stank 23 great swords, demi chicks 3 archer detatchments, a preist, mage and bsb and was playing my mates orks.

  So anyway I used heavens to reroll missed 1's on my xbows a couple of times and the first point I will make is, for three rounds they where devastating.  I managed to give them flaming and killed 6 trolls and took 2 wounds off another one, I finished off the trolls next turn then reformed deep to try to hold steadfast... and here is where the problems began.

  They just died so very very fast in the face of Orks that I couldn't hold squat for any amount of time, even with a Stank supporting with a flank charge.  I only narrowly lost the game and it was a hoot but my great swords, with no support at all, were great performers for me and the xbow bunker died in 3 combat phases, even with my chars in there.
  I like the tactic and use something similar with gobbo archers when I borrow my mates army, but the key difference is that the gobbo archers have poison, sometimes on 5+ due to the spider banner I put in there and a spell, they come in units of 100 and they, even then, are cheap...

  I know this is no surprise to anyone but yeah, I don't think this really works, I'll put my faith back in my 50 spears and two 25 helbard supports, or 40 helbs or even 40 swords, but the shooting, though made really good with heavens support, is just too flimsy late doors .  Shame, I liked the idea and it gives you some options against Elves (who appear to now be THE gun line army!) and Orks, who are a bugger when played right.

[Mortim]

you should try modifying your army just a bit, so the enemy wont make it easy to your crossbowmen:

for example:

12 Knights IC + Steamtank, both flanking your xbowmen horde. Advance both Knights + tank 1 st turn, its usualy enough to disuade most enemy units to try sneak past them to reach the xbowmen.

Tank                          Knights
     
         Crossbowmen

if you dont wanna use your knights and tank like that, you can also try using other lores to make your xbowmen realy tough in Close combat: Life for +2 or +4 toughness is great or mindrazor for strenght 7 handweapons or even wyssamform should help alot.

but anything that can kill 40 crossbowmen in 3 CC phases could have killed 40 halberdiers just as fast, the difference being the number of casualties taken in the process.

btw I realy Think you should experiment some more with shooters, as it seems more people are Fielding smaller elite type of units nowadays (my impression) and bs shooters do have a use imo vs smaller elite units (18-24 models).

you could also try 2-3 pigeonbombers + 30-40 handgunners/crossbowmen. Unleash pigeons, then mop up with crossbowmen/outriders/handgunners.

try split in 4x10 crossbowmen units and 2-3 fast Heavy hitter units in between your gun line. Move the fast heavies 1st turn to deny/dissuade. Then just shoot

[The Peacemaker]

You need units to mop up after the shooters have whittled the enemy down. It took 3 CC phases to kill the xbows and you could have flanked the enemy. If you have the flank charge already set up then sometimes they won't even charge the xbows because they know they will get flanked and loose.

[Porkix]

It's good to hear about the benefit of a big unit of crossbowmen. I think your army is not a gun line though: one block of crossbow and then 3 combat units: knights, demis, greatswords....

I think you should focus more on denial and die hard units: 1 block of demi and 1 stank to mop-up, and put more shooting 2 hell blasters 1 canon. more archers detachments. No knights or great swords and your characters in the shooting base may be in a 10 man hand gunners with 2 archers detachments. Put in a small witch hunter to help with magic missile protection.

the issue is the very fast armies that get the 1st turn: ogres, warriors of chaos flying circus....

Cheers
Porkix

[abdulaapocolyps]

Interesting comments guys. The stank was my flank charger which didn't stop my mate charging, he knew the combat res would be on his side...
  I agree this kind of thing can work, against elves I've had a ton if success. Against orks... Less so, there are just too many high wound targets with them. Good advice about tge knights and stank advancing though this severely limits what you can target, just as a warning.
  I have to prep for elves and orks as opponents are randomised and am not convinced from an all commers POV, but if you get it right they can be devastating, I'll grant that!

[The Peacemaker]

Units of 10 outriders are needed for an empire shooty list.

[Baluc]

A static gunline has never really been that good. I've been using 3 units of 5 outriders, and I don't think I'm taking infatry guns again. Vangaurd is too good a rule, and they basically have to be delt with, you can't just accept taking 45 s4 ap shots a turn. Esspecially against withered units... They make Turn 1 shadow magic pretty scary actually.

I been deploying them on the flanks of my army, and since bs shooting has basically disappeared people are getting all sorts of frustrated. I usually pair themw ith 4 DGKs with Muso and tear up the flanks of the enemy army.

[Boreas_NL]

Either go all-out or build another list...

And with all-out I really mean all-out: Handgunners, Archers, Outriders, Pistoliers and as much War Machines as you can muster... Spend as little points possible (if any at all) on combat units! Sprinkle with a bit of magic support, maybe a Captain on Pegasus (with a pistol ) and you're set. I am not claiming you can win battles with this kind of approach, but it would be fun to unleash upon an unsuspecting opponent once in a while...

[Porkix]

I concur with Boreas but still think you need 2-3 elements to "clean-up". Stank have both the role of tarpiting things you can't shoot, help with shooting and also cleaning up.
3 demis with musician is also good, captasus is great as well and can help clean opponent's war machines or hunt mages.
So yes go all out but not without a few guys to clean-up.

Anyone as a standard list let's say in 2000pts?

Bare in mind I think gun line are boring but I am still curious to see how good it could be.

Porkix

[Krokz]

The best gunline list for Empire is Hellblasters and Demis. HBVGs clean all big, nasty and not with much wounds models. Demis take care of hordes of infantry that has to many wound count for gunlines. And they mop good to. Core? Chaff, diverters. Stay away from core ranged units if you want to win.

[The Peacemaker]

Outrider gunline is actually fun because you have some movement to add to the strategy.
And gunline is fun if your opponent is gunline or at least has some shooty. Fairly boring when fighting beastmen.

[Mortim]

I Think you guys forget about the Power of the 10 man crossbowmen or handgunner unit:

- its a deployment choice for 90pts, in the age of 300-400+pts units deploying... 90 pts isnt that expensive to get 1 more chance to outdeploy your enemy.

- it hits hard enough to clear chaffs, again in the age of deathstars vs deathstar relying on magic only to clear chaffs, magic is a liability, 90 pts solve that without Power Dice

- its a annoying unit at 90 pts, ignore it and it may well kill 1-2 chaos warriors/White lions a turn which can tip the balance in important fights.

- 10 man is actualy quite resilient vs small chaffs when getting charged, due to steadfast.

Imo, gunline is fine as long as you also have big fast Heavy hitters to slow the enemy/countercharge.

[Lord Roberts]

That sounds EPIC!!

re-try the same list, just give the crossbows 2 archer detachments to re-direct charges!!

I used to LOVE rank and file shooters in 5th, 6th and 7th. But even then they were great early game and then died quickly in combat. In 8th I always figured the units just needed to be bigger to work, sounds like you're on to something!

[Baluc]

I Think you guys forget about the Power of the 10 man crossbowmen or handgunner unit:

- its a deployment choice for 90pts, in the age of 300-400+pts units deploying... 90 pts isnt that expensive to get 1 more chance to outdeploy your enemy.

- it hits hard enough to clear chaffs, again in the age of deathstars vs deathstar relying on magic only to clear chaffs, magic is a liability, 90 pts solve that without Power Dice

- its a annoying unit at 90 pts, ignore it and it may well kill 1-2 chaos warriors/White lions a turn which can tip the balance in important fights.

- 10 man is actualy quite resilient vs small chaffs when getting charged, due to steadfast.

Imo, gunline is fine as long as you also have big fast Heavy hitters to slow the enemy/countercharge.

Tried crossbows again the other day... they did more wounds in combat than with shooting. I think that experiment is done for me. Outriders on the other hand. Even with hardcover, and multi-shot,  I was killing 2 or 3 models a volley. I'm trying to sneak some pistoliers in my list to give me a unit to van guard up and redirect for them now. I can't believe I'm still having so much fun with 8th edition.