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Author Topic: Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)  (Read 2432 times)

Offline goubios

  • Posts: 5
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« on: January 25, 2005, 10:57:22 AM »
well lets get started :

elector count (ench shield,dragon bow,lance)   159pts

wizard 2nd lvl (golden order) sigil of sigmar    115 pts

wizard 2nd lvl (heavens) dispell scroll             120pts

8 knightly orders (inner circle, full command,banner of arcane warding)                                                       288pts

5 white wolf knights (stand, champ)                157pts
 
5 pistoliers (champ with repeater pistol)          112pts

20 swordsmen (full command)                       155pts

20 swordsmen (full command)                       155pts

10 handgunners (champ, hochl)                     113pts

10 handgunners (champ, hochl)                     113pts

great cannon                                                100pts

hellblaster                                                    125pts

steam tank (cannon,steam gun)                     300pts

sum 1994 pts.

as everyone can imagine i tried to create a def vs magic with the wizard in one regiment of swordsmen and the arcane banner in the knights. the wizard of heaven (if the dices are good) will be hiding behind trees,hills or other similar terrain and cast his spells (the major spells do not require to see the units)
on the other hand the major off will be lead by the steam tank accompanied from the knights. the pistoliers follow and shoot targets of opportunity (i wish). the swordsmen will follow trying to block possible counter charges from the flanks
handgunners, ... will err pray to hit something and hold or lure some of the opponents units. as for the hochlands lets say that i believe that some day in universe far far away from here they maybe hit something of importance instead of the usuall birds,antholes,trees and bushes.seriously some times can be helpfull to attract some of the opponent attention
cannon and hellblaster should try to do the best
You can always visit Meganisi to calm after a great defeat

Offline Kulgan

  • Posts: 352
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2005, 11:02:20 AM »
Form your knights into 7 and 6 rather then 8 and 5 = more effectivity

And get some detachments! the detachment rule is probably the best rule/unit in all the empire, runners up would be great cannons and 1+ armour save knights

Offline Jester

  • Posts: 363
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2005, 09:57:50 PM »
swordmen units are a little small, should be 25

btw, don't expect your oppoents to like you with a HBV AND a STANK in your list

am i the only one who frowns upon this? Why does EVERYONE take a stank?

there's 9 left? or something like that, and they must be on the road constantly to make all of those battles.

Offline goubios

  • Posts: 5
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2005, 10:44:03 AM »
jester you are right but let me see am i the only one who has battles against hordes upon hordes of skaven dirty little rats with 4 ratling guns and a ton of 2d6 st5 kind of spells and three rat-swarm bases who holds almost everything ???? or
8 lances of 9 menacing brettonian knights which doesnt wheel after deployment but instead charge in straight line and the only thing that stops them is the end of the table???
every army has a strong unit or characteristic, afterall steam tank can be turn to pieces. in a dice rolling test a skaven warlord with fell blade turn to pieces steam tank in the first round for 8/10 times we tried it or the bonecrusher of chaos....
You can always visit Meganisi to calm after a great defeat

Offline Kulgan

  • Posts: 352
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2005, 11:21:53 AM »
So you are saying Skaven and Bretonnia are invincible?

I doubt it they win every batte  :)

Offline Jester

  • Posts: 363
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2005, 11:30:31 AM »
actually in my exp, they win very few.

Offline Heinrich_the_Grim

  • Posts: 341
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2005, 02:54:46 PM »
nice list, i just wonder what did you o with your fourth character ?, empire has very cheap chars so use all the slots you can!

@ Jester, the steamtank is one of very few elements in the Empire that actually can take a beating, so why do you "frown" upon it ? you probably dont like it becouse you've not got the cash to buy it or you are in one of those player groups that plays with "home-made" rules and have a "leader" that dictates how everyone in your group should and must play their armies. and another thing, The HBVG is not a cheesy thing together with a Steamtank, a hbvg almost everytime blow up and thats free points for the enemy, the steamtank is very easy targets for enemy shooting and High strenght models. AND its VERY expensive for what it does against certain armys and against certain armys its a bless.(all this has Alessio cavatore explained in the steamtank rules)
if you wanto give constructive advise to someone's list do that, dont complain about the list.

sorry that i took my Crusade to your topic Goubios.
Kill them all, let Sigmar sort them out.

Offline RGB

  • Posts: 1379
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2005, 06:40:38 PM »
Tanks are odd and a bit too powerful at times. On the other hand, if they can field a dragon, I will certainly bring my tank.
[in the good of life]

Offline goubios

  • Posts: 5
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2005, 11:16:15 PM »
of course kulgan and jester i am not saying that Skaven and Bretonnia are invicible to be exact skaven player forced to retreat from game in the second round when i played with chaos because he has lost at the end of second round his grey seer,2 clanrats units and i managed to pass fast cavalry at his flank. i just refered to some common lists for these two kinds of armies which works very good because they take advance of their special characteristics.
as long as the fourth character my noble Heinrich_the_Grim i am trying to squize in some way a captain with pegasus for march blocking tactics and war machines hunting
You can always visit Meganisi to calm after a great defeat

Offline FrancisC05

  • Posts: 183
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2005, 04:35:08 AM »
id  swap some of the hero items out. For the EC take relic AMI and great weapon. I have taken the bow w/ my peg captain. I don't think that the bow is worth it on anything else. I didn't even think it was worth it on my captain. take a rod of power. on the sigil hero. or just drop the sigil. Take another hero either a priest on barded steed. any type of captain or another wiz even then spam power stones.

If you have the models i would beef up the spears and if you have the models i would take a 6th pistolier and beef the knight hammer up to 10 and priest in. If you dont' want the boost to 10 drop it down to 6. The knight sizes i found to be the most beneficial are 5/6 and 9/10. Most important though is to get some detachments on the swordsman, for now if you don't have the models i would give them each a gun detachment and get rid of the hotch. Hotchs are really only good if you have a lot of them like 4+, with only two it takes a long time to kill 1 wiz or even just 1 champ.

Offline Jester

  • Posts: 363
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2005, 12:46:15 PM »
@Heinrich_the_Grim Actually, i'd like to address your post.

1st off: I actually only play at the store, or in tournaments. I don't have a "gaming group" as i'm a frat guy, and none of us would get caught dead playing with toy soldiers (and yes, Playing in GW is a safe place to play, no one who would catch ya ever goes in there ;)

2nd: Now that've addressed your "Reason" i would frown at a HBV steam tank, let me give you some that actually count. If you had bothered to read through my post and consider it, you would of noticed that i mentioned that there are only 9? or so of them left in the fluff. And yet they manage to show up in every 2000 point list from here to tim buck too. a 2000 point battle is basically a skirmish. If your army does not have a reason to have a tank in there, it really shouldn't.

3rd. It's a SECOND HBVG in his list. Do you enjoy Skaven lists with 9 Ratling guns in 2k? cuz i can field it for you if you like. How about SAD army? The Tzeench Beastmen? nothing like a 70-100 model army sporting 17 power dice. The reason is that HBVG's are rare to begin with, and in my opinion should be 1 per 2000 points, 2, and let alone in a tank, well i find that a little over the top for a 2k game.

4. Right HBVG's almost always blow up. Who are you trying to kid? if you say it enough times, maybe it will become true for you. lets break this arguement down into two parts.

a) Let us say he fires it out of the stank. 1/6 chance of the first barrel, 1/6 in the second, 1/6 in the third. Chances are he's going to get at least 6 Str 5 -3 AP shots out of it, as they are independant events, actually there is a good chance he will get 18 out of it. not to mention the "Backup" one he will also have INCASE that one malfunctions.

b) okay, lets say your right! it Almost aways blows up! in that case it does not tatically make sense, and take both out of your army! spend the points on things that WON"T blow up!

btw, try and fit goreman in there... *rolls eyes*

@ Heinrich_the_Grim, There's a name for people who take armies like that... and i think w all know what it is. People bring lists like that once. The second time they face the old Grif, Peg Peg, Dragon, 4 cannon, 3 unit of knight list.

Offline goubios

  • Posts: 5
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2005, 08:44:13 PM »
come on Heinrich_the_Grim there is no reason to make a crusade against house rules everyone can make suggestions according to this experience. to be exact i had the same problem when i thought the concept for my list because there are only 9 ST. jester is right but we cannot start thinking this kind of things because warhammer world is still a world with green people, magic and dragons. you must see warhammer as a kind of chess with rules and tactics multiplied by the people who played,plays and will play in the future and all of this ignoring the parameter of dices, so if GW says that i can field 1 st per 2000 list i will...
and something else of course i do not play VG with the steam tank,only cannon in order to be the most common version to warhammer "reality" just to stay in stay in concept as close as possible.

as long as magic phase and models. skaven 14 power dice about 180 - 200 (only slaves and clanrats) models and if someone does not penetrate and reach the flank of the army the 5 from 8 units has leadersip 9 or 10 i do not remember to be exact...
You can always visit Meganisi to calm after a great defeat

Offline FrancisC05

  • Posts: 183
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2005, 03:29:57 AM »
heinrich the grim. I agree with jester about the stank. The problem with the stank is that it is imbalenced and should never have had a place in the game. If you ever go to a tournament you will find that most people feel the same way. Therefore, when you get your army score you will find that it will be somewhat lacking. It is 300 points of imbalenced gaming. Also you won't just get docked in your army score, but probably in your sportmanship score too. People can create power lists. with lots of cheese, or they can create fun lists to play. Also try playing against someone with a stank. When ever i play people with a stank. Most of their stratagy falls into having the stank.

Offline FrancisC05

  • Posts: 183
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2005, 03:36:21 AM »
Also heinrich We would all appreciate it if you kept the atmostphere friendl. Don't take potshots at jester, becuase if you look up steam tank posts you will find that many feel the same way. Also Empire isn't supposed to have units that can take beatings. The army simply isn't built for that. The idea is you can hold almost any uber unit or mabey a uberunit +something combination with an infantry block for about 1 turn then you can flank it and win through cr.

Jester is right opponants won't like you for taking the stank...

Offline Jester

  • Posts: 363
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2005, 08:17:08 AM »
@ Hernrich, btw, last comment, I drive a 2005 Saab, and you're telling me i don't have the money to buy a steam tank?

. . . . . maybe my last car could of given you that impression... a 99 Audi A4 *rolls eyes* but i'm sure my Saab clears it up.

i'd like to build on francis' point a little and invite you to look up the steamtank a little, and secondly, about atmosphere, you're on the internet, you don't know anything about me, and i don't know anything about you as a person. Please refrain from making personal comments. I could say that chances are i beat up kids like you in the playground (Given the fact i'm upper class, popular jock group throughout school, and most gamers are generaly unathletic and middleclass) but who knows, you may of been a heartbreaker and have ajob that pulls in 500K a year, what do i know? Even with odds on my side, i still woudln't persume anythign about you, and i'd ask that you show the respect on the forum not to slight my socal class, popularity, wealth, ect, because like i said, you have no clue.

We've all got huge genitalia, it's all good, we don't need to try and take pot shots at eachother. Keep the comments to the game.

Offline Heinrich_the_Grim

  • Posts: 341
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2005, 09:25:21 AM »
@ jester , i've not said you DONT have the money, i said you "probably" dont have enough cash (as a reason you dont have a steamtank not becouse you might be a poor child that hides in a store becouse people might think your a nerd becouse you play warhammer)

and another thing. (since you surprisingly dont know your empire history) there is 8 steamtanks, not 9.

you say that becouse of the fluff say that steamtanks is rare then they should be that in tournaments aswell. great, so why dont you complain about people taking Elector counts aswell there is only 10 elector counts in the empire or why not go and tell other armies that use for.eg. Vampire lords, dwarves DoW in greenskin armies, in chaos armies etc etc.

in the last tourny i was in there was 4 Elven players and all of them had a dragon! there were like 6 empire players but only 1 army had a steamtank. what does that tell you?

in the last tournament i had a steamtank in i got 25 points for being "mr nice guy" (30 pts was max, so i was the second nicest player there) and that tourney i was the only one using the steamtank!, about 30+ players played in it so dont think that the steamtank makes the player unfriendly, its the "hype" against it that does it, and how you use it.
Kill them all, let Sigmar sort them out.

Offline Midaski

  • Sunny Sussex, England
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  • Posts: 11895
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2005, 10:11:40 AM »
Gentlemen I think you need to tone down this discussion please.

The Parade Ground is for the discussion of the tactical merits of army lists.

Opinions on the use of 'units' should be confined to their tactical use and merit, not on personal feelings of their validity in the game - GW make them, include them in their army lists and they are there to be used if you wish - that is a personal choice.
Random speculation of non-gaming reasons why players use them should not be going on.

I see that FrancisC05 has started another discussion in the Electors' Forum, which is probably the better place to discuss the validity of the Steam Tank as a Fantasy concept.
However I trust that thread will stay polite as well.
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Offline Jester

  • Posts: 363
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2005, 10:14:26 AM »
well we can carry this discussion on in the other forum now, read my replys there.

just to address this comment tho, 8 makes my point stronger, tho i apprecaite the correction, and i don't oppose to elector counts because people rarely take them as "Elector counts" they're just a character type.

i'd have a problem if everyone took boris trodbringer for example.

Elector count is everything for burgomiester, to captian of the gaurd, to town mayor

a tank is well... a tank ;)

the problems i have with balance, (HBVG for example not taking up an additional rare slot when in a stank, ect) i have addressed in the other forum. Please direct further comments there :D

Offline goubios

  • Posts: 5
Is it good enough ?????? (2000 pts)
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2005, 09:19:32 PM »
very well then after the problem is solved we can open up another discussion about the usage of handgunners in an empire army. the extra - 1 armor save of handguns or the extra 6" of the crossbow is the best solution for an army?
You can always visit Meganisi to calm after a great defeat