Warhammer-Empire.com

The Campaign Archive => Nemesis Crown Board => Topic started by: Mark Perry on July 24, 2007, 06:19:11 PM

Title: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Mark Perry on July 24, 2007, 06:19:11 PM
Just has to tell you about a battle I had today, and was wondering if anyone else was having this problem with the stunties. I played this guy I know, hes ok a nice guy. I was waiting to play a game against chaos when he asked me if I wanted a game so I said ok.

Anyway I had
2 blocks of swords with 9 sword detachment
2 x 5 nilla knights
5 IC Knights
7 Outriders
2 Cannons
20 Flaggys
3 W/P
1 General on a Griffon
HRL

he took the cheesiest list I have ever seen

Anvil of Doom
Organ Gun
3 Cannons
2 Bolt Throwers
Rock Thrower
3 x 10 Thunderers
BSB

All with Engineer upgrades and a master engineer.

He castled on a hill, and over 6 turns I managed to flog my way up to his position and broke through his lines, and got a solid victory, but boy was it hard. That anvil is so hard it stopped my units marching so they had to face more shooting.

Has anyone else noticed the dwarf playing ubber hard lists, which may explain their position on the leaderboard?

Also he had "Forgotten" his ID number and army name so it only goes down as a unregistered victory - after all that work.
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: wissenlander on July 24, 2007, 06:59:42 PM
Tough battle Mark.  I'm not sure if it's a result of specific lists or just a good solid army backed up by some average to awesome generaling (depending on the player) that has caused their high showing.  The one Dwarf player I've had a chance to play thus far didn't have a cheesy list at all, and he didn't sit back in a castled position either, which through me off because I was expecting it.
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Captain Tineal on July 24, 2007, 07:44:08 PM
We've had about 5 new Dwarf players show up at our store in the last couple weeks!

Uhg I hate fighting Dwarfs more than anything.
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Duke Igthorn on July 24, 2007, 08:04:16 PM
I certainly dont think all (or even most) Dwarf players take "cheesey" lists. Though that list you mentioned is cheesey IMHO. There are bad players and cheesey lists for ALL armies.
The reason Dwarfs are doing well is probably for two big reasons.
1) They have a very good website and are really working together.
2) Dwarves are tough opponents in a one-off game.
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Wyzer1 on July 24, 2007, 09:21:09 PM
I certainly dont think all (or even most) Dwarf players take "cheesey" lists. Though that list you mentioned is cheesey IMHO. There are bad players and cheesey lists for ALL armies.
The reason Dwarfs are doing well is probably for two big reasons.
1) They have a very good website and are really working together.
2) Dwarves are tough opponents in a one-off game.
<rant> (kinda)
And its almost impossible to make a bad list? And the standard dwarf list is tougher than most other balanced list? And they are nearly invulnerable to magic? And its probably the easiest army to play (Brets are negotiable)? And its impossible to flank them due to oathstones? And they have extremely tough core infantry backed up by awesome shooting and war machines? And they can kill nearly any "threat" (as in fast stuff) to their army at will with an anvil? And they have awesome average leadership, and rarely run away (although if they do they are mince-meat)? And they get miners on top of all that (so if you don't rush them they will hit your rear)? And their characters are extremely tough/armored making it extremely hard to kill them?
</rant> (kinda)

I am not sure, but I think they only disadvantage dwarves have is that they are slow, which if you castle or use Thorek negates the only advantage your opponents likely have over you (IMO)

Seriously, against Dwarves, if the general is decent/good and tries to make a decent list (or just includes Thorek) he will probably never lose (especially if the enemy list isn't tailored to dwarves)

I have never faced a dwarf player that didn't make a list that would qualify as power-gaming, and I have never faced a dwarf player who didn't castle
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: clausewitz on July 24, 2007, 11:20:21 PM
Correct me if I am wrong Mark, but it seems your opponent took 5 special units?

It certainly is a horrible dwarf list, you did very well to get a win there.  I agree that playing against lists like that is rarely much fun ("Ok, your turn... to roll some dice"  :roll: )

I said to someone before the campaign started that I expected the dwarfs to do well.  It is a forgiving list against all but rather good opponents due to the toughness/armour/Ld/firepower.  If two inexperienced players are playing, and one is dwarfs, I would bet on the dwarves winning.
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: wissenlander on July 25, 2007, 10:35:06 AM
I do remember that comment Clausewitz.  Good call on that one.  Having a legion of allies at your back surely doesn't hurt either it seems.
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Wyzer1 on July 25, 2007, 08:20:06 PM
Correct me if I am wrong Mark, but it seems your opponent took 5 special units?

It certainly is a horrible dwarf list, you did very well to get a win there.  I agree that playing against lists like that is rarely much fun ("Ok, your turn... to roll some dice"  :roll: )

I said to someone before the campaign started that I expected the dwarfs to do well.  It is a forgiving list against all but rather good opponents due to the toughness/armour/Ld/firepower.  If two inexperienced players are playing, and one is dwarfs, I would bet on the dwarves winning.
ya, you and me had that conversation (I think wissenlander jumped in a couple of times to)

The highlighted point was the Battle for Skull Pass box, and the dwarves romping the gobbos and getting numerous pts for dwarves
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: clausewitz on July 25, 2007, 08:28:10 PM
Quote from: Wyzer1
ya, you and me had that conversation (I think wissenlander jumped in a couple of times to)

The highlighted point was the Battle for Skull Pass box, and the dwarves romping the gobbos and getting numerous pts for dwarves
Good memory Wyzer, that was exactly how it went.  :-)

And hey... look how well the O&G are doing.  :wink:
I do remember that comment Clausewitz.  Good call on that one.  Having a legion of allies at your back surely doesn't hurt either it seems.

The allies certainly help, but I think its the dwarf rating itself that is the reason they are getting "winning" fluff.
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Veldemere on July 26, 2007, 09:24:49 AM
I have always felt that if you wanted a WAAC army dwarves are the ones to go for, I had not even thought of the BFSP players out there, grrr!

I am struggling enough though with VC as my opponent has just discovered the Banshee BSB combination, we play 750 points usually and he is just creaming me with the banshees maneauverability and scream, then being able to go into flank charges and the BSB cancelling out my outnumber advantage, being unable to hurt him (etherial) he only needs to do one kill (not including the scream each round as well) and it starts to get sticky for me as well.

This coupled with taking 2 bases of spirit host means I am really suffering!
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: clausewitz on July 26, 2007, 12:07:45 PM
Ah the nefarious Count Olaf...

Sounds like you need to up your magic offense Veldemere.  Lore of Light is pretty nasty against VC.  And if he's not bringing a S7 vampire then the War Altar is going to be hard to deal with as well.

Ah, I just noticed you are playing 750 points.  So if your opponent has a banshee, 2 bases of spirit hosts and a BSB then that must be nearly half his army.  What else does he have, I figure his army must have a weakness having spent so much on expensive, but small, units.
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on July 26, 2007, 01:59:59 PM
I have always felt that if you wanted a WAAC army dwarves are the ones to go for, I had not even thought of the BFSP players out there, grrr!

I am struggling enough though with VC as my opponent has just discovered the Banshee BSB combination, we play 750 points usually and he is just creaming me with the banshees maneauverability and scream, then being able to go into flank charges and the BSB cancelling out my outnumber advantage, being unable to hurt him (etherial) he only needs to do one kill (not including the scream each round as well) and it starts to get sticky for me as well.

This coupled with taking 2 bases of spirit host means I am really suffering!

how about a peggi captain with sword of might? well if you have rank and file he wont get a bonus for the flank because the banshee has no unit strength of 5 so no bonus and no cancelling of your boni so with standard, ranks and outnumbering she shouldn^t be a problem. Also as far as i know a banshee can only scream when she enters the combat with a charge but not in subsequent turns.
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Duke Igthorn on July 26, 2007, 02:21:19 PM
I have always felt that if you wanted a WAAC army dwarves are the ones to go for, I had not even thought of the BFSP players out there, grrr!

Wow. That is a hilarious statement. :icon_lol: Any army can be WAAC. Its not the army,its the player.....
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on July 26, 2007, 03:09:05 PM
jep but some have lots of choices what kind of cheese you want to top your army with the empire goes with gorgonzola only with the war alter steam tank combo. Wooedelves for example look like they own their own cheese factory.
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Veldemere on July 26, 2007, 03:37:00 PM
Ah the nefarious Count Olaf...

Sounds like you need to up your magic offense Veldemere.  Lore of Light is pretty nasty against VC.  And if he's not bringing a S7 vampire then the War Altar is going to be hard to deal with as well.

Ah, I just noticed you are playing 750 points.  So if your opponent has a banshee, 2 bases of spirit hosts and a BSB then that must be nearly half his army.  What else does he have, I figure his army must have a weakness having spent so much on expensive, but small, units.

Quite right, there was only a unit of skeles and the necro, just hate that I am being an arse and trying to make an set up that is not working work. Really should change that list!
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: clausewitz on July 26, 2007, 06:02:20 PM
How about a unit of IC WW Knights* with the War Banner?

If you want to be really nasty add a BSB with Icon of Magnus and Sword of Might.  Lots of CR, magic attacks and plenty of S5 attacks to crush a skeleton block if necessary.

(*representing the Hunters of Sigmar of course)
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on July 27, 2007, 11:07:57 AM
you could also field a captain with a dragon bow....snipering that damn banshee...she already claimed to many souls.
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Mark Perry on July 27, 2007, 04:22:38 PM
It was some special army list he got from somewhere? But if trouth be told hes a good player, but when you have that much shooting, iof you dont destroy the units attacking you before they hit your lines, your a gonner. Thats what happend to him, I advanced as quickly as I could and gave him to many units to shoot at, as a result most of my infantry made it with detachments to his lines. My knights got slaughterd but that was their job.

In the end I had about 900 /1000 points left, he had about 700, I had 3 table quaters and killed his BSB so solid victory. Doesnt help when he has 7DD +2 for dispelling, and cancells out all rop in 12" of his BSB.
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: clausewitz on July 27, 2007, 04:39:08 PM
Special army list?  Did he purchase the Bumper Book of WAACy Army Lists?  :-D

You are quite correct Mark, that is the big weakness of gun line type lists.  And the only way to prevent that is to... roll good dice for your shooting (and have your opponent roll bad for panic).

If he's a good player I'm surprised he would use a list like that.  Unless his usual gaming circle play that kind of list.  As it has so little chance if he ended up playing an army with a lot of ambushing/tunnelling units.
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Mark Perry on July 27, 2007, 08:47:40 PM
No hes not ususly cheesy, but I beat him quite bad last time and he was out for revenge.
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Veldemere on July 28, 2007, 09:41:40 PM
Well lets hope now you both have a scalp the battles can be more balanced in the future
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Mark Perry on July 29, 2007, 08:12:02 AM
Its 2 - 0 to me so God knows what he will bring next time
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: FatOlaf on July 29, 2007, 03:23:56 PM
Also as far as i know a banshee can only scream when she enters the combat with a charge but not in subsequent turns.

I'm afraid that's not true, she can (pardon the pun) 'carry on screaming' as long as she wants in CC.

And as for that Dwarf list, It's just the expected army composition round my house. I will never forget the battle where the dwarf player shocked me to the core by

a) bringing infantry units
b) ACTUALLY moving them!

With the current army book how it is and GW's blatant favouritism towards the stunties (the rules for the Organ gun are insane!) I have developed a deep deep hatred of the race and face the prospect of a battle against them as a chore instead of a fun game of WFB that I so love and enjoy.

The irony is that if my Dwarf opponent were to bring his other army instead, he would be fielding that tactically diverse, fun army....................Brets!

Thankfully I have Veldemere to fight reguarly, I so love it when he fails his Fear tests!  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: machine-child on August 21, 2007, 11:05:55 AM
You have a interesting and diverse choice of armies to play against. I think I'd commit suicide in your case FatOlaf  :cry:
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: clausewitz on August 22, 2007, 08:22:40 AM
This is fairly close to a case of Threadomancy machine-child.  Better hope the inquisition isn't watching!
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: machine-child on August 22, 2007, 08:58:52 AM
This is fairly close to a case of Threadomancy machine-child.  Better hope the inquisition isn't watching!

Hey, it was still on the first page so i figured... might bring it up for the good of everyone. Threadomancing is not necessarily a bad thing.
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Blood axe the Slayer on August 22, 2007, 09:12:20 PM
Also as far as i know a banshee can only scream when she enters the combat with a charge but not in subsequent turns.

I'm afraid that's not true, she can (pardon the pun) 'carry on screaming' as long as she wants in CC.

And as for that Dwarf list, It's just the expected army composition round my house. I will never forget the battle where the dwarf player shocked me to the core by

a) bringing infantry units
b) ACTUALLY moving them!

With the current army book how it is and GW's blatant favouritism towards the stunties (the rules for the Organ gun are insane!) I have developed a deep deep hatred of the race and face the prospect of a battle against them as a chore instead of a fun game of WFB that I so love and enjoy.

The irony is that if my Dwarf opponent were to bring his other army instead, he would be fielding that tactically diverse, fun army....................Brets!

Thankfully I have Veldemere to fight reguarly, I so love it when he fails his Fear tests!  :icon_mrgreen:

LMAO!
Yes, GW blatantly favors Dwarves.  :icon_lol:Check out the rules for "Rangers" and get back to me.

The Helblaster got nerfed, thats too bad. The Dwarves have an Organ gun, so what? I don't hear any Empire players talking about getting rid of the War Altar. Of course thats very fairly balanced, right?? :icon_lol:

Yes, its very intelligent to take all infantry in a Dwarf army without Strollaz or an Anvil. M3 and I2, -1 pursue/flee opens up all kinds of tactical options. :icon_lol:

Not all Dwarf armies are "cheesey" just as not all Empire armies are. The potential is there for ALL armies. I play a pretty balanced Dwarf army.

This was good for a laugh anyway.
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Veldemere on August 23, 2007, 01:27:53 PM
The inquisition are always watching, they even have a special division whose sole purpose is to watch the inquisition watching to make sure they are.


but......

who will ensure they are watching the inquisition watching.........

Quick we need to hire more inquisitors!
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Wyzer1 on August 23, 2007, 03:55:51 PM
The inquisition are always watching, they even have a special division whose sole purpose is to watch the inquisition watching to make sure they are.


but......

who will ensure they are watching the inquisition watching.........

Quick we need to hire more inquisitors!
Now wait a tic, if we get a budget increase its going to the Inquisitions recreational service budget... We need to show the Empire our lighter side to...  :happy:
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Veldemere on August 27, 2007, 06:15:55 PM
hmmmm taking care of your own greed before the greater need, how very evil. Welcome to the Inquisition.
Title: Re: Dawrf Cheese
Post by: Wyzer1 on August 27, 2007, 11:24:36 PM
hmmmm taking care of your own greed before the greater need, how very evil. Welcome to the Inquisition.
BAH! We are not Evil!?

We are morally exempt  :closed-eyes: