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Author Topic: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB  (Read 10708 times)

Offline emcdunna

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Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« on: August 20, 2015, 03:25:28 PM »
I believe that AoS has fractured the community. Players are leaving the game entirely, doing only AoS, or sticking with older editions of WFB... but what about everyone else?

I think theres a significant group of us who want something new and fresh, but NOT the blasphemy that GW just put out called AoS. I invite an open discussion on all fantasy battle alternatives, please post all ideas, games, rules, comp packs, etc. that you have heard about, and we can discuss the pros and cons.

Essentially, I want the players like me (who don't want AoS or just an old ed of WFB) to have alternative games or alternative ways to play with their models and still have fun with this hobby.

To start off, theres The Ninth Age, which is going to be an 8th edition adaptation done by Swedish Comp/ETC. If you want to play 8th edition but with the annoying stuff fixed and competitive play to be made more balanced and interesting, I think this is your best bet.

Also, people have mentioned that you can play Kings of War, which is an officially supported game but is A LOT simpler than WFB with an extremely "low fantasy" feel to it. This is for players who are tired of all of the random, crazy, rediculous rules and events that happened in WFB. Hate purple sun? Hate how powerful magic is or how annoying it is to remove models from your movement trays? Well... try KoW.

I have also heard people talk about a Fantasy conversion of Hail Caeser which sounds interesting but I do not know much about this ruleset besides that it has some form of alternating activations and a realistic orders-issuing system where troops might not get to be ordered in a turn sometimes.

There are also many comp packs, rules modifications, etc. made by players for WFB 8th ed, 7th ed, or older ediitions which can suite your fancy if you loved WFB but there was just a few things that frustrated you to no end (like 6 dicing spells to auto win in 8th or cavalry being OP in 7th).

Finally, I would like to suggest Twilight Era. It is an independent and free game which includes many of the ideas present above. Its similar to 8th ed and 7th ed, but has alternating activations similar to Hail Caesor, and is simpler than WFB where it matters (there are no overcomplicated special rules), has interesting tactics but revolves around objectives (besides just kill everything the enemy has).

Here's a link to the overview page: goo.gl/N7Lxdn

Anyways, please review, compare, and discuss but remember that the objective is not to decide "Oh well obviously system X is the best and the rest should go die in a hole", its simply to discuss the multitude of options that area available to us players who don't want AoS or old editions of WFB.




MOD Edit.

ShadowZero provided a summary so far of options and discussions on Page 2, but he made a comment about how he would have liked the info in the original post ....... and I agreed. Hopefully the author is ok with it.


Kings of War:
http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war.html
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php/topic,50699.0.html
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php/topic,50772.0.html
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php/topic,51196.0.html

The Ninth Age:
http://www.the-ninth-age.com
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php/topic,50863.0.html

OpenHammer (is this Ninth Age related?):
http://www.openhammer.org/
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php/topic,50856.0.html

Warhammer Armies Project 8.5 edition:
http://warhammerarmiesproject.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/brainstorming-for-85-ed.html

Eight Edition For Life:
http://eefl.freeforums.net
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php/topic,50775.0.html

North American Comp - 9th edition:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php/topic,50980.0.html    
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php/topic,50764.0.html

Twilight Era:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php/topic,50950.0.html

      
   
WE 8th edition future discussion topics:
If they ruin/shelve Warhammer FB, can we create a hone a WE.com version , 8.10?!
8th Edition Revisions. 3 Suggestions per man.


« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 03:30:08 PM by Midaski »

Offline Alexis

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2015, 04:04:48 PM »
I have always struggled to get into other manufacturers games. I tried Secrets of the Third Reich and Bolt Action, but I am never drawn in as much as I have been with GW. Even using alternative models (and I do) sometimes annoys my ocd because it somehow didn't feel like proper warhammer... but now that WFB is no more, I guess that opens up these barriers.

I have never tried KoW and I don't think there is any KoW in Northern Ireland at all. If there was, I would give it a go, just for the fun. When you say it's simple..just how simple do you mean?
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Offline emcdunna

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2015, 04:46:20 PM »
Go read the overview page.

Its NOT AoS, its just about 10% simpler than 8th ed by redoing some of the more time-consuming special rules to be simpler.

For instance Frenzy in 8th ed HAS AN ENTIRE PAGE OF RULES DEDICATED TO IT. I have written two rules Frenzy and Unruly that together achieve the same thing but with less exhaustive text.

Theres no Panic (which to be honest either didn't matter at all in 8th ed or ruined your entire battle by making a key unit flee) but theres something to replace it.

"Special" units have a lot less random rules exceptions, check out skaven to see more about this... I feel that you can capture the essence of an army and make it fun and playable without writing rules that only apply to a single model or unit.

In other words, Twilight Era is not AoS but it should not be considered "more complicated" than 8th edition.

Offline Gankom

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2015, 05:50:04 PM »
I think he was asking about Kings of War.

Offline ZeroTwentythree

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2015, 05:58:19 PM »
The alternating activation thing I mentioned elsewhere in regard to Hail Caesar was something I was thinking about trying on my own. Hail Caesar has a more WFB-like, "Player A Turn; Player B Turn" structure. It has some similarities to Warmaster, but is different in many other ways. Quick rundown:


Hail Caesar

Any scale of miniatures can be used, and it can be used with almost any basing standard as long as both side are based similarly. Armies are broken up into Units, which are collected in Divisions. Each Division has its own Commander. Units are the basic building blocks of the game, not individual figures. Each unit has a given number of dice it rolls for short range or long range combat, "Clash" combat (first round) and "Sustained" combat (subsequent rounds) as well as morale and stamina stats.

Player A goes first. They issue orders to a unit, or if they are close enough together, they can issue a group order (everyone doing the same thing) to multiple units within a division. Orders are simple directions like, "Move to the top of that hill" or "Charge the unit of orcs with red shields." A roll is then made against the commander's Leadership rating (plus/minus modifiers). Depending on how well the roll succeeds or fails, the unit will try to carry out their order, or potentially blunder about if it's a really bad roll.

To put it very simply, missile and melee combat are done by rolling the number of dice equal to the appropriate stat. The number of dice and the target number to hit are modified based on a variety of things. Depending on how many wounds a unit takes and what their stamina stat is (think of it as a wound threshold) different things can happen -- they can hold, they can be pushed back, fall back, rout, be removed. They may become temporarily Disordered or become Shaken (permanently impaired.) That's really a simplification.

A pool of special rules helps further define troops as stubborn, getting special attacks, etc.

Personal observations:

I've only played a few historical games using HC, but I'm gearing up to try out the Shadow Storm fantasy mod. soon (along with a couple other games.) http://adyswargamesden.com/

At its core, it's fairly streamlined but with a decent amount of detail, and lets you get on with the art of pushing toy soldiers around and rolling dice pretty easily. The game play feels right, and has enough of a random element (command rolls, combat dicing) but without being too over the top. Still, it's probably not for everyone. It's definitely a battle game, along the lines of Warmaster. So if you want to roll separate dice and determine the fate of each individual figure/soldier as with skirmish games and/or whatever WFB is, then this is probably the wrong game for you. Also, if you're looking for a universally accepted "standard" game or tournament game, this isn't going to be a good fit either. Especially as it's an unofficial mod. of a historical game.

I'm basing my figures using a standard 8 across. For simplicity and economy, I am sticking with two deep for all infantry units for now. Depth isn't as important as width (or so I hear :wink: ) so I'm not going to worry too much about the extra figures/ranks for spear, pike and warband type units at the moment. But this means that my basic units are 16 figures. That makes it fairly easy to get armies together -- even if I did go with 24 figures for the deeper formations. I will also have far more units on the table than in a WFB game. I like this in terms of gameplay (waves of troops, holding back reserves, etc.) and army proportions or composition (so I might have 4 or more units of regular troops for every elite unit or monster -- but still field a decent number of those elites/monsters!)

---



The other games on my radar are Legion of Battle and possibly some retro 3rd ed. WFB. I have the misfortune/luxury of focusing on solo gaming (devising scenarios with "programmed" opponents) at the moment -- so I don't need to consider what anyone else is playing. If I find any opponents, I'm not likely to care what people elsewhere in the world are playing, so I'm not as hung up on officialness, how popular or widely accepted a given game is, etc.

Offline Gankom

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2015, 06:28:09 PM »
If we're talking about systems I'd suggest looking at the rules GW uses for the Hobbit game. I don't know if it's the same they used for the older style lord of the rings, it probably is, but my groups been having a ton of fun with it. It's better for smaller games, more like skirmish or morddeim.

It's got alternate activation, round bases without ranks and the rules are a bit simpler, but it makes the game pretty quick and there's still a pretty good range of tactics to use. Especially if you use scenarios. We started off just playing with the LOTR models, but for the past few months we've been treating it just like warhammer and combining some of the rules.

Offline emcdunna

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2015, 06:34:21 PM »
Very interesting about the Hobbit!

It just too bad that the game failed so badly, maybe those rules would be perfect for an AoS style ruleset?

Offline Michael W

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2015, 08:57:55 PM »
LotR is great on a smaller scale.  Once you start getting up in points (1,000+) the game can start to take a really long time, because you are moving every figure individually (or heaven forbid, if you use the "one model at a time" shooting method).

That said, I love that game for siege battles.  Haven't run across another system that captures the "hero charges up the ladder, barely manages to take the top, and then has to hold out against a whole mess of defenders for another turn - and win - so that a friend can join him" element half so well.  Walls do not fall easily, and you feel the grit between your teeth by the time you've taken one.

LotR also had an easy and obvious points basis, so yes, it would make an easy conversion to use Warhammer stuff.
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Offline Gneisenau

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2015, 09:03:13 PM »
LotR is great on a smaller scale.  Once you start getting up in points (1,000+) the game can start to take a really long time, because you are moving every figure individually (or heaven forbid, if you use the "one model at a time" shooting method).

There was a variant with regiment bases though, wasn't there? Battle of the Five Armies or something?

Offline emcdunna

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2015, 09:11:53 PM »
I think LoTR failed because of lack of creativity, you cant make a batman & robin hobbit army for example.

WFB allowed that kind of fun hobbying.

But the rules seem solid! I would love to see an AoS game modified to be like LOTR SBG

Offline stretch_135

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2015, 10:02:14 PM »
LotR is great on a smaller scale.  Once you start getting up in points (1,000+) the game can start to take a really long time, because you are moving every figure individually (or heaven forbid, if you use the "one model at a time" shooting method).

There was a variant with regiment bases though, wasn't there? Battle of the Five Armies or something?

Regiment base version was War of the Ring. Battle of the Five Armies was a standalone game at 10mm scale from '05 I think?
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Offline Gankom

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2015, 10:14:52 PM »
One of the things about the LOTR rule set that's a really nice change, is when combat ends the participants separate and move back a bit. People aren't locked in combat to the death, and if you get lucky on your initiative rolls you can keep running/escaping/repositioning.

Offline emcdunna

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2015, 10:59:43 PM »
That would be perfect as a rule in AoS

Offline shavixmir

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2015, 09:32:01 AM »
The World As Known FBG.

That's what you want!
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Offline Finlay

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2015, 11:44:54 AM »
Frostgrave!
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline emcdunna

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2015, 02:55:47 PM »
What's so great about frostgrave?

And idk man, KoW seemed so boring. It's like fantasy without magic, special rules, or special/rare troops.

Just line up guys and whack each other

Offline Finlay

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2015, 03:43:49 PM »
updated mordheim-esque game based around wizards leading a little group, good, cheap new models, cheap rules and further campaigns and rules promised.
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline knightofthelance

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2015, 04:07:41 PM »
What's so great about frostgrave?

And idk man, KoW seemed so boring. It's like fantasy without magic, special rules, or special/rare troops.

Just line up guys and whack each other

Did you just play battle line or one of the other senarios. Much like 8th ed it's better with the senarios (though the KoW senarios are a bit better than some of the 8th ed ones). Also did you play with the free rules off the website or the full ones (which can still be found for free as the final playtest version). The additional unit and magic items help quite a bit.

023 said it about a different game, but it fits fairly well here too.
Quote
if you want to roll separate dice and determine the fate of each individual figure/soldier as with skirmish games and/or whatever WFB is, then this is probably the wrong game for you

Like most games it does somethings very well and others not as much. I think it's simplicity and faster play give it a pretty big edge over 8th overall, but there are certainly parts of that I miss too.

Offline Midaski

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2015, 04:17:36 PM »
 :icon_evil:

How about this .................



http://doctorwhominiaturesgame.com/
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Offline emcdunna

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2015, 04:28:23 PM »
A modheim-AoS combination does sound very fun, the youtuber Vince Venturella is currently working on a game like this and I cannot wait to try it!

If you check out Twilight Era you can see a game similar to WFB and KoW but without being too overcomplicated (WFB) or too dumbed down (KoW).

Offline shavixmir

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2015, 11:01:07 PM »
No. TWAK...
That's what you should be playing...

And it's free! For the moment.
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Offline emcdunna

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2015, 04:38:20 AM »
TWAk?

What's that?

Offline Darknight

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2015, 11:58:38 AM »
It's Shav's own system.
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Offline emcdunna

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2015, 05:00:38 PM »
Whats it like?

Offline Darknight

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Re: Alternatives to AoS or old editions of WFB
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2015, 05:02:13 PM »
No idea - I've not seen it. But Shav has spoken oft of it, I believe, and may have demonstrated it at the Eurobash. It sounds promising, certainly - Shav seems to have a good grasp on what makes a game good, if I am any judge.
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