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Author Topic: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares  (Read 19472 times)

Offline errantgamer

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #175 on: February 09, 2020, 03:45:39 AM »
I could well believe it's trending towards a more internecine Imperial setting era if the designers want to treat it as the Horus Heresy has been.
At least we might get some rules for the different Empire Province armies out of it...  :-D

Offline Victor

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #176 on: February 09, 2020, 12:04:13 PM »
If all that is true, has it been considered what that would mean for empire armies regarding the level of technology and use of magic? The Colleges of Magic have only been around since the Great War against Chaos. Where do we stand with black power weapons this early on?  :icon_neutral:

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #177 on: February 09, 2020, 12:49:58 PM »
I had been thinking the same thing. Magic should be divine only (prayers), and gunpowder weapons rather limited. As so often , the fluff is a bit contradictory. Dwarfs invented gunpowder by chance in -420  IC. It seems that, before the first Chaos invasion (2302-04), early firearms were known, but sparse in the Empire, but the Chaos invasion lead to the general introduction of improved gunpowder weapons in the Empire inventory. However, Steam Tanks are said to have been invented for the Empire by Leonardo da Miragliano already around 2010, and, although our engineers were able to keep the original examples up and running for 500 years, they are completely incapable of producing new ones. Humbug, of course. The invention of the Steam Tank should have been dated 500 years later.
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Offline Yodhrin

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #178 on: February 09, 2020, 02:18:20 PM »
I don't think they need to make magic non-existent. The Colleges certainly didn't exist, but one of the big strengths of Three Emperors as a setting/era is how Game of Thrones'y it is in terms of power dynamics between and also within the different factions, and there's certainly room in that context for a ruler who's powerful enough relative to the Cult that supports them to establish something organised but smaller-scale. The Wizard's Mansions in Mordheim hint that magic may have been tolerated there at some point, and the Great Library there had a huge collection of arcane lore. There's the old 1E RPG fluff about a school of magic in Middenheim that existed prior to and independent from the Colleges, and while they retconned that into being just a "satellite school" of the proper Colleges in modern background, there's nothing stopping them partially re-retconning that into being a school that existed prior which was then legitimised as a satellite school by Magnus.

Without the self-policing organisation of the Colleges and given the general state of turmoil of the period, there's also more scope for "evil vizier" type figures - warlocks and witches and necromancers who inveigle their way into the good graces of some noble or ludicrously wealthy mercenary leader.

No I don't think magic has to be non-existent, but it does need to be different, both in the fiction and mechanically. And, should we end up with subfactions, there should be incompatibilities of course - your noble can hire a shonky warlock, but not at the same time he petitions the Church of Sigmar for aid; your Middenlander general can call upon a sorcerer from the school in Middenheim, but not if he expects to be accompanied by Ulrican templars.

As for gunpowder, it seems as if the Empire followed broadly the same path that we did IRL with two exceptions - Dwarf-made anachronisms available to the very wealthy, and the warped timescale. It seems like most of the Three Emperors era would have been covered just by the evolution of matchlock firearms, with wheel- and snaplock mechanisms being developed between Magnus and the "present day", and Engineers just starting to experiment with flintlock style mechanisms around the time of Karl Franz. That makes some sense in the context of understanding that war tends to advance the implementation and refinement of new technology, but will stunt theoretical research if it goes on for too long so starving the society of new technologies to implement or refine. 800 years of internecine war punctuated by Waaagh!s and Northmen rampages capped by the Great War would leave little resources for "high concept" research, and there would have been a period of comparative peace following reunification.

How much of an impact that should have on the rules or availability of firearms would depend where in that 800 years TOW ends up being set. Early on they should be a rare and awkward curiosity, by the Mordheim-to-Magnus period merely expensive and cumbersome.

Honestly I'm less concerned with when it's set than whether they're going to "modernise" the setting in a performative way.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 02:22:14 PM by Yodhrin »

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #179 on: February 09, 2020, 03:14:58 PM »
This is what WFRP 2, Realms of Sorcery, p. 22 has to say on the subject:   

Quote
Throughout the persecution, small groups of magic-sensitive individuals (usually from the wealthier classes) managed to find each other and experiment with magic in secret. Some even created their own faltering and limited arcane traditions. The exceptional few of these individuals and groups that did not fall to darkness or simply destroy themselves with their blind fumbling would emerge into the public eye from time to time,
always when plague broke out or wars tore across the land, but these groups never lasted long. Even during the seemingly endless desperation and anarchy of the Wars of the Three Emperors, it was rare that civil or religious authorities would tolerate such occult groups for long regardless of how harmless they insisted they were or how much good they attempted to do. Inevitably, the groups and individuals that openly admitted
having arcane skill or knowledge were eventually killed.
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Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #180 on: February 09, 2020, 04:07:34 PM »
I think there is a greater chance that there will be hireling wizards from Tilea working for coins.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #181 on: February 09, 2020, 04:38:36 PM »
That does not solve the problem: magic was seen as "as an unclean force, responsible for the birth of mutants, the existence of Beastmen, and the source of many ills," whether it is home-grown or foreign. So, based on the existing fluff, one should not expect to see wizards as a standard choice. So, a single lvl 1 wizard, with, as Yodhrin already suggested, no WP, Witch Hunter etc. allowed. And perhaps with some special rules: e.g. whenever the wizard attempts to cast a spell, units within 3" must take a panic test.

On a side note: the Empire Great Cannon is said to have been developed by members of the Imperial Engineers School aka the College of Engineers, which was founded by Leornardo di Miagliano (around 2012).  The first foundry and gunnery school in Nuln (to become the Imperial Gunnery School) was established in the century leading up to the Great War Against Chaos, ergo between 2100 and 2300.
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #183 on: March 23, 2020, 07:54:02 PM »
Interesting they're going right to Kislev.
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Offline Zak

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #184 on: March 28, 2020, 06:29:47 PM »
this gives them a clean slate to actually work on many factions slowly etc. im excited about the changes
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Offline Naitsabes

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #185 on: March 28, 2020, 07:02:44 PM »
and here I thought the whole point of going back to the Old World was NOT to start from a clean slate!
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #186 on: March 28, 2020, 07:26:51 PM »
In Kislev they only have cold slate.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

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Offline Zak

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #187 on: March 29, 2020, 07:45:10 PM »
and here I thought the whole point of going back to the Old World was NOT to start from a clean slate!
I think the old world will be that but flushed out in many more directions. I think the world before became to complicated to keep up with it. Going back to the first few additions there was a very large world but many things got lost or disregarded. I also think they better go back to a 6th edition style of play with a more of a focus on smaller skirmishes. like AOS ( which I hate) has become a very popular game and with Warhammer video games the old world has to come back or that would be a lost opportunity for GW   
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Offline Brother Sutek

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #188 on: April 07, 2020, 11:01:38 PM »
I know I sound like a broken record but as long as they bring back Tilea I'm good. Zak I have to agree that smaller games will help, I also hate AOS, but there has to be a middle ground for those of us with big armies. I don't want to see the madness of 8th because while I liked some of it the size of units and armies in general killed off getting new players. At least in my area that happened.
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #189 on: April 07, 2020, 11:29:42 PM »
I agree, the size of the 8th edition armies was ludicrous for bringing the average new player into the game, and even for a regular player to have ot add to what they had was a pain.  I didn't, and so ended up not playing at local stores when the emphasis was on buy more models, and sometimes to be pulverized against big things.

Had a previous player from back in the 6th/7th edition days contact me to play some 6th edition, after this Covid 19 nonsense of course.  Hoping thta whatever GW puts together for the new WFB brings back a sense of reasonableness to army and units size.  Not betting on it though.
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Offline Zak

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #190 on: April 09, 2020, 04:43:11 PM »
from a business point maybe GW could look into flushing out the world with many different armies to make sales,  then the 8th edition super units? hmmmm
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Offline The Black Knight

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #191 on: April 10, 2020, 07:00:59 AM »
I for one enjoyed 8th edition. Maybe even more than 6 (have been playing since 5th). The big emphasis on infantry was right up my alley. Remember how halbardiers and spearmen were horrible in 6th and 7th?

It just needed some tweaks to really shine. Toning down the killer spells and making disruption negate steadfast were the two most obvious solutions.

I would not mind them scalling things down a little, for the sake of newbies.
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Offline Zak

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #192 on: April 10, 2020, 04:16:25 PM »
agreed I liked 8th as well but I have many armies painted and collected to fielding a unit of 40 whatever is not a big deal. for beginners or those who have smaller units ( that's what she said) stopped because they could not compete in tournaments.
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Offline Vincent of Vega

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #193 on: April 11, 2020, 11:39:43 AM »
In the meantime there is always 6th edition. The resurgence of which  I am enjoying immensely.  A very active FB group and quite a few at our and neighbouring clubs playing and collecting again. There have already been a few small tournaments and campaign weekends.
..Alex

Offline Zak

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #194 on: April 11, 2020, 09:11:14 PM »
In the meantime there is always 6th edition. The resurgence of which  I am enjoying immensely.  A very active FB group and quite a few at our and neighbouring clubs playing and collecting again. There have already been a few small tournaments and campaign weekends.


love it  :::cheers:::
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Offline Gankom

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Offline Midaski

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #196 on: May 11, 2020, 07:04:26 PM »
Oh now that is motivation to finish mine off ....  :biggriin:


















Psst:
I am pretty sure they have been 'unfinished' longer than GP's Mounted Crossbowmen   :engel:

But don't tell him.
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Offline Artobans Ghost

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #197 on: May 11, 2020, 07:27:06 PM »
Oh now that is motivation to finish mine off ....  :biggriin:


















Psst:
I am pretty sure they have been 'unfinished' longer than GP's Mounted Crossbowmen   :engel:

But don't tell him.

I wonít. We had a zoom game on Saturday. There were mounted crossbow men in it but I didnít have the heart to ask if they were his famous ones 😺 I donít think they were as these were painted.
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Offline Midaski

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #198 on: May 11, 2020, 07:47:39 PM »
I wonít. We had a zoom game on Saturday. There were mounted crossbow men in it but I didnít have the heart to ask if they were his famous ones 😺 I donít think they were as these were painted.

Damn - maybe he has finished them, and is just waiting for one of us (me) to tease him again before he goes triumphantly (what?  GP Triumphantly?)       

TA DA and pulls up a pic.

 :biggriin:
Quote from: Gneisenau
Quote
Metal to Finecast - It is mostly a swap of medium. 

You mean they will be using Ouija boards instead of Tarot cards for their business plans from now on?

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Is Fantasy Back - Everything comes round again. Even squares
« Reply #199 on: May 11, 2020, 08:39:18 PM »
 :icon_lol:  Midaski and I both have many unfinished figures. :icon_wink:

The mounted crossbows on the table top this past Saturday were Medieval era (and those are actually from a friend's collection).

The unfinished mounted crossbows I have are all converted from GW Renaissance era bits.  By the way, just to be clear, the 6 unfinished mounted crossbows are not completely painted, but they are table ready, and been that way for years.  They've seen service when playing my 24 point German Lion Rampant army.

However, I'm hoping that the first new picture I post here, and as soon as I can get my website set the way I'd like, will be a picture of those mounted crossbows taken a couple years ago when they were sitting on a painting table next to my 5 knights for the Order of the Golden Lion.

By the way, we're way off topic, but I have 12 Perry plastic Light Cav 1450-1500, and I'm contemplating making 6 of those into into another unit of mounted crossbows. :icon_mrgreen:
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"Until death it is all life." Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra