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The General Archive => Empire Army Book 8th Edition => Core => Topic started by: scarletsquig on October 10, 2009, 08:29:32 PM

Title: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: scarletsquig on October 10, 2009, 08:29:32 PM
Okay, now that the skaven book has brought back 1/2 points to warhammer army books, I suggest the following:

Halberdiers: 5 points.

 - May take a shield for 1/2 point each.
 - May take heavy armour for 1/2 point each.


Job done. No messing around with fancy special rules, competitive with swordsmen.

5 1/2 point halberdier - slightly worse than a swordsman in combat due to -1 WS.. but also costs 1/2 point less.

6 point halberdier - still has - 1 WS compared to the swordsman, but also has +1 armour save to compensate.

And of course, they can always choose to use halberds in the situations where it's best to.

As for the whole "the models don't have heavy armour on them" argument... I think any chance of the models being remotely close to their stats went right out of the window after we got pistoliers in full plate and greatswords in heavy armour.

Thoughts? I realise that the naked 5-point halberdier still isn't much good, but that's a tougher nut to crack. :)
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Derek Contyre on October 11, 2009, 08:21:35 AM
If they bring in half points it will be a complicated mess for new player. Also where does it say in the skaven rumours about half points. . . ?
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: scarletsquig on October 11, 2009, 10:30:15 AM
Confirmed over on warseer about the skaven, clanrats have 1/2 point shields.

Good move, in my opinion.. half points make things easier to balance properly at the low end.

As for the half points thing confusing new players I was adding them and multiplying them back in 5th edition as an 11 year-old, it shouldn't be too hard for newbies to figure out, especially with technology these days... you can not only have an impressive digital watch, but you can also use it as a calculator too!
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Derek Contyre on October 11, 2009, 10:34:49 AM
Lol once again i fail to comprehend the fact that people will be buying the soldiers in bulk and that thirty clanrats for so many points with shields for 15pts. . . sounds like a good idea to me too.
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Phydox on October 23, 2009, 12:51:45 PM
Ive been away a while but some debates never disappear.

I don't think heavy armor fits the theme of this army.  We like our troops cheap, so we can choke our enemy with our dead.  When you run out of men, just empty the prisons again.

I've always said the best fix for the halBADier is make them the opposite of spears.  They attack in 2 ranks on a charge. (so they may actually be tempting as a detachment).
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Derek Contyre on October 23, 2009, 10:28:58 PM
yeah but if they fight in two ranks who will ever take spearmen again?

If the empire want us to take halberdiers they need to do something about their rules, i like them and take them for a fun game but they aren't competitive at all.
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Inarticulate on October 24, 2009, 02:51:11 PM
Taking Halberdiers and just using them as heavy armour hand weapon infantry just defeats the objective of taking Halberdiers.

I say give them heavy armour for 1 pt, nothing else. That way they have armour equal to Swordsmen in combat with the added boost of the Halberd.

And to equal them out with Spearmen, get rid of Spearmen and add pikemen with light armour and an updated rule for pikes.

I think the only reason Swords have the +1 Ws and I is because they couldn't compete with the spearmen and halbs in earlier editions.
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Phydox on October 24, 2009, 04:51:46 PM
yeah but if they fight in two ranks who will ever take spearmen again?

Well, you could keep the spearmen slightly more armored by giving them a shield.  Drop the shield from halberds, and keep them cheap (pointswise). So, you would have a higher ac defensive block, and a detachment that hits hard on a charge. 
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: The Dice-Shaman on October 25, 2009, 05:53:17 AM
I like the idea of heavy armor for them.  I really think that they should represent the halberd historically and simply...

When charging fight in one rank at STR 4, and when receiving a charge fight in two ranks as spears.

Speaking of history: Our army is what I believe to be Victorian Era- Renaissance and therefore there would be no spearmen, rather pikemen. Pike and Shot ring a bell? However, greatswords are still made of blueberry poo... very expensive and stubbon blueberry poo.

Don't think it can get much simpler than that but then GW couldn't make their tidy bundles selling spearmen and greatsword models now could they.....
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Derek Contyre on October 25, 2009, 11:26:01 AM
Victorian era??? I dont think so.
Think Henry V. Thats about the type. And staple armies from the holy roman empire weren't simply pike and shot. That was the province of the landscnekts
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on October 26, 2009, 12:39:24 AM
Actually a bit after hank cinc more hank wheat (seriously henry 5,henry 8) 

What the empire is, is essentially a 1480-1560 era army with leonardo da vinci inspired steam punk accessories set in a magical version of the germanies (yes plural) of the Holy Roman Empire.  Which, ironically in real life was neither holy, roman nor an empire.  Bit of a puzzler that one actually. 

Maximillian I was a contemporary of Henry the 8th and Francis the 2nd of france, if you are looking for more source material for what a real world army of the empire might look like.


This is not an army (in real life) which really is supposed to actually even have pistoliers or repeater handguns, while the concepts were invented they were not yet militarily available.  Kind of like what we today would call "future weapons".  Yet by that same token, (in our fantasy world) after a thousand years of gunpowder one would think there'd be a bit of advancement.   

I think this aspect of the time period is the attraction for a fantasy game.  The army is right on the cusp of late medieval and an early modern era army.  Incedentally you are right in one thing this generation did give birth to the pike and shot concept.  While it was born here it was by no means as effeciently deployed as it was in each of the next 5 generations of soldiers.
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Inarticulate on October 26, 2009, 12:57:46 AM
Huren speaks the truth.

And a bit of a fluffy debate: I agree with Huren about the Empire = Holy Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire was a like a confederation of most of the German States, each state was like country in its own right, just as all the provinces have the population and size of regular countries. There is no central army, each province has armies. I would imagine the Emperor does not hold much power outside Reikland.
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Derek Contyre on October 26, 2009, 04:48:58 AM
No he does not, otherwise he would of shut down the solland effort before it became too much of a concieved "threat" lol

I agree with huren also, the holy roman empire was an empire in name only.
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: The Dice-Shaman on October 27, 2009, 05:46:43 AM
Masterfully written Horen!  I still can't help but time shift when putting gunpowder in the same jar as swords and such.  But i'll agree that as Halberds are our "mainstay" unit our time period is 'late' HREmpire, especially because our Lore is based on Germanic and Prussian areas.

Point is:   Halberds hurt on the charge, and receive like spears in RLife.

STR 4 on charge, 2 Ranks on receive 
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Inarticulate on October 27, 2009, 12:19:46 PM
Well no, we're late-mid HRE. It was going well into the 18th century.
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on October 27, 2009, 06:27:44 PM
yeah
I think the distinction you are looking for is late medieval/ early modern. 

for that matter concerning army themes why not do a french, english or even spanish fantasy empire army from this era. could be a fun modelling project.

 
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: cisse on October 28, 2009, 07:51:32 AM
yeah but if they fight in two ranks who will ever take spearmen again?
Simple, let Empire spears fight in 3 ranks. It's in the fluff, just call them "half-pikes" and be done with it.

Then you have halberds striking in two ranks at S4, but with no shield, spears with shield in three ranks, and swords just as they are now. All are about equal, all fit a different role in the army.
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Inarticulate on October 28, 2009, 12:30:59 PM
I don't understand why you can't use spear and shield in combat. Hoplite fashion.
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Derek Contyre on October 28, 2009, 01:14:10 PM
You can, 5+ saves is the best spearmen save in combat.

Spears are NOT two handed weapons and therefore get shield saves.

Night gobbo's with six plus saves. . . huzzah
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Phydox on October 28, 2009, 03:01:26 PM
yeah but if they fight in two ranks who will ever take spearmen again?
Simple, let Empire spears fight in 3 ranks. It's in the fluff, just call them "half-pikes" and be done with it.

Then you have halberds striking in two ranks at S4, but with no shield, spears with shield in three ranks, and swords just as they are now. All are about equal, all fit a different role in the army.

Thumbs up cisse.  I agree basically.  The Empire is suppose to be about Martial Tradition.  That's why we get detachments, cause supposedly we practice killing a lot, while elves paint and write poetry most of the time.

Give the weapons that the empire infantry uses different roles.  Spears have some defensive hedgehog effect, and halberds have an offensive effect.

Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Inarticulate on October 28, 2009, 05:20:15 PM
You can, 5+ saves is the best spearmen save in combat.

Spears are NOT two handed weapons and therefore get shield saves.

Night gobbo's with six plus saves. . . huzzah

What?! Oh goddamnit.
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: t12161991 on October 28, 2009, 05:54:25 PM
Wow. I never put the 5+ save and two handed bit together before...
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: HoS on October 28, 2009, 09:52:34 PM
Has this thread ever died? It's like some kind of shitty poltergeist that only knows one prank.

Every suggestion here has been made before, all the discussion here has been had. All the fluff is old news; we know how to fix it, but GW will not. End of story.
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Freman Bloodglaive on November 14, 2009, 06:39:14 PM
Actually fluffwise the Empire doesn't seem to have advanced much.

Compared to our real world Europe where 1000 years took us from knights with lances to thermonuclear bombs, the Empire is frozen in time. We're supposed to be the innovative peoples, where's our thermonuclear device?

Where's our magically enhanced supersoldiers in steam-powered armour?
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Obi on November 14, 2009, 07:23:49 PM
Wow. I never put the 5+ save and two handed bit together before...
LOLOLOL AND THATS THE FORUM GENIUS SPEAKING LOLOLOLOL ONEONEELEVENTYONE

Sorry, couldn't resist ;)
yeah but if they fight in two ranks who will ever take spearmen again?
Simple, let Empire spears fight in 3 ranks. It's in the fluff, just call them "half-pikes" and be done with it.

Then you have halberds striking in two ranks at S4, but with no shield, spears with shield in three ranks, and swords just as they are now. All are about equal, all fit a different role in the army.
Best idea so far. It's even a little bit better than the most simple idea, which is making them S4 AP.

Yeah, that one hasn't been mentioned in this thread, and it has to be in any serious halberd fix discussion thread. You know it.
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: t12161991 on November 14, 2009, 10:28:18 PM
Wow. I never put the 5+ save and two handed bit together before...
LOLOLOL AND THATS THE FORUM GENIUS SPEAKING LOLOLOLOL ONEONEELEVENTYONE

Sorry, couldn't resist ;)

Probably because I have never played an army with spearmen on a regular basis...
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Holland on November 15, 2009, 02:56:03 AM
Actually fluffwise the Empire doesn't seem to have advanced much.

Compared to our real world Europe where 1000 years took us from knights with lances to thermonuclear bombs, the Empire is frozen in time. We're supposed to be the innovative peoples, where's our thermonuclear device?

Where's our magically enhanced supersoldiers in steam-powered armour?

I would like to second this statement.

 :::cheers:::

Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: t12161991 on November 15, 2009, 03:58:48 AM
Try 500ish years really. Knights as advanced as those represented by the Empire and Bretonnia would have been around in the 14/15th centuries....
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Freman Bloodglaive on November 15, 2009, 04:21:39 AM
Try 500ish years really. Knights as advanced as those represented by the Empire and Bretonnia would have been around in the 14/15th centuries....

Does Empire fluff say how long they've had their knights?

In the Western world we had the motivation of free market capitalism and regular conflict, and the philosophical belief that progress was possible, and that it was a good thing. Technology advanced in an arms race between making armour that would stop a weapon, then making weapons that would pierce that armour. I read somewhere that 17th Century Spanish plate armour would stop a musket ball while only weighing about 70 pounds. I suppose that would explain why our knights have armour as good as they do.

I'd guess that the ongoing war with Chaos would provide the motivation to develop technology, and magic, but perhaps there isn't the philosophical belief that progress is necessary (well that could be the fault of the games designers who don't want to give Empire too much good stuff). Each edition we get even more ramshackle equipment that is more likely to hurt us than our opponents.

What are we? Orcs?
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Inarticulate on November 15, 2009, 01:25:43 PM
At the time of Sigmar, they were like bronze age tribes. 2000(ish) years later and gunpowder was invented, 1500 years after that and we haven't advanced at all.

An Industrial Revolution is needed rather soon.
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: Freman Bloodglaive on November 16, 2009, 05:43:46 AM
We shall have to become like medieval England with low taxes and incentives to innovate.
Title: Re: Another damn halberdier fix
Post by: kk14 on December 17, 2009, 12:29:33 PM
Reply to the OP:

None of our core infantry should be able to get a 3+ Armour save. That's ridiculously high.

Permit Heavy armour but then remove shields as an option, or don't permit both to be purchased.

There are already like 3 halberdier threads. Is this one needed?