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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => Empire 8th Army Book => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Special => Topic started by: jturner on May 13, 2009, 12:24:13 AM
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hollaaaaaah.
Edit : title spelling corrected. :icon_redface:
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yup return fusillade to pistoliers and outriders.
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No.
It is not necessary. So many Empire players loved this rule, but you have to move on.
Besides, there are better options (such as an introduction of Demilancers - openning a new thread for this one)
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This is the third time I have asked, so just what is fullisade?
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Fusillade is the pistoliers 6th edition rule where for the first round of combat they could attack with both pistols. Essentially it was an extra attack, coupled with the 6th edition rulebook which allowed pistols to be shot the first round of combat. So they had 2 attacks at s4 -2 AS plus the horse in the first round when they charged.
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In 6th edition pistoliers could use pistols in close combat also granting them two attacks S4 armour piercing each, if you add a WP you could go up to 12 attacks S4 in the charge all armour piercing it made pistoliers quite deadly on the charge.
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It was a great rule and didnt need removing and should be the first one back in, maked pistoleers a choice over outriders again (which I hate as the most broken unit in the empire and utterly lacking in fluff, though I may be alone in this)
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I hate outriders. 18 shots from 6 guys is silly. Then again Fullisade makes Pistolers too good.
Mogsam
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I hate outriders. 18 shots from 6 guys is silly. Then again Fullisade makes Pistolers too good.
Mogsam
But fusilade is only on the charge, 1st round, its like knights with lances, the shock of impact to break the enemy, if they hold, uh-oh.
How about giving pistoleers (and any other missile armed mounted troops) the "fire AND flee" option, which represents how they were more used?
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We already have the pistoliers, AND kislev. Just incorporate them like they used to and let the kislevites be the demilancers. The fullisade rule gave the pistoliers an opportunity to have some punch when they charged...but only that. I got wrecked by a unit of dwarf x bowmen because I charged them...in the rear! Tipped the game to a draw from a win (mine).
Furthermore, coupled with the fact that they no longer can even possible get a rank bonus, it minimizes their real impact in a 7th ed world.
Fullisade makes sense. Would you be whipping people with your pistol butt if you had loaded pistols and were charging into combat?
How about this. If the unit chooses has not shot in the previous shooting phase, they may use the fullisade rule?
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If the pistoliers have fussilade, always s&s and no penalty for moving and shooting should be removed. Frankly I like those more. I think the flee & shoot would be nice though.
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Or the option to unleash a volley when charging (like S&S), to take away rank bonuses or something.
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Or just make it so that fusilade only works when the pistoliers in question are charging, and not simply on the first round of combat.
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I hate outriders. 18 shots from 6 guys is silly. Then again Fullisade makes Pistolers too good.
Mogsam
But fusilade is only on the charge, 1st round, its like knights with lances, the shock of impact to break the enemy, if they hold, uh-oh.
How about giving pistoleers (and any other missile armed mounted troops) the "fire AND flee" option, which represents how they were more used?
Great minds think alike...
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=14298#p183477
I think MJ's suggestion is more suited to the pistoliers though.
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I hate outriders. 18 shots from 6 guys is silly. Then again Fullisade makes Pistolers too good.
Mogsam
But fusilade is only on the charge, 1st round, its like knights with lances, the shock of impact to break the enemy, if they hold, uh-oh.
How about giving pistoleers (and any other missile armed mounted troops) the "fire AND flee" option, which represents how they were more used?
I could get behind that. :::cheers:::
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Bring back the fusillade!
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If no fusillade then for sure go with fire and flee, and other WAB light cavalry type rules like fall back in good order and fast march.
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Fire and flee gets my vote as well.
It just feels more ... right.
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But how do humans get it when elves don't? Being faster, more agile, more dexterous and all?
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Training, culture, aptitude for war...same reason no one else has detachements, empire has better cannon then dwarves, dwarves forgot how to make flamethrowers, Empire forgot how to use warwagons etc.
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Back in 5th edition, High Elf Ellyrian Reaver Knights had a fire and flee special rule in which they could fire and then flee using 1d6 less then normal...if I remember correctly.
As for fusillade, Pistoliers have been fairly balanced in both 6th and 7th edition despite their radically different function. Giving Pistoliers fusillade without changing how pistols work will make them a crazy versatile unit...and probably increase their points cost.
For fluff reasons, I tend to prefer the way they function now, as a harassing unit that tries to stay out of combat.
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Another idea I'm thinking could be to make Fusilade operate as a hybrid between Lance Formation, and the Screamer slash attack...
Declare a unit you wish to fusilade against during the charge phase. You must move full speed at it, but may move through the unit. When you do, all your front-rank and flank pistoliers (think Lance Formation) may perform their shooting attacks against the unit. Units may elect to flee but can be caught/destroyed as normal...if they escape, the pistoliers move foward as a failed charge...
Pistoliers can attempt to fusilade multiple units in a row, provided they're all on a straight line and they can move their full 16".
Of course, I would probably like to see Pistoliers as core still but that seems to have people angry...
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Fusilade makes pistoliers more powerful on the charge than knights. Leave it out.
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I agree... if Pistoliers are too good in hand to hand, we'll never need to get inner circle knights. That's a bad thing.
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Of course, this is still only a turn 1 affair, and if the unit doesn't break (stubborn/unbreakable units are the rage these days), then the pistoliers will die...horribly. I didn't see people complain about it in 6th edition (of course we had the superhellblaster then) so why complain now?
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Inner Circle Knights were still core back then. Now they compete directly with pistoliers.
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Of course, this is still only a turn 1 affair, and if the unit doesn't break (stubborn/unbreakable units are the rage these days), then the pistoliers will die...horribly. I didn't see people complain about it in 6th edition (of course we had the superhellblaster then) so why complain now?
I had plenty people complain about the Fusillade rule in 6th... and now that I think back on it, the number and strength of attacks that a unit of Pistoliers could dish out on the charge seems like something more suited to a proper combat unit, not Light Cav.
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I'm ok without that 6th edition rule.
And I like how the pistoliers function currently. :icon_biggrin: :icon_cool:
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fair enough. Give the rule a points cost, and make it an option. Those who want to make their light cavalry harrass and run away experts can do so and also those who want to make them gun blazing fragile as lightbulbs shock troops can do so too, in the same army even.
I call 2 pts per model.
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Why?
In the old ed they were just as expensive with the fussilade, why increase their cost for something they had which made them strike fear(and pistol clubs) into the heart of the enemy.
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Apparently some people figured the old format of pistoliers was too killy for compatibility so they were nerfed, probably the same guy who figured that skinny elves who wrestle lions are stronger than beefed up human twohanded swordsmen.
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You know for people who apparently play games and then "improve" upon the armies, they dont seem to do to well.
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now that we have half points available I actually call 1.5 points per model for fussilade. Better yet let players decide which of the two formats of pistolier they want to take, caracole charlie, or hakaa paalle Harry.
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I like how the pistoliers are now, though they arn't based on their fluff just yet.
something that would make great sence fluffwise (as stated excactly in their fluff) They should get hit and run. So:
Fussulade: In a shooting fase if the unit of pistoliers havn't marched but have taken a shot at they enemy, then they can make a normal move (non marching).
So this way you get: Move 1"-8" > Shoot > Move 0" - 8"
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I like how the pistoliers are now, though they arn't based on their fluff just yet.
something that would make great sence fluffwise (as stated excactly in their fluff) They should get hit and run. So:
Fussulade: In a shooting fase if the unit of pistoliers havn't marched but have taken a shot at they enemy, then they can make a normal move (non marching).
So this way you get: Move 1"-8" > Shoot > Move 0" - 8"
that is almost word for word the "parthian shot" rule from warhammer historical and yes I would give that to the pistoliers, and Outriders too for that matter, and it's a given that high elf ellyrian rider ought to have such a rule. just as a side note it seems to be worth about 2 points in warhammer historical.
but specifiacally being able to shoot both of your pistols while charging into a combat then being able to continue to fight with a hand waepon and one pistol is what fusillade was all about. Perhaps the rule should be renamed festooned with pistols for clarity. To represent the pistolier being armed not with two pistols but with several allowing him to continue to fight with pistols in close combat those being a weapon in each hand.
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Give them a brace of pistols.
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Yes it needs to come back. that was what gave pistoliers there charm. And would actually make them worth taking
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As far as I can tell the historical equivalent of pistoliers were the Hakkapeliitta Cavalry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakkapeliitta).
The greatest advantage of the fast and lightly-armored Hakkapeliitta cavalry was its charge. They typically had a sword, a helmet, and leather armor or a breastplate of steel. They would attack at a full gallop, fire the first pistol at twenty paces and the second at five paces, and then draw the sword. The horse itself was used like another weapon, as it was used to trample enemy infantry.
So I can see why people call for the Fussilade rule. However, in order to make things more comparable to the actual tactics I'd propose the following:
When charging:
Resolve one shot/model on long range (giving -2 to hit. -1 for the charge and -1 for range).
Resolve 1 shot/model on short range. (-1 to hit)
In close combat: Fights with hand weapon. (Rilly the same thing sa brace o pistols).
This charge would not be as overpowered as the Fussilade was, but it'd still fit the unit.
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The difference between 20 yards and point blank (5 yards) is negligible when you consider they were shooting into a formed regiment. The fussilade rule fairly accurately represented this even if it was a shocking force that is precisely what they were shock cavalry for their day. The hakka pelliters and curraisiers or Corazzen as they were also called in italian were the two types of cavalry that existed concurrently at the end of the renaissance and early modern period. Eventually the light horse or ringerpferd became dominant as pistols became more common occasionally light horsemen would carry as many as 6 pistols at the knee on their saddles harness to use in the shock of first contact. More usually however the horsemen wouldn't need the multiple shot in a sustained battle as they would either drive off their enemy at once or wheel to retreat reload and return to charge again, the Warhammer ancients battles ruleset is very good at representing this aspect of cavalry warfare with their fall back in good order rules which can be applied to all cavalry and skirmishers and drilled troops. Drilled cavalry have a bonus to the normal rules of fall back in good order.
I'm done even trying to convince fantasy players to adopt or even try out WAB any more I'm just going to play it with my friends and have oodles of fun in the die rolling.