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The General Archive => Empire Army Book 8th Edition => Rare => Topic started by: Ganymede on May 14, 2009, 01:45:53 AM
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Steamtank – 300 Points
Rare
M WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Steamtank 7 3 - 6 6 6 1 S 10 1+
Equipment: Main Cannon, Steam Gun
Special Rules: Cause Terror, Large Target, Unbreakable, Ironsides, Crush and Grind
Ironsides – With several exceptions, a Steamtank is treated like a normal chariot.
• Steamtanks are not uniquely vulnerable to strength seven or higher attacks in the same way as regular chariots.
• The Steamtank counts as a war machine and not a chariot in regards to spell effects and special effects (Beast Cowers, etc.) that target these types of units.
• Similarly to war machines, Steamtanks are immune to poison.
Crush and Grind – When it is the Steamtank’s turn to attack, it inflicts d6 strength 6 hits on one enemy unit in base contact, distributed like shooting. Note that these hits are in addition to the d6 impact hits that the tank inflicts when charging.
Main Cannon – A shot from the Main cannon is resolved exactly like a shot from the smaller cannon in the rulebook with the exceptions that the shot has a strength of seven, a maximum guess range of 24”, and utilizes the Steamtank Misfire Chart. This weapon may not be used in a Stand and Shoot charge reaction.
Steam Gun – A shot from the Steam Gun is resolved exactly like a volley of grapeshot with the exceptions that the steam tank has a 360 degree Line of Sight when firing the Steam Gun and utilizes the Steamtank Misfire Chart. The narrow end of the flame template is placed in base contact with any edge of the tank’s base. This weapon may not be used in a Stand and Shoot charge reaction.
Steamtank Misfire Chart – 1: The weapon fails to fire and is destroyed. The Steamtank suffers d3 wounds with no saves allowed. 2-3: The weapon fails to fire and the Steamtank may not fire any of its missile weapons in its next turn. 4-6: The weapon fails to fire but is unharmed and may shoot as normal next turn.
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Holy shit this must be a joke. That set of rules blows. Maybe if it was 150 and a Special would those rules make sense.
Look the Steam Tank was common and encouraged in 5th edition Empire armies. The fact that everyone hates them in 7th edition is only because it didn't show up for most of 6th edition. The Steamtank is no overpowered and fine in its current state. The only thing that may be changed is the fact that it doesn't give half victory points. And maybe give it some gun options.
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Imho the stank is fine as it is now. In fact it should be 250pts in my honest opinion!!
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Holy shit this must be a joke. That set of rules blows.
Let's try and be a little more constructive, my good man.
I don't think this set of rules is very good either, but that's because I don't think the current steam tank needs much changing, so something so drastic is definitely unappealing.
Maybe bring back the option to convert your steam tank with helblasters, troop platforms, etc. That's about all I think needs to be done.
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The current Steamtank is a hellish chimera of over two pages of superflous, unnecessary, and droning rules. This rewrite provides the inherent essence of the steamtank without reams and reams of special rules.
While the steamtank does lose a little with this particular incarnation of the rules, it also gains a fair amount.
One advantage that the steam tank gains is that it never has to worry about the steam point system. The steam tank is no longer crippled by a pair of wounds. Additionally, there is no risk of self harm that comes with expending steam points.
With this advantage comes a bit of a drawback. The steamtank has been downgraded from ten wounds to six wounds. This change makes the beast a little less survivable to missile fire. Such a change is mitigated by two facts. As mentioned before, this new steam tank can fight at full strength even after suffering five wounds. The current steamtank would be virtually useless once it suffered five wounds. Lastly, and more significantly, the new steam tank has a weapon skill value. Enemy models now have to roll to hit against the beastie. Against many foes, this means the steamtank has a similar resiliancy in melee combat that it had originally.
Overall though, my goal here was to streamline the rules of the steam tank while maintaining its awesome battlefield presence.
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While you make some good points, I do prefer the current rules.
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One thing I would point out is that this steam tank is just as resilient in close combat as the previous version, and in some instances more so. Consider that those wishing to swing at the steam tank now have to roll to hit against weapon skill three when the previous tank afforded automatic hits. Against WS3 troops (such as kroxigors, steam tank specialists), this tank will have the mathematical equivalent of 12 of the old steam tank's wounds.
Another point that factors in here is the incredible vulnerability of the tank in your opponent's phase. Not only did the original tank allow for automatic hits against itself, it was also unable to attack at all. Basically, the old steam tank sat there like a big lump of metal and did nothing for an entire turn. With this version, the steam tank will be dishing out the wounds in every combat phase, unleashing a respectable amount of strength six hits every time.
Also remember the slew of benefits that come with chariot movement. While this steam tank cannot march, it gains a number of other boons. Consider that this new steam tank can charge a unit, break it, and now run it down! This incarnation of the steam tank can make pursuit and overrun moves. The beast goes from no pursuit to pursuit with the much desired 3d6. With the tank's pretty solid hitting power and respectable charge reach, I have a feeling that the movement you lose from the lack of marching will be made up by those pursuit moves.
One final advantage, and I feel the greatest advantage, is that there are no more steam points to worry about. Other than eliminating a complex, silly mechanic, it offers one more bonus: no more steam mishaps. Before, working the tank at peak efficiency meant that there was a not so slim chance the tank would do nothing at all. Planned charges would fail and cannon shots across the flank would falter. After the tank has eaten a cannon ball of catapult stone (three wounds), the risks from steam generation grow exponentially. At that point, the use of more than one steam point is a risk, and more than two is downright suicidal. This steam tank always charges 14", always inflicts 2d6 impact hits on the charge, and always works at peak efficiency no matter how much damage it has taken.
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2D6 impact hits is what disappoints me. The rest looks decent, though points would need to be dropped to probably 220 IMO.
Good rewrite Ganymede.
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I don't know. This thing is a lot cheaper than an ancient stegadon mounted by a skink priest with the impact hit lance.
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One advantage that the steam tank gains is that it never has to worry about the steam point system. The steam tank is no longer crippled by a pair of wounds. Additionally, there is no risk of self harm that comes with expending steam points.
This here shows me you don't understand critical elements behind the design of war machines. The Steam Point system is a high risk high reward system with a random element. What you're doing here is making the Steam Tank less random, less unique, and honestly less epic. Warhammer Fantasy is not chess, if you want to minimize the influence of dice play something else.
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One advantage that the steam tank gains is that it never has to worry about the steam point system. The steam tank is no longer crippled by a pair of wounds. Additionally, there is no risk of self harm that comes with expending steam points.
This here shows me you don't understand critical elements behind the design of war machines. The Steam Point system is a high risk high reward system with a random element. What you're doing here is making the Steam Tank less random, less unique, and honestly less epic. Warhammer Fantasy is not chess, if you want to minimize the influence of dice play something else.
This here shows me that you don't understand this guy.
Let's try and be a little more constructive, my good man.
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Tbh I think GW should just get rid of the steam tank altogether. Its a retarded invention anyway.
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The steam tank is great as is.
It can be epic in combat however it is easily countered as well there is no need to change it and Ganymede replying with 1/2 page responses trying to convince us isn't likely to work but as flaming Ganymede isn't likely to change his opinion.
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Tbh I think GW should just get rid of the steam tank altogether. Its a retarded invention anyway.
::heretic::
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One advantage that the steam tank gains is that it never has to worry about the steam point system. The steam tank is no longer crippled by a pair of wounds. Additionally, there is no risk of self harm that comes with expending steam points.
This here shows me you don't understand critical elements behind the design of war machines. The Steam Point system is a high risk high reward system with a random element. What you're doing here is making the Steam Tank less random, less unique, and honestly less epic. Warhammer Fantasy is not chess, if you want to minimize the influence of dice play something else.
This here shows me that you don't understand this guy.
Let's try and be a little more constructive, my good man.
::adjusts monocle:: Ahem, old bean, let me take a stab at this.
::clears throat in distinctly British tone, the sort of throat clearing that typically comes with a thick handlebar moustache and a few too many years in Her Majesty's service:: You see, the Steam Tank rules, as currently written, are indeed complex and have their drawbacks. I for one agree with this.
You state that the tank loses a great deal of its effectiveness as it loses wounds, and to me this is not a drawback, this is to be expected with something as complicated as a steam tank. Tanks are complicated devices, and it seems natural and fitting to me that it should become less powerful as the armour is punctured, the vavles rattled, gaskets blown loose, and crew wounded by shrapnel and miscellaneous pointy bits. One could argue that perhaps the tank is overly punished for wounds, but tweaking this system is, for me, more in line than discarding it for one where the tank can be tottering about on one cracked wheel (wounds wise) and be just as effective as full strength. I know, I know, monsters are in the same boat, but we don't have dragons in our world for reliable comparisons. Perhaps mythical beasts are just that professional to tough it out under extreme duress.
Secondly, you remark that with the current rules, the tank just "sits there like a big lump of metal". Well, that's what tanks do, old boy. They're not particularly proactive about fending off sword-wielding maniacs. The enemy should get automatic hits, because it is the general nature of tanks to apathetically sit there and let people stab them when they are close enough to do so. I agree that having a whole turn with no combat response is absurd, and needs to be fixed. Why can't the engineer pop out of his hole and shoot in response? Perhaps the tank gets 1d6 S4 Armour Piercing shots every enemy turn in retaliation, to represent the crew firing handguns (or pistols, tweak the stats accordingly) out of strategically placed portholes, or maybe a free blast from the steam cannon each turn (doubtful, this seems too powerful but it's a thought). The variable factor comes from not necessarily being able to shoot at every porthole with equal ability. I think this works better than making it a chariot type device with a weapon skill; chariots have mounts to pull them, crews to defend them, and sometimes even scythed wheels. All the tank has is a crew contained within its mammoth depths, and I for one think if it's going to defend itself, that crew should be its only option.
Again, I don't think tanks should be able to make pursuit or overrun moves in the same fashion as a chariot. Chariots, you can simply whip your steeds and drive after the foe. Tanks need to be put into gear, pressure built up, etc, and all that comes after your heavily blinded and deafened to the outside world crew realizes the enemy is in full flight.
As for the steam points system, it is indeed complex, and I think unfairly punishes the tank for wounds (it does lose much effectiveness very quickly). However, I feel that these rules more closely fit the image, and imagined gameplay, of such a device than yours.
That is my respectful and reasoned disagreement. Care for a spot of Port, old chap?
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::adjusts monocle:: Ahem, old bean, let me take a stab at this.
::clears throat in distinctly British tone, the sort of throat clearing that typically comes with a thick handlebar moustache and a few too many years in Her Majesty's service:: You see, the Steam Tank rules, as currently written, are indeed complex and have their drawbacks. I for one agree with this.
You state that the tank loses a great deal of its effectiveness as it loses wounds, and to me this is not a drawback, this is to be expected with something as complicated as a steam tank. Tanks are complicated devices, and it seems natural and fitting to me that it should become less powerful as the armour is punctured, the vavles rattled, gaskets blown loose, and crew wounded by shrapnel and miscellaneous pointy bits. One could argue that perhaps the tank is overly punished for wounds, but tweaking this system is, for me, more in line than discarding it for one where the tank can be tottering about on one cracked wheel (wounds wise) and be just as effective as full strength. I know, I know, monsters are in the same boat, but we don't have dragons in our world for reliable comparisons. Perhaps mythical beasts are just that professional to tough it out under extreme duress.
Secondly, you remark that with the current rules, the tank just "sits there like a big lump of metal". Well, that's what tanks do, old boy. They're not particularly proactive about fending off sword-wielding maniacs. The enemy should get automatic hits, because it is the general nature of tanks to apathetically sit there and let people stab them when they are close enough to do so. I agree that having a whole turn with no combat response is absurd, and needs to be fixed. Why can't the engineer pop out of his hole and shoot in response? Perhaps the tank gets 1d6 S4 Armour Piercing shots every enemy turn in retaliation, to represent the crew firing handguns (or pistols, tweak the stats accordingly) out of strategically placed portholes, or maybe a free blast from the steam cannon each turn (doubtful, this seems too powerful but it's a thought). The variable factor comes from not necessarily being able to shoot at every porthole with equal ability. I think this works better than making it a chariot type device with a weapon skill; chariots have mounts to pull them, crews to defend them, and sometimes even scythed wheels. All the tank has is a crew contained within its mammoth depths, and I for one think if it's going to defend itself, that crew should be its only option.
Again, I don't think tanks should be able to make pursuit or overrun moves in the same fashion as a chariot. Chariots, you can simply whip your steeds and drive after the foe. Tanks need to be put into gear, pressure built up, etc, and all that comes after your heavily blinded and deafened to the outside world crew realizes the enemy is in full flight.
As for the steam points system, it is indeed complex, and I think unfairly punishes the tank for wounds (it does lose much effectiveness very quickly). However, I feel that these rules more closely fit the image, and imagined gameplay, of such a device than yours.
That is my respectful and reasoned disagreement. Care for a spot of Port, old chap?
Damnit! Too big to sig! However...
::adjusts monocle:: Ahem, old bean, let me take a stab at this.
...
That is my respectful and reasoned disagreement. Care for a spot of Port, old chap?
That is sigged!
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TBH it's a shame stanks can't overrun or pursue as it means they can never capture banners which can be really galling.
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TBH it's a shame stanks can't overrun or pursue as it means they can never capture banners which can be really galling.
Pretty hilarious to see an engineer jump out of a stank, dodge all the cannon,s bullets and whatnot, pick up a flag and hop back in.
Plus, how would a steam tank overrun? It's damage is done by crashing into things, how would it cut down loads of running people?
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I'm not saying it should I'm just saying it can be damn annoying.
In my tourney recently every banner was worth 150 vps instead of 100 in one battle. My steam tanks would have captured 2 banners (out of 5 on offer- I got the other 3 with my knights). So instead of winning by 3300 points I won by 3000... like I said GALLING!
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Then perhaps we may have finally found a flaw in your tourney list?
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Then perhaps we may have finally found a flaw in your tourney list?
Maybe... I still won by 3000 pts to 800. My list isn't the craziest list possible imho.
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One advantage that the steam tank gains is that it never has to worry about the steam point system. The steam tank is no longer crippled by a pair of wounds. Additionally, there is no risk of self harm that comes with expending steam points.
This here shows me you don't understand critical elements behind the design of war machines. The Steam Point system is a high risk high reward system with a random element. What you're doing here is making the Steam Tank less random, less unique, and honestly less epic. Warhammer Fantasy is not chess, if you want to minimize the influence of dice play something else.
This here shows me that you don't understand this guy.
Let's try and be a little more constructive, my good man.
::adjusts monocle:: Ahem, old bean, let me take a stab at this.
That is my respectful and reasoned disagreement. Care for a spot of Port, old chap?
The game of warhammer is filled with abstractions. We abstract everything from the swooping flight of a dragon to a volley of cannon fire. You wish for the rules to have a fidelity to the way a steam powered tank would actually operate on the battlefield, but such a level of fidelity and detail is not seen in any unit anywhere in the warhammer armybooks. When a person suffers several grievous wounds, he naturally does everything in a limited capacity. Such is not true within warhammer's abstraction of warfare. By asking that we reflect such "realistic" minutae into the ruleset, you are asking that the steamtank be a collossal exception to the rest of the warhammer rules.
Secondly, tanks do not just sit about like a lump of metal. It is a bit silly to imagine that they do nothing at all in the opponent's turn. If you are interested in seeing how a fantasy style tank would act in combat, feel free to check out the opening scenes of the movie Wild Wild West. In this film, we are treated to a steam tank rapidly accelerating and reversing in an attempt to crush soldiers. The tank even whirls in place, batting away anyone who would attempt to jab a sword through a vulnerable component.
Personally, I'd rather the steam tank operate in a way that was similar to other units in the warhammer world. While the current steam tank is not as bad as the one in 6th edition, it still remains a unit defined by many, many exceptions to the rules. The unit still remains, "Steamtank: The Minigame."
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I can see your view, and it is apparent we must agree to disagree.
I think a few minor changes, such as retaliatory shots during the opponent's turn and tweaking steam point and wounds, is all that's necessary. You clearly feel a complete overhaul is what is needed, and it is obvious we shall not agree on this issue.
Nothing wrong with that, I'm just remarking that it seems there is no point to further discussion, as neither of us will be swayed.
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Nothing wrong with that, I'm just remarking that it seems there is no point to further discussion, as neither of us will be swayed.
Bah! Nothing but good can come from reasoned dialogue.
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I have the perfect answer to the problem. Just get rid of it and then there is no problem. It is a stupid iddea anyway, quite like the mec horse in that way. Give the rate that steam trains exploded, stopped working or just broke down in the early days I think that maybe the steam tank should have to take some kind of test to see if it blows up after every wound or something.
A steam tank would be impossibly complex to run so the very fact that there is one fits it in with the rest of the warhammer rule structure.
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I have the perfect answer to the problem. Just get rid of it and then there is no problem. It is a stupid iddea anyway, quite like the mec horse in that way. Give the rate that steam trains exploded, stopped working or just broke down in the early days I think that maybe the steam tank should have to take some kind of test to see if it blows up after every wound or something.
A steam tank would be impossibly complex to run so the very fact that there is one fits it in with the rest of the warhammer rule structure.
Hurrah!
Its not just me that thinks this :D
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I often forget we have a Steam Tank. I went into a GW store for the first time yesterday and an employee asked if I played, and told him yes, I play Empire. He responded by saying, 'you know they're coming out with a plastic Steam Tank this summer.' I paused for a moment and probably had a confused look on my face, as I don't use them and would probably never do so, I don't even associate it with the Empire truthfully.
Personally, I wouldn't mind getting rid of it. But that is highly unlikely as they just put out a plastic kit, and I'm sure it's a big seller for them. Plus, there are a lot of people that like the option.
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I can remember an employee asking me if I wanted to look at the new plastic steam tank. I told him I was trying to avoid cheese but that GW were making it very hard. The look on the guys face was to die for as he stammered something along the lines of how could I consider a steam tank cheese.
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I don't think one, by itself, without the war altar is cheese. Nothing wrong with having a single heavy hitter, and every army has monster-slayers that can pose a real threat to a stank. It's balanced when you consider how pretty much every army (with few exceptions) can bring at least one large, ugly target to bear. Many can bring two or more, easily; even O&G can bring a Wyvern and Giant and split your heavy hitting cannons.
One stank AND a war altar, now you're approaching cheesy. The war altar is a steal points-wise, and a tank forces people to split their attention, but that's the way it is sometimes. When you bring two stanks AND the altar, you're really pushing the cheese envelope.
Personally, I think it's tough for us to have a cheesy army at all (we're awfully balanced and have a lack of uber-killy units), but the two stank and altar combo is about as close to it as we get. That, or (arguably) a gun line.
One stank alone is, to me, no more cheesy than any heavy hitter on its own, and has its vulnerabilities. Should we get rid of it? Well, I'm not a huge fan of it, and ordinarily never take it, but I think if we dropped it we should get something heavy to replace it, for the sake of balance. Love the stank or hate it, it serves a purpose in tourney lists and competitive play.
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Remove the tank? If anything, we need more of them! The Empire should be churning them out by now.
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Burn the tanks, burn all like.. eight of them.
Its amazing how many armies get to use the very few steam tanks. I mean, don't the engineers get a holiday?
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So you won't like the new Empire: armored companies list coming up in white dwarf then?
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I love it when people say "the steam tank would be impossibly complex to run"
yet they are fine with giant demons spewing fire up your arse.
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yet they are fine with giant demons spewing fire up your arse.
I'm definitely not fine with that.
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I love it when people say "the steam tank would be impossibly complex to run"
yet they are fine with giant demons spewing fire up your arse.
Remove the tank? If anything, we need more of them! The Empire should be churning them out by now.
These two quotes sum up the arguements for the steam tank. Frankly 1 and even 2 can be taken out with little or no effort- want cheesy? Cheesy is able to have 4 bolt throwers for only 2 slots that....*bloody elves*.
Steam tanks are not immune I've been playing with them long enough to have seen the times they do amazing and the times they don't. I'm not saying their underpowered but they're not nearly as overpowered as people think- it's all about the MIND GAMES *points finger at head and opens eyes wide*
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I cant belive how some people are still moaning about the Stank
Its annoying how it cant Pick banners up! Its one of the best bloody things in the game! stop moaning about how you cant get a constant stream of massacres in tourneys.
In 6th Edition Empire, before they ruined the book, we didnt have Stanks, or the Stupid War Altar. Most people who play empire now dont have the brains to play anything else, and never take anything but 2 Stanks a War Altar and a few knights to bulk out core.
Face it, Steam tanks are ridiculous, they go against the lore, are overpowered, underpointed, and you can take 2 in a 2000 list.
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Not as bad as lists that can take blocks of T4 guys with Great Weapons, Killing Blow that can be resurrected. Oh, and did I also mention a chariot that is able to become ethereal, fly, have hatred, AND Killing Blow?!?!?
Face it, Empire is underpowered as is and we NEED something over-the-top to counter those other things that are incredibly over-the-top! :dry:
-The General
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Not as bad as lists that can take blocks of T4 guys with Great Weapons, Killing Blow that can be resurrected. Oh, and did I also mention a chariot that is able to become ethereal, fly, have hatred, AND Killing Blow?!?!?
Face it, Empire is underpowered as is and we NEED something over-the-top to counter those other things that are incredibly over-the-top! :dry:
-The General
I can agree we are underpowered, but to me the answer is not to give us more ridiculous things to balance it, but to bring the opposition into line. I don't mind the steam tank that much, honestly (though I do think taking two is a bit of a stretch fluff wise for the average army). However, the answer to putting the enemy on steroids is not to start slipping them to empire troops, but rather to make the enemy go clean.
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Fair enough, but I think that the Steam Tank should stay as it is. Rare choices are called "Rare choices" for a reason...
Besides, since when did anyone actually follow the fluff that there are only 8 steam tanks left in existence? :engel:
-The General
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Well, actually I think there are 8, but only a couple are actually working?
I know there is one at Helmgart on the Bretonnian border (Waste opf money that gigantic fortress is with the hundreds of cannons. I don't think Bretonnia has ever attacked it).
And one was at wolfenburg? The rest have been described as being in museums or in disrepair.
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So you won't like the new Empire: armored companies list coming up in white dwarf then?
Will that be before or after the new Panzer Korps update?
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So you won't like the new Empire: armored companies list coming up in white dwarf then?
Will that be before or after the new Panzer Korps update?
Silly, thats in Imperial Armour 36
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So you won't like the new Empire: armored companies list coming up in white dwarf then?
Will that be before or after the new Panzer Korps update?
Silly, thats in Imperial Armour 36
Really? I thought it was in the Engineer's guide to Steamtanks.
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Well, actually I think there are 8
There used to be eight, but currently there are only six steam tanks left. One of the eight sunk into a bog and was captured by the skaven. Another was destroyed at the defense of Middenheim during the Storm of Chaos.
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Well, actually I think there are 8
There used to be eight, but currently there are only six steam tanks left. One of the eight sunk into a bog and was captured by the skaven. Another was destroyed at the defense of Middenheim during the Storm of Chaos.
1) SoC never happened, after all Middenheim is still around...
2) There still are 8, according to the new heraldry book.
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There are 8. The whole 'skaven stole one' story was only in WD, and is not credible. Plus, like Obi said, SoC never happened - just ask the Warriors of Chaos Book.
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There can be eight steam tanks if you want.
Hell, if you plug your ears and shout loud enough, there can even be a million. Give it a shot.
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Technically, there are only 8 "originals" left. That is, only 8 built by the engineer who created the first batch.
There could be knock-offs, reproductions, and the like...any number of them.
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And IMO there will be- the engineers are capable of altering all the tanks to become 'conquerer class' so they've reproduce the turrets already...
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And IMO there will be- the engineers are capable of altering all the tanks to become 'conquerer class' so they've reproduce the turrets already...
Considering how sophisticated the robo-horse would have to be to be combat effective (in the real world we've JUST reached that level with Big Dog, and it doesn't snort fire), it's easy to imagine that engineers in the Empire could build their own without even needing to dismantle one of the old ones to learn how. Sure, they'd differ in some fundamental ways that would distinguish them from authentic originals, but it's doubtful anyone would care.
It's like Greek Fire: we still don't know how they made it, but Napalm does the job so well that it's only an academic point.
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Me and a couple of my mates foolishly made some napalm in my GCSE chemistry class.
Suspended for 2 weeks ;).
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:icon_lol:
My 7th grade science teacher demonstrated what happens when hydrochloric acid meets water.
On her skin.
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:o
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Frankly if she hadn't had rather serious permanent scaring, I would consider it quite funny. She was leaping around and screaming like all hell, and we had no idea what was going on. We thought she had spilled sprite or something on herself.
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Wow she was dumb.
I like my old science teacher though:
"now, that's what that wee bit of sodium does when it meets water. Now let's go outside, because I have a bucket of water and a lump of potassium I need to get rid of" :icon_lol:
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Heh, the one I've had the past two years (and will have this coming year) is totally sweet. Like for physics, we went to Cedar Point (roller coasters) to do a variety of experiments, he took some people up in his plane for other stuff... then there was the ice cream and smores during chemistry...
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Wow she was dumb.
I like my old science teacher though:
"now, that's what that wee bit of sodium does when it meets water. Now let's go outside, because I have a bucket of water and a lump of potassium I need to get rid of" :icon_lol:
My chemistry teacher started off the term by going, "You're in for some fun this semester, kids. Because chemistry is a...blast!" We all groaned at his pun...then he detonated the odorless gas he'd been releasing over his desk, causing a massive fireball to poof in front of him, and the whole desk to writhe in flames briefly, leaving us shut up and staring at his stupid grin.
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Then there was the Van de Graff thingy.
Charged it up so much his hair stood on end for 2 hours.
Not to mention that the electrostatics shorted out everything from the computer to the graphing calculators in the room.
Including everyone's cell phones.
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My chemistry teacher started off the term by going, "You're in for some fun this semester, kids. Because chemistry is a...blast!" We all groaned at his pun...then he detonated the odorless gas he'd been releasing over his desk, causing a massive fireball to poof in front of him, and the whole desk to writhe in flames briefly, leaving us shut up and staring at his stupid grin.
:icon_lol: :icon_lol:
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My chemistry teacher started off the term by going, "You're in for some fun this semester, kids. Because chemistry is a...blast!" We all groaned at his pun...then he detonated the odorless gas he'd been releasing over his desk, causing a massive fireball to poof in front of him, and the whole desk to writhe in flames briefly, leaving us shut up and staring at his stupid grin.
When my chemistry teacher tried to do that we ended up having to call the fire brigade ::heretic::
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I remember we were learning to wire plugs in some DT class. They were basically just the normal plug with a bit of broken wire on it.
Some idiot obviously had to plug it in and turn on the mains.
240 volts basically flew across the room.
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I heard a similar story about a med student. In class with the defibrillator paddles charged up and on his chest he yelled "juice me up!"
Some idiot followed his instructions.
The class got to practice CPR until the EMT's arrived, and shocked him again.
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I remember one day I made a batch of napalm in science class... then murdered someone.
Anyways, I digress. Back to steamtanks.
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I remember one day I made a batch of napalm in science class
Sorry, that story is already taken. Pick something else.
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I wrote the entire lyrics to "Peaches" by The Presidends of the United States of America on my binder. That was as exciting as my Chemestry class ever got.
Do I win the thread now?
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I wrote the entire lyrics to "Peaches" by The Presidends of the United States of America on my binder. That was as exciting as my Chemestry class ever got.
Do I win the thread now?
No. In math class, I programmed my graphics calculator to, when promted, print out the entire text of Blink 182's "Adam's Song" (including automatically repeating the refrain using command codes etc...)
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Now that is impressive!
One guy at my school programmed the computers to play a random Britney Spears song on command.
Remote command.
No one could figure out why they were breaking into song spontaneously...
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The Stank should be droped in points.
And we should be able to buy upgrades for it.
I would like it to get T7, fightingplatform and Helblaster for a total of 300 pts.
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Threadomancy :ph34r:
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The Stank should be droped in points.
And we should be able to buy upgrades for it.
I would like it to get T7, fightingplatform and Helblaster for a total of 300 pts.
The STANK is currently fine. I find that its about the right points and has reasonable rules. Possibly giving it handgun shots in combat as suggested in the beginning of the thread is the only thing I can think of that would be an improvement.
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The STANK is currently fine. I find that its about the right points and has reasonable rules. Possibly giving it handgun shots in combat as suggested in the beginning of the thread is the only thing I can think of that would be an improvement.
If it's one thing it's not, it's fine...
The steam tank has horrible rules is too good versus certain armies and next to useless against others.
It's far to easy to reduce to a scrap since it suffers extremely from suffering just a single wound or two.
The only thing it has going for it is the point sink, and even that is an abomination.
I put out a suggestion for a change some time ago and it's been slightly revised, here it is:
Rare
Cost: 300pts
Stats:
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
- - 4 5 6 10 1 - 10
Save: 1+ Armour save
Special rules:
The steam tank is treated as a monster in all respects with the following special rules:
Magic:
The steam tank is immune to all magic, be it from friend or foe, that lacks a strength value. I.e. only direct physical attacks work against the steam tank.
Killing blow and poison:
The steam tank is immune to killing blow and poison.
Characteristic tests:
The steam tank will automatically pass any characteristic test, except initiative, which it will always fail.
Generating steam points:
The steam tank is dependent on its steam engine to operate, the steam tank generates 1 steam point for every part of two wounds it has remaining up to a maximum of 4. The engineer may attempt to "super-charge" the boiler each turn. Roll a dice and subtract the number of wounds suffered by the steam tank:
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1 or less
Something bad has happened, the steam tank gains no extra steam point but loses one instead.
2+
The engineer and his crew manages to push the boiler to it's limits, add one extra steam point.
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1 - 2 wounds: 1 steam point
3 - 4 wounds: 2 steam points
5 - 6 wounds: 3 steam points
7 - 10 wounds: 4 steam points
Using steam points:
Same as current rules.
Steam cannon
Profile: same as current.
Rules: If the steam cannon suffers a misfire, roll on the misfire chart:
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1
The steam cannon suffers a catastrophic malfunction, the cannon cannot be used for the remainder of the battle and the steam tank suffers 1D3 wounds with no save of any kind allowed.
2-3
The cannonball gets stuck in the barrel or the cannon looses pressure. Regardless of the error the cannon does not fire this turn and the crew must spend the next round fixing it. The cannon may not fire next turn.
4-6
There's a hiss and a release of steam, and the ball rolls out of the barrel falling harmlessly to the ground in front of the steam tank. No shot is fired this turn.
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If it's one thing it's not, it's fine...
The steam tank has horrible rules is too good versus certain armies and next to useless against others.
It's far to easy to reduce to a scrap since it suffers extremely from suffering just a single wound or two.
Then again, isn't that an inherent problem throughout this fragile system of WHFB? :eusa_wall:\
Using the last 4 army books as a gauge of what direction GW developers are heading, we can notice a trend.
1. Monsters are becoming cheaper
2. Some Monsters can be run in multiples (this might get revised in 8th because of the rumored % system)
3. MANY of the "setbacks" of these units are negligible as the power of the unit more than makes up for it
Ignoring much of GW-world Fluff (because even they don't take it that seriously, cm'on!) and utilizing game mechanics and just a dash of common sense, lets look at some of the problems of the Stank in the current environment...
1) Its a 300 point rare. Obviously that needs to be lowered. Its closest rival the Ancient Stegadon is 275 and it hardly has any downsides. Next in line is the HPA... with the Warpstone Spikes upgrade (and Skaven generals do LOVE this upgrade) its only 250. Lets ignore the Doomwheel... because I get quite emotional when I talk about it... :icon_rolleyes:
2) Steam Point generation based on Wounds. Those of you who play in competitive environments might notice that compared to 6th, the amount of high strength attacks in most armies have gone up. Many fielded armies have widespread S5 as an average. Its actually relatively easy to wound the Stank enough times to render it a 300 point pointsink on turn 2 / 3 with the new armies.
3) Imagine a mirror match. Empire vs Empire. What would your cannons shoot at during the first turn? The Stank of course! D6 wounds... Unless you are very unlucky (or for whatever reasons, field only 1 Cannon), its almost a 300 free victory points target. This is an issue most people do not consider when critiquing units. The crucial mirror match.
Because of how the Stank generate steam points (which is seen more as a setback than a plus point) The model shouldn't cost more than 250 points. Heck, it even has a Engineer onboard and he does nothing but shoot his gun once a while. The cost of the Engineer is built into the Stank otherwise the Stank is only 235 points. For the Stank to be worthy of 300 points it would need the Engineer to contribute more to the unit.
I think Ganymede's rewrite is a positive step forward that still can be refined further with accordance to the current trend of army book / unit design.
M WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Steamtank 7 3 - 6 6 6 1 S 10 1+
I think we can still work out the Steam Point generating issue by streamlining it so we can have M X. The wounds still can be 10 since we are using the old Steam Point rules but modified to better suit those with poorer maths skills (I'm really talking about myself here :blush:)
So lets just use the current stat line of BS3 / T6 / W10 / Sv 1+ / US 10 / LD 10
BS 3 because I removed the Engineer. The Empire needs to cut some costs. :happy:
Steam Point Generation: At the start of every turn, the Steam Tank's controller chooses to generate Steam Points. Choose how many Steam Points you wish to generate. Roll 1D6. Add the result to the number you chose. If the number is larger than the amount of wounds the Steam Tank currently has, it takes 1d3 wounds with no saves of whatever allowed and generates no Steam Points that turn. All Steam Points left over during the end of any turn is lost.
(Note that I didn't put a limit to how many Steam Points you can generate a turn. If you feel lucky, try generating 9 steam points... ::heretic::)
Equipment: Main Cannon, Steam Gun
Special Rules: Cause Terror, Large Target, Unbreakable
Magic: The Steam Tank ignores any magic effects that has no strength value.
Movement: The Steam Tank is able to move only when it spends Steam Points to do so. It moves 3" per Steam Point spent. The Steam Tank also moves like a Chariot, however, it cannot pivot unless it spends at least 1 Steam Point during its movement phase.
Charging: When declaring charges, the controlling player chooses how many Steam Points to use. The Steam Tank's charge distance is 3" per Steam Point spent. If the Steam Tank fails its charge, it will move the full distance according to how many Steam Points were spent.
Close Combat: The Steam Tank does 1d6 S6 impact hits per steam point spent when it charges into combat.
Grind: When the Steam Tank is in close combat, it causes 1d3 S6 auto hits per steam point spent into any unit it is in base contact with.
Main gun: Like current.
Steam gun: Like current.
Master Engineer upgrade: 50 points. You may purchase a Master Engineer upgrade for the Steam Tank.
You may choose to activate one of the following abilities during your turn:
1. Roll 1D6, Steam Tank regenerates 1 wound on a 5+ during the start of your turn.
2. You may choose to reroll your Steam Point generation this turn.
3. You may choose to reroll your artillary dice for the Steam Tank's Cannon this turn.
Base cost: 250 points.
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I like the last 2 suggestions
except the last one with the auto wound hits????
bit too much
s6 auto hits would be better-at least make it roll to wound!
and purchasing the engineer is a great idea + repairing wounds!!!!
but should be on a 6+ to stop the cheese complaints
and with re-rolling steampoints options = very less likely to take wounds in first place.
+ since plastic sprue has HLR etc-give engineer ability to purchase weapon options with a shoot or use ability rule...like he does with normal warmachines
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I like the last 2 suggestions
except the last one with the auto wound hits????
bit too much
s6 auto hits would be better-at least make it roll to wound!
and purchasing the engineer is a great idea + repairing wounds!!!!
but should be on a 6+ to stop the cheese complaints
and with re-rolling steampoints options = very less likely to take wounds in first place.
+ since plastic sprue has HLR etc-give engineer ability to purchase weapon options with a shoot or use ability rule...like he does with normal warmachines
Cheers!
You are right, I made a mistake about the auto wounds part. Should be auto hits. I'll change that.
I agree with the 6+ regen roll (but then again, Fantasy regen rules are 4+.... 5+ is hardly cheesy.)
I like re-rolling steampoints... when the Stank is in combat and taking auto hits, it quickly becomes useless when it takes 2 - 3 wounds.
The regen essentially for the Stank when it loses wounds through missile fire. The re-rolling of Steam Points is for it when you need the extra 3" to charge or grind when you already taken wounds. It is very useful.
Although giving the engineer a HLR option is cool... i doubt anybody will take that because it will up the cost of the Stank to over 300. :-D. He will come with the default BS 4 repeater handgun though.
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So lets just use the current stat line of BS3 / T6 / W10 / Sv 1+ / US 10 / LD 10
Fair enough.
BS 3 because I removed the Engineer. The Empire needs to cut some costs. :happy:
Sorry to say this but you haven't really saved a single point by removing the engineer. Why is that? Well, the fact that the engineer in the steam tank isn't a Master engineer in any shape or form. Reducing the BS to 3 is a marginal thing since the steam tank uses it very rarely.
Steam Point Generation: At the start of every turn, the Steam Tank's controller chooses to generate Steam Points. Choose how many Steam Points you wish to generate. Roll 1D6. Add the result to the number you chose. If the number is larger than the amount of wounds the Steam Tank currently has, it takes 1d3 wounds with no saves of whatever allowed and generates no Steam Points that turn. All Steam Points left over during the end of any turn is lost.
Apart from being able to generate more steam points you have done nothing to mitigate the steam tanks ridiculous weakness. I.e. that as soon as it suffers a wound or two you're left with two choices, play it safe and have a chunk of metal that can move about 6" per turn and do little or no damage in combat/shooting, or you can take some risks and get normal potential out of it. However, since you've increased the penalty for failing the steam point generation roll to ridiculous levels I for one would only rarely take the risk.
Equipment, special rules etc.
What unit type is the Steam tank? Rather important don't you think.
Close Combat: The Steam Tank does 1d6 S6 impact hits per steam point spent when it charges into combat.
So during the most optimal of circumstances the steam tank can pull a 27" charge that inflicts 9D6 S6 impact hits? Does this sound balanced to you? People complain enough about it as it is. D3 is just fine, and a cap on the amount of steam points is necessary for obvious reasons.
Main gun: Like current.
The current version of the steam cannon penalizes using it far too much, a misfire causes D3 wounds with no saves. On a fresh steam tank (no lost wounds) this is likely to reduce it's guaranteed efficiency between 25 and 75% (assuming that the roll for steam points is a '6').
Use this instead:
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1
The steam cannon suffers a catastrophic malfunction, the cannon cannot be used for the remainder of the battle and the steam tank suffers 1D3 wounds with no save of any kind allowed.
2-3
The cannonball gets stuck in the barrel or the cannon looses pressure. Regardless of the error the cannon does not fire this turn and the crew must spend the next round fixing it. The cannon may not fire next turn.
4-6
There's a hiss and a release of steam, and the ball rolls out of the barrel falling harmlessly to the ground in front of the steam tank. No shot is fired this turn.
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Master Engineer upgrade: 50 points. You may purchase a Master Engineer upgrade for the Steam Tank.
You may choose to activate one of the following abilities during your turn:
1. Roll 1D6, Steam Tank regenerates 1 wound on a 5+ during the start of your turn.
2. You may choose to reroll your Steam Point generation this turn.
3. You may choose to reroll your artillary dice for the Steam Tank's Cannon this turn.
This I like.
EDIT: cleared up the quoting mess...
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@Perforated:
I guess the Unit Type is Warmachine.
You are right about the 27" charge xD... I would think that the risk that you gonna take for that is a huge one since the failure to get the right dice roll would mean the Steam Tank would take wounds and render it almost un-usable.
I'm quite pleased with the general acceptance of the Engineer upgrade. I still think that during the design of the Stank, the Master Engineer that was added to the Stank, artificially raised the cost of the Stank. It doesn't matter if he does nothing or not, that was how GW developers did things then. Because of improved design theory now, that we might see the Stank costed appropriately.
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You are right about the 27" charge xD... I would think that the risk that you gonna take for that is a huge one since the failure to get the right dice roll would mean the Steam Tank would take wounds and render it almost un-usable.
Sure, the risk is huge, but if you pull it off you've landed a terror bomb right in the middle of the opponents army that is more or less guaranteed to destroy any regiment it touches.
I'm quite pleased with the general acceptance of the Engineer upgrade. I still think that during the design of the Stank, the Master Engineer that was added to the Stank, artificially raised the cost of the Stank. It doesn't matter if he does nothing or not, that was how GW developers did things then. Because of improved design theory now, that we might see the Stank costed appropriately.
You know, that is just assumptions, I don't believe that they've added an arbitrary +65 points to the steam tank just because there happens to be an engineer on it.
Anyways, what about the rest of my comments? (I've cleaned up my post a bit)
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I think your cannon misfire chart is cool.
It gives the Stank more survivability and the player, options.
On the off set chance that we don't want the Stank to move, at least we can fire the cannon and be less worried about the misfire.
Terror Bomb? I think over-all only 4 - 5 army books truly have a weakness to that. The others just shrug and carry on. xD
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I think your cannon misfire chart is cool.
It gives the Stank more survivability and the player, options.
On the off set chance that we don't want the Stank to move, at least we can fire the cannon and be less worried about the misfire.
Which was my intent, the misfire "chart" as it is now actually punishes people so severely that a lot of people refrain from actually using the cannon at all.
While on the not of survivability, what about my proposed changes to "reliability"? As it stands now a pair of bolt throwers are more or less guaranteed to reduce the steam tank to a peice of junk that can reliably generate between 1-3 steam points. And that's just from one turn. Let's not get into what a cannon or stone thrower will do to it.
Terror Bomb? I think over-all only 4 - 5 army books truly have a weakness to that. The others just shrug and carry on. xD
While the terror might not be the worst offender, the possible 9D6 S6 hits would annihilate any unit on the recieving end of the charge, thus forcing several panic tests as well. Quite nasty. Capping the amount of steam points is necessary.
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Imho Steam tanks is good as its.
But he needs only one thing to be more comparable with new monsters....automatic steam points ! something like (wound/2) rounds down:
10 hp = 5 steam points
8-9 hp = 4 steam points
6-7 hp = 3 steam points
4-5 hp = 2 steam points
2-3 hp = 1 steam point
1 hp = 0 :Ohmy:
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Actually no, it isn't.
It need automatic steam points as you phrase it. However, I believe that the extra steam point should warrant some risk taking from the player. Also, the cannon needs a proper misfire chart.