Topic: Why not: V.H.Spec on Battle Wiz? + 3 other questions

[nippon]

My first post. Hello World!

I thought I had my 1000p army (warband?) pretty much done, but then I found this very good site and I have spent the evening (er, night) browsing posts here in this forum. So now I feel a bit uncertain as to whether my original 1000p army is any good, and also I have some questions to you people here:

1. I have this cunning plan where I see myself putting the Van Horstmann's Speculum on a puny lvl 1 Battle Wizard in a knight unit and then use that character to challenge what ever comes at me. But here all of you seem to put the speculum on elector counts, why is that? Why not put is on the worst character that can use it in a challenge and then use the opponents better stats to kill him?

2. Why do almost all your armylists feature swordsmen and not spearmen? The swordsmen cost more and get to hit back less than the two rank fighting spearmen. Is it because the higher WS and I? Please explain.

3. I see all your (knight-) units are 5+, even when characters are clearly going to be fielded in them. I have interpreted the rules as: "total unit size must be at least 5", meaning I can put my above mentioned battle wizard and four knights in one legal unit. Am I wrong here, or do you just fancy slightly larger units?

4. One post here delt with pistoliers, and someone claimed that pistoliers can stand and shoot and strike back in HtH in the same turn when charged. How can this be legal? The rules (p45) says you have three options, as in you can't choose more than one of these options. I suppose you must be referring to the fusillade rule in the Empire army list? But wouldn't the main rules in the rulebook override the fusillade rule as in "you can use both pistols in the first turn of HtH, but if charged only if you choose to hold"? The fussilade rule does compare this with models on foot and models on foot can't both stand and shoot and strike back, can they?

[Kaz]

1. I have this cunning plan where I see myself putting the Van Horstmann's Speculum on a puny lvl 1 Battle Wizard in a knight unit and then use that character to challenge what ever comes at me. But here all of you seem to put the speculum on elector counts, why is that? Why not put is on the worst character that can use it in a challenge and then use the opponents better stats to kill him?

I don't use it myself, but if i did it was on a lowly mage...

2. Why do almost all your armylists feature swordsmen and not spearmen? The swordsmen cost more and get to hit back less than the two rank fighting spearmen. Is it because the higher WS and I? Please explain.

theres the option where the spearmen is cheaper.

but if they don't have shield they have, 1 less WS, and 2 less armour save. which means they will die in droves. And the few extra attacks won't do much (WS 3 STR 3 aint enough to make a hole in anything bigger than a skink, why they don't even have a good chance at.)

but you can give your spearmen shield, this makes them the same price as swordsmen.

and then swordsmen are just better.

though I can see the use of spearmen with shield, if up against an opponent with lots str 3 attacks, just use the shield, and you have slightly worse swordsmen, and still having the option to use spear when against something which you can hurt.

3. I see all your (knight-) units are 5+, even when characters are clearly going to be fielded in them. I have interpreted the rules as: "total unit size must be at least 5", meaning I can put my above mentioned battle wizard and four knights in one legal unit. Am I wrong here, or do you just fancy slightly larger units?

you are wrong on the rule, it's the kngiths which have to be 5+, and besides, even if it wasn't. it would be a BAD idea to a character into a unit of four knights. (no "lookout sir" when someone points a cannon at him)

4. One post here delt with pistoliers, and someone claimed that pistoliers can stand and shoot and strike back in HtH in the same turn when charged. How can this be legal? The rules (p45) says you have three options, as in you can't choose more than one of these options. I suppose you must be referring to the fusillade rule in the Empire army list? But wouldn't the main rules in the rulebook override the fusillade rule as in "you can use both pistols in the first turn of HtH, but if charged only if you choose to hold"? The fussilade rule does compare this with models on foot and models on foot can't both stand and shoot and strike back, can they?

they just choose stand and shoot. they can easyli do that, and of course models on foot standing and shooting can strike back in the combat phase.

[Elden]

One problem I see with putting the Van Speculum on a mage is that mage has very lousy armor and is usually using just a normal hand weapon.

So, if you face some chaos general who is also decked out in chaos armor and has a big mean magical sword, then even with the Van speculum, your mage is likely to die quite quickly.

Also, the mage has a lot of stuff to hold, dispel scrolls, wizard staff, rod of power, etc. I doubt if most mages have the space to hold a van speculum.
So, I would place it on my elector count.

An elector's statline is nothing to shout about. It worse than every other race's general except possibly skaven.  If you get a challenge from a weak champion, you can always choose not to use the speculum!

[Kryvich]

Old-new questions - who is better - spearmen or swordsmen. It greatly depends on your tactics or may be fluff.
Spearmen are 6pt + 1 pt shield - the are really need it = 7 pts, the same with swordsmen.
And what we can see - swordsmen for the same price have +1 WS, +1 I, +1 AS in HTH. Only advantage of the spearmen - two ranks attack if STATIC. That mean, no charge or counter-charge. And that mean RULE - no spearmen for the detachment.
The main task of the Empire core infantry - hold the ground and live, not to kill somebody really strong. As you can see, swordsmen live longer, strike better and faster.
IMHO - swordsmen are more universal soldiers than spearmen. They help you in any situation, on charging or offense for example.

[Jonas Whitespure]

Regarding Van Horztmanns Speculum. You must remember that magical item in question does not grant you a better WS and you need to hit something if the swapped characteristics are going use useful at all.

If you put it on a wizard or an engineer luck is needed to win - but it can be done. I've once challenged an Exalted daemon with a Master Engineer. It took three rounds and the daemon died. That was one sweet win!!!

Jonas Whitespure

[Boris Todbringer]

I think he's got a point about the speculum, though. The wizard has 1 attack and two wounds. He can't kill himself in one round like the EC could...

[IH8Skaven]

An elector's statline is nothing to shout about. It worse than every other race's general except possibly skaven.  If you get a challenge from a weak champion, you can always choose not to use the speculum!

A skaven warlord has +1A and a higher intiative to an EC.  The EC has the worst fighting statline of all Lords (non-wizard) by my reckoning.  Even a goblin warboss has +1 attacks. (An EC has +1I to a gobbo boss, but which would you rather have?)

[squig87]

I think i agree with Elden, the wizard needs his scrolls. Yet the idea of giving a chaos general 1 st3 attack is rather amusing!

I think that it really doesnt matter what infantry you use in an empire army. I think if a empire regiment is going to win combat it will be by cunning manouvers and/or combat resolution. Obviously swordsmen dont die as well as spearmen but still, you get the idea ( nobody wants to be flank charged by a mob of angry peasents ).

[Calimehter]

If I'm purely hunting Lords with the VHS, then the Wizard isn't a bad way to go.  

Kind of reminds me of those bad old 5th edition days when Bloodthirsters ran away from my Warhawk Rider champions with funny Black Gems around their necks . . .  

In my Marienburg army, I put the VHS on the Elector Count - not because I'm sending him off willy nilly hunting big beasties (he's on foot after all), but because the VHS acts as a cheap "insurance policy" against big nasties coming in to take out my Lord and his best combat unit.  My reliance on infantry means the Elector Count needs to be front and center to lend his fighting capabilities and LD 9 to the front lines for me to have any chance, and the VHS allows me to place him up there with little fear of retribution.

I've only managed to actually *use* the item in a challenge a few times - but when I see those Chaos Lords and what not steering clear of my main battle lines in those other games for fear of the VHS, I hardly consider those points wasted.

Besides, as others have said, the EC's stats are so poor that its not that hard to find opponents that outclass him stat-wise.  I switched stats with a Chosen Chaos Champion once, because it gave me +1S and didn't lose me any attacks or T.    I could put a Level 1 mage or Engineer with the VHS next to my general and get the same effect, but why do that when all I need to do is buy the item itself to keep him safe?

[nippon]

I had misunderstood a couple of things and completely missed the sword and shield on foot bonus to save. I will use swordsmen instead of spearmen for a large, cheap infantry block, 4+ save is really good!

Regarding the mage with VHS, I will defenetly try him out in a game, as soon as I have painted my flagellants and some more infantry. Someone here mentioned a mordheim sigmarite priest looks good as a champion for the flagellants, and I must thank him for that tip although I forgot who it was. The miniature looks great as a prophet of doom, and makes them 16 although the blisters are three each.

One more thing I have been thinking about is that annoying rule I remember from some edition where you could only fire handguns and their like every other turn. I'm thinking they removed that one as I can't seem to find it, I hope I am correct?

[Kaz]

One more thing I have been thinking about is that annoying rule I remember from some edition where you could only fire handguns and their like every other turn. I'm thinking they removed that one as I can't seem to find it, I hope I am correct?

they have.

[Jonas Whitespure]

Regarding the use of Van Horztmanns Speculum as a deterant vs. big nasty Daemon, I've begun giving it to a captain on a pegasus. Just the posibility that my opponent just might lose his precious greater daemon make him stay far away from said captain.

The advantage is of course that the captain has the same range as a Bloodthirster so he can't outmaneuver me. If the captain was on foot, my opponent would simply fly to the other end of the table and start killing there. By using the pegasus I'm sending a clear message: Get over here and risk getting killed by a puny human.

Boy he hates that captain!


Jonas Whitespure

[patsy02]

exactly!! each and every time i construct an army list against daemons especially i have an ec on foot with 19 greatswords, two level two wizards with 2 dispel scroll each, and one cap'n on a pegasus with horsts spec.
cuz every time a chaos player at games at my club, they stuf up with deamon princes and greater deamons of khorne with wings, planning on slaughtering down entire regiments, but pop comes the tiny brave imperial captain challenging the beast,  as the beast bellows and strikes him the captain fends the blade as big as himself away in one strike and chops the big red bugger in half... slurp