Topic: Clash of the humies

[plaguelord]

Any ideas on how to compose a Empire army capable of crushing the Bretonians...I'm playing a small 1000pt battle on Wednesday night and need some tips as I've never played the Bretonians... it looks to be a grim confrontation for the empire as their "reliance" on missile weapons can be impeded by the Lady in the Lake... and the Bretonian charge is intimidating to say the least.
I'm also pretty new to the Empire army, so any tips for this confrontation would be great:

1 helblaster
1 cannon
5 knights of the white wolf (inner circle +command)
5 regular knights (inner circle +command)
5 huntsmen
20 helbediers with command
1 captain with full plate, enchanted shield + magic sword (which one?)
-he should be able to challenge, and defeat even a mounted Bretonian lord.
detachment of 8 handgunners
Level 2 wizard with wizards staff

Like I said, I'm new to this list, so please help if you can?
I'm concerned that infantry, even with detachments, would be impoten vs Bret knights, as they dont get rank bonuses, and 2+ armour saves are a bit daunting for the empire rank 'n files...
Thanks...

[Atchman]

In a 1000 pt game, you will be seriously challenged.  His army will be small and compact, probably a couple of lances of knights.  

His lances will be pretty small, but he can outcharge you with his longer charge range.  The good thing is he probably won't take the Banner of the Lady.  

You may want with a couple of blocks of infantry, prefeably one with shields, like swordsmen.  The high WS of the swordsmen will make it harder for him to hit with his knights of the Realm.  

Pistoliers are effective against Brettonians.  The stupid prayer shouldn't effect them in close combat, since it is against shooting, and close combat is not shooting (but it could be argued that the rule applies).  

I would probably go with a pegaus rider if you have one.  If your blocks of troops can hold the enemy up for a turn, a timely charge could possibly break them.  If I had an opportunity to charge a small Bret lance with a Pegasus rider, I would try it.  The combination of 3 ST 6 attacks and 2 ST 4 attacks might even break them or tie them, taking away their charge (with some lucky dice rolls).  In addition if you have a cannon, he can march block.  

In a 1K game, I wouldn't take any wizards. Probably just a hero on a pegasus and your general on foot, with the Sword of Sigismund.  

Rough list may look like:

General, FPA, Shield, Sword of Sigismund=110 pts

Battle Captain on Pegasus, Lance, FPA, Shield=114 pts

19 swordsmen, full command=165 pts

Detachment of Halbediers (5)=30 pts

Detchment of 5 handgunners=40 pts

19 swordsmen, full command=165 pts

Detachment of Halbediers (5)=30 pts

5 knights, musician only=123 pts

Special Choices:
6 pistoliers=114 pts

Great Cannon=100 pts

You have some marchblocking with the pegasus, pistoliers and knights.  That will give you time to get a lucky cannon shot "down the throat" and take out some expensive knights.  

If you haven't played against them a lot, two arguments are sure to occur.  One is how many knights are hit when a cannon ball gets to them.  I've always played it as whatever is hit, but only one can be hit per rank.  So with a hit through the front guy and through the unit, straight down the middle you can hit 3.  Others say it max at their rank bonus.  In the case of a lance of 6 Bret knights, it would only be one.  

The other argument is whether the pistols in close combat are effected by the Lady's prayer (if applicable). It is clear from the rules that is against shooting so you should be good to go there.  

Lastly, remember that the front figure in the lance formation must see the enemy to charge them.  A unit of pistoliers moving within 1" of the side of the lance, can block it up very well.  They will have to maneuver around them in order to do anything.

[rufus sparkfire]

I'd just like to say something about pistoliers vs the Lady's blessing. Now I don't have the rules for the blessing in front of me, but as Atchman said it works against any form of missile weapon.

The pistol is unique in being listed in the rule book as both a missile weapon and as a hand to hand weapon - it effectively has two 'modes'. In the shooting phase, or when using a stand and shoot reaction, it is a missile weapon. In combat however it is treated the same as any other hand to hand weapon with special rules, like a halberd or a flail.

Keeping this in mind, it is clear that the blessing works against the pistol when it is used as a missile weapon, but not when it is used in hand to hand.

[Vincent of Vega]

I hate to disagree, especially with my love of all things 'shooty', I really don't think you can claim that the beloved weapon of the pistoliers is anything other than a 'missile weapon' when it is fired. I appreciate it does indeed have a different mode when used in close combat as you say but this different mode, the fusillade, still involves firing the gun and therefore needs to overcome the Blessing of the Lady first.

fusillade (noun) -
 1. rapid simultaneous discharge of firearms

Regards
Alex

[Boris Todbringer]

But it is still used as a H-t-H weapon, and while the dictionary definition explains it as shooting, the Lady's blessing won't do much good at point blank range, would it? It counts as a close combat weapon in close combat, and as a ranged weapon when they aren't in H-t-H.

[Totmacher]

When pistols are discharged in the HTH phase, they don't count as missile weapons.  Game mechanics over fluff in this case.

[IH8Skaven]

HtH weapons says I.  How else could we get hatred rerolls with the accompanying WP if it was still treated as shooting during hth combat?

I also have to say plaguelord that you are taking a mighty gamble with this armylist against the Brets.  You've pretty much have decided who is going to win by whether or not his blessing is going to work.  I'd incorporate some of Atch's ideas if I were you.

I know how to lose to the Brets in spectacular fashion, so trust me on this one.

Definitely take a Peggy rider if you have one.  This is one of the safest armies he can face.  Magic being his only realistic danger.  (Bret players tend not to waste points on archers.)  Get in there and block his lance from moving straight forward.

[Vincent of Vega]

I consider myself over ruled!.....

I know how to lose to the Brets in spectacular fashion, so trust me on this one.  

So do I !

The only hope for the Empire is to dictate the pace, if you can this then you can deal with those Knights.  March block as much as you possibly can and as Randy said get in between them with small units (not skirmishers) and jam them in.  
If you get the option to pick your scenery pick as much as you can to make it awkward to move those unwieldy lance formations.

Rear attacks are devastating for them but difficult for the Empire to get in.

Cheers
Alex

[inspectormidget]

if i were u i would drop the cannon and replace it with a mortar (so god against bretonian) and dont bother with wizards then get pegasus and a unit of pistolers. great cannons are useles against brets

[intrepidjohnny]

hmm... altough I have never played against bretonnians I always considered great cannons as a perfect weapon against bretonnia... lots of armour and the lance formation

[rufus sparkfire]

I would have thought that the mortar is hopeless against Bretonians - st 3 with only -1 to saving throw. How many knights could you realistically expect to kill with that?

On the other hand, a Halfling Hotpot might be quite effective...

[plaguelord]

...well the Empire army at the beginning of the post did indeed get crushed last night... but it was a truely enjoyable battle.
I managed to ambush the Brets lone wizard and almost killed her in round 1... The Bretonian knights took 4 turns to reach my infantry lines due to some 'dancing' on my part around a rather large village in the tables centre. The great cannon scored 2 direct hits which were both nulified by the Bret prayers...before it was charged down by a  knight on a pegasus. The Helblaster killed the fleeing Bretonian wizard before blowing up with its 3rd shot...that was fun...sigh... The Bretonians sole infantry block eventually succombed to my knights after 2 round of combat... and thats where the wheels fell off, the lance formation inevitably struck, broke the infantry...and the fat lady sang...
Lessons learnt:
A lot of scenery rendered my detachments almost useless... detachments need a large area to monouvre properly...
I gained magical superiority... and failed to exploit it... I had really unlucky spell rolls though (lore of beast- spells 1 and 2)
My artillery could have turned the game early with a bit of luck... in hindsight I should have beefed up my infantry... they had no real answer to the Bretonian charge... if they had held, the Brets would have been counter charged by 2 units of knights.
EMPIRE RULES!... they have so many complex interactions that I failed to exploit... I really look forward to mastering the use of the detachments especially... and thanks to everybodies advise! I have 2 games vs dwarves and skaven this weekend... I cant wait to get my steam tank painted... next time those Brets are gonna bite it!