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Author Topic: pistoliers or outriders  (Read 3666 times)

Offline 2841981

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pistoliers or outriders
« on: January 01, 2007, 12:31:33 PM »
with the new pistol combat rules they have lost there appeal to me so i was wondering if anyone has any advise on using them

or should i just make another unit of outriders?

nath
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Offline EmpireSoldier

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Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2007, 04:31:39 PM »
They're good for harassing and charging broken units, I've heard.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2007, 12:47:23 AM »
If you do a search for 'pistoliers' and make it most recent, you will find a lot of threads that have already discussed this issue.
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Offline offroadfury88

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Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2007, 07:19:38 AM »
They're good for harassing and charging broken units, I've heard.

ha ha ha ha ha! :laugh:

what unit isnt good at attacking broken units?

(i find this reply really funny if you couldnt tell)
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Offline General Helstrom

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Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2007, 10:15:03 AM »
It is kinda funny when you say it like that :icon_biggrin:

However, when it's chasing off fleeing enemies you want, Pistoliers are good for the job, because they're fast and cheap.
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Offline nico

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Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2007, 10:15:52 AM »
Didn't try the outriders, but I'm a big fan of pistoliers. They were very good on the charge before, now they can deal a LOT of shots while marchblocking, and it's easier to bait and flee with a musician. I prefer them the way they are now, I had a game against skavens last week and they performed very well, picking ratling guns and slowing down one flank of the rat horde.

I think I'll try to combine outriders and pistoliers on a flank, concentrating fire on  marchbloked units should cause some nice panic tests... Two special slots gone though  :dry:

Offline borgar

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Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2007, 11:58:42 AM »
To be honset,i think GW sorta just smacked something together on the outriders... not very strategic and vulnerable

pistolers are great fast cav,now they can shoot twice each and are still quite cheap..with fusillade gone there charge is a bit lessend but its not something to cry about,right?

haven't really tried out'ies but in the right situation they might hurt allot but they seems to have a many weaknesses and downsides for me to buy them..... oh well
As for borgar - you sir are a genius.

Offline Brother Huss

  • Posts: 203
Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2007, 02:34:30 PM »
I'm really liking the new pistoliers. They may not be as great when charging, but when charged they can stand and shoot with great effect! Against a unit of 4 Ironguts my pistoliers got cornered and had to receive their charge. They stood and shot dealing out 4 wounds! The Ironguts failed their LD check and ran! Hah! I know if they'd have hit home my pistoliers were toast but being able to shoot 2xmodel is very strong.

Also with their musician and the new fast cavalry rules they are great harassing and redirecting units. Run up and unleash 14 shots and then flee when charged. Rally, and do it again, and again, and again...ad nauseum.

BH
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Offline Rightnow

  • Posts: 195
Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2007, 03:27:04 PM »
Both. They have different but important roles. The outriders are really dish out the punishment with 3x multiple shots with BS 4. The pistoliers are more of a harassment unit. I plan on taking both in my army at 2000. The only problem that I see with the outriders is that they will need to be protected from shooting and magic. Any opponent that knows that they can do will make them a high priority target.

At the local GW store, we rolled it out and a unit of outriders wasted a group of chosen knights in one volley.

Offline charles lapointe

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Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2007, 03:05:19 AM »
Pistoleers have LOST thier melee attack.  now they get 2 str3 attacks instead of the old 2 str4 AND a str3.  BUT.  they got shooty! 

roll up on a smaller enemy unit like knights, or elite infantry.  fill em full of lead.  and leave your self angled so theyre only choice is to charge you and give thier flank to YOUR knight.  if they do.  either run, or shoot em again, then die.  if they DONT then they're stuck while you manuver.  NICE>


I am SOOOOO glad the outriders are back.  I can dig my old boys out of the cabinet.  and what do they cost?  like 20 points each.  for 3x handgun shots?   yea , they're move OR fire, but the speed gives you a round to get into a nice flanking postiion behind some terrain(if available) then pepper the heck out of the enemy for the rest of the game.  I think I'm gonna like this re-issue.

Offline 2841981

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Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2007, 12:51:55 PM »
Pistoleers have LOST thier melee attack.  now they get 2 str3 attacks instead of the old 2 str4 AND a str3. 

i was under the impression that you couldnt use an additional hand weapon whilst mounted

the thing that puts me off them is the -1 modifier to shoot multiple shots,

so a unit of five with marksmanw/ repeater pistol

12 stand and shoot shots

-1 for stand and shoot
-1 for multiple shots

that gives you roughly 3 hits if im correct and then you have to wound them

i think ill take a unit in my next game and see how they fare

cheers

nath
Charge warriors of the Empire and die like the heroes you are!

Offline McKnight

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Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2007, 01:05:28 PM »
well the -1 for multiple is only for the second shot isnt it?
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Offline mlepkows

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Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2007, 01:13:27 PM »
Quote
well the -1 for multiple is only for the second shot isnt it?
No, it's for all shoots.

Remember that the champion has BS 4 and, because now he's not the only one with multiple shoots, he ads quite a lot of firepower to the unit. For ~17 pts upgrade you get 4 shoots hitting on 4+ instead of 2 hitting on 5+.

Maciek

Offline McKnight

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Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2007, 02:16:02 PM »
dang that just decreases the accuracy for my pistoliers a bit.
And Outriders has a starting BS of 4? im considering Outriders as standard shooters and some pistoliers for fast cav role. My special slots will just be so tight!
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Offline charles lapointe

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Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2007, 02:34:00 AM »
Yes, no two weapons on horse.  the second str3 attack IS the horse.

6 shots that hit on 5+  or 12 shots that hit on 6.  same average, but a much better potential for the 12.  gotta play for the luckey shot. :eusa_clap:

Offline Rikus

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Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2007, 11:22:30 AM »
Hi,

I have tried 2 units of Outriders instead of the normal Pistoliers in my last 2 battles. 1st battle both units with HLR's & second battle no marksmen only muso's. I must say even though they are completely different to play, they pack a punch which means they will be invited back to play some more... I like!
My opponents don't like them which is normally a very good sign.

Thanks,

Rikus

Offline Wolfshart

  • Posts: 538
Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2007, 08:42:07 PM »
If I remember correctly the -1 to stand and shoot does not apply to pistols so it would only be -1 for 2x shoots so they are alot better then you think in that regards....I could be wrong however.
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Offline Greg DiStefano

  • Posts: 172
Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2007, 09:04:53 PM »
Quote
If I remember correctly the -1 to stand and shoot does not apply to pistols so it would only be -1 for 2x shoots so they are alot better then you think in that regards....I could be wrong however.

Now I'm pretty sure your a lil off there.  The new rules make pistols much better for harrassment roles.  now the advantages of pistoliers basically spells out like this:
1. they're fast calvary so can march 16" and still shoot, as well as rally, move, and shoot some more.
2. since pistols never get the -1 for moving and shooting march/shoot more accurate
3. pistols have no long range so no -1 there

The only real time you should get the -1 is for multi shot, which means 5 have 10 shots that hit on 5+.  As far as them standing and shooting a charge, they can always do it thanx to pistol rules but I believe they still get the -1, so hit on 6's.  this should never be attempted anyways as they pretty much can't stand up to anybody which makes the new musician upgrade that much better.  They charge u run, rally, run back and shoot em again, all still hitten on 5's as your only negative is the 2 shots per.  Now who's better?  That's pretty much impossible to say as they serve totally different purposes.  That's like saying "who's better knights or greatswords?" Outriders are ment to just sit and shoot just like handgunners but can move a lil further when they want to, but then can no longer shoot.  Pistoliers are meant to be runnen all over the place causen havoc amongst your enemy's lines being a general annoyance shooten at everything.  It all comes down to which role your army needs more.  Me personally, i'm goin with the pistoliers.  Sure outriders pack more of a punch then handgunners, but IMO not that much more that I wanna burn another much needed special slot on em.  The pistoliers serve a role however that can't really be replaced by any other unit in the empire's forces, maken them to me, irreplacable.
HARRROOOOOO

Offline Brother Huss

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Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2007, 09:27:38 PM »

The only real time you should get the -1 is for multi shot, which means 5 have 10 shots that hit on 5+.  As far as them standing and shooting a charge, they can always do it thanx to pistol rules but I believe they still get the -1, so hit on 6's.  this should never be attempted anyways as they pretty much can't stand up to anybody which makes the new musician upgrade that much better. 

I have to disagree.

First of all, pistols don't suffer the -1 to hit for stand and shoot. So, they hit on 5+ with 12-14 shots depending on size of unit and equipment.

Secondly, against small units with little armor (5+) it is very effective standing and shooting especially if the charging unit has a low LD. Other fast cavalry, small units of ogres, etc. Though Ogres are dicey unless you've put a couple of wounds on them already.

But I do spend most of my time baiting and fleeing with them. They excel at harassing, probably more so than any other light cavalry. I love the new pistoliers!

BH

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Offline Traumaron

  • Posts: 135
Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2007, 12:20:46 AM »
Since outriders are move or shoot anyway, why not put them on barded warhorses?  Since they will be targets, the extra 2 armor will help alot.  So they would be a 4+ armor save right?  put five near the middle of the board so they dont have to move far and blast away.  Add a priest with a Doomfire ring or Dragon bow in for Hatred if they get in CC and to give the champion re-roll to hit and to wound with Hammer of Sigmar prayer and they get nastier.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2007, 02:01:09 AM by Ron Lyse »

Offline Mike Chung

  • Posts: 361
Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2007, 01:28:57 AM »
I have to disagree.

First of all, pistols don't suffer the -1 to hit for stand and shoot. So, they hit on 5+ with 12-14 shots depending on size of unit and equipment.

I do not believe so.  Pistols are only exempt from penalties for 'long range' and 'shooting and moving only'.  The only other special rule is that pistols are allowed to fire at any chargers.  Nothing else is said about being exempt from the -1 to hit penalty.

Offline Traumaron

  • Posts: 135
Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2007, 02:12:02 AM »
I have to disagree.

First of all, pistols don't suffer the -1 to hit for stand and shoot. So, they hit on 5+ with 12-14 shots depending on size of unit and equipment.

I do not believe so.  Pistols are only exempt from penalties for 'long range' and 'shooting and moving only'.  The only other special rule is that pistols are allowed to fire at any chargers.  Nothing else is said about being exempt from the -1 to hit penalty.

Correct.  BRB pg 57 under the Pistols (Shooting) description " Pistols do not sufffer the usual to hit penalties for shooting at long range or for moving or shooting".  Pg. 55 under Multiple Shots says "These weapons can either fire once without penalty, or as many times as indicated in their rules with an additional -1 to hit penalty."  And finally, pg. 28 To Hit Modifiers -1 Stand and Shoot "If a unit is charged and elects to stand and shoot at its attacker, then their chance of hitting is reduced"

Offline Hans Blom

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Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2007, 11:47:07 AM »
Since outriders are move or shoot anyway, why not put them on barded warhorses?  Since they will be targets, the extra 2 armor will help alot.  So they would be a 4+ armor save right?  put five near the middle of the board so they dont have to move far and blast away.  Add a priest with a Doomfire ring or Dragon bow in for Hatred if they get in CC and to give the champion re-roll to hit and to wound with Hammer of Sigmar prayer and they get nastier.


Outriders are in my oppinion mobile handgunners.
What makes them able to compete with handgunners are aspects of being fast cav combined with the repeater handguns that give them a narrower frontage.

Fast cav advantages that are important to the outriders:
The ability to move after a voluntary rout.
The ability to fire in 360 degrees.

Without these the handgunners are no longer superior to the core choice that is handgunners in my oppinion.
With these however, the outriders can take the form of flank guard, shooting up fast cav trying to outflank our ranked up units and run like hell and redeploy if they should encounter dangers they can't shoot down.

I for one, am not inclined to pay points for loosing these abilities in order to get an extra point of saving throw.

On the general debate I would say that it depends on the rest of the list.
I do see both units being capable of working in both defense and attack.

But I see the outriders as a more defensive tool and the pistoleers as more of a counter-attacking/attacking unit. Thus they are not in competition with each other, if we overlook that they are both a valuable special choice.

The units who can perform the pistoleers tasks should they be left out: captasus, huntsmen, vanilla knights.
Ditto outriders: handgunners/crossbowmen, mage-power, artillery.

And the pistoleers do suffer -1 for stand and shoot actions just like most other units.

Offline Brother Huss

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Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2007, 03:55:04 PM »
Hmmmm...sorry for the brain-fart. Not sure where that misinterpretation came from. So, stand and shoot with multiple shots becomes 6+ to hit. Maybe that's not so good. I guess its back to run and rally.

BH
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Offline Greg DiStefano

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Re: pistoliers or outriders
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2007, 04:11:41 PM »
Quote
The units who can perform the pistoleers tasks should they be left out: captasus, huntsmen, vanilla knights

While I definitely agree the units you mentioned all have some aspect of the pistoliers, none can really take their role.  

The captasus DEFINATELY matches their flexibility with movement, being able to hop behind units and such to stay outta site, he doesn't help too much in really slowing the enemy.  A huge part of the empire turn is your shooting, so slowing the enemy as much as possible is super important and the captasus(I believe under the new rules) can no longer march block giving the enemey total freedom to run straight past him.

The huntsmen can march block and their scout ability puts em smack dab in the enemey's way, but their survivability is nil.  With their infantry movement they're easy pickens for any enemey once in range so they provide more of a speed bump then an actual harassment.

And our ever so popular nillas, what can I say, I love em.  They are however a much better support/flanking unit then they will ever be a harassment.  Sure they're mounted, but they're WAY slower then pistoliers and cannot shoot. They're what all heavy cavalry is, a quick combat unit.  Also, correct me if I'm wrong, I believe the new RB keeps the fast calvary's ability to always march even when close to enemies.  Although not really necassery with the other fast cav rules(free reform and 360 degree sight) that would make em even greater for runnin between enemey lines generally pissen them off.

As far as outriders being mobile handgunners I simply say "eh".  For their pt costs I'll just get 2 or 3 units of basic ones and distribute them across my line, then who needs mobility.  Space can get to be a problem for empire armies tho so that is a definate arguement but I still think they aren't worth the special slot.
HARRROOOOOO