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Author Topic: Are The New High Elves Getting The Dumb First Strike Rule Or What?  (Read 30477 times)

Offline Warlord

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Re: Are The New High Elves Getting The Dumb First Strike Rule Or What?
« Reply #150 on: September 18, 2007, 12:13:04 PM »
We will try in an upcoming tourney to give Infantry a max rank bonus of 5 Instead of 3. We try to encourage large Infantry blocks they should bring real fighting power on the field because of their lousy maneuverability. Yes it screams Griffon Banner BUT you still can take them with a flank charge. What do you guys think?

Sounds like this further hamstrings Elite Infantry...  :unsure:
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Are The New High Elves Getting The Dumb First Strike Rule Or What?
« Reply #151 on: September 18, 2007, 12:37:07 PM »
Not really  because they actually kill something ....right now elite Infantry has the advantage over standard 20 Greatswords cost only 80 points more than 20 Swordsmen to have competative blocks the swords should count to the 30 making them only 20 points cheaper than the greatswords with detachments the greatswords are in the better shape....all rank and file right now have the problem that even a frontal charge of knights breaks them in most cases. with an edge of +7 to CR only the mightiest of troops can attack them frontal.

Offline dabber

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Re: Are The New High Elves Getting The Dumb First Strike Rule Or What?
« Reply #152 on: September 18, 2007, 12:45:59 PM »
They still die just as easily. As a longtime Elf player (I have played HE since 5th, and WE in 7th), knowing that your guys die just as easily as a NG with HW+S is a sad thing. The new rules will help to balance this issue out. It really is the only way to make T3 Elite Infantry viable. If someone thinks they know of a better change, please let me know.
Give them decent saves!  If the spearelves had heavy armour they'd be a bit better.  Give the Swordmasters and Phoenix Guard full plate.  Give the White Lions at least heavy armour and make the lion cloak a ward save.  Elven infantry would need a bit more than that, but if you also dropped their cost by a tiny amount, they might be viable.
Instead GW has made the entire army relatively MORE fragile.  I think the extreme fragility will be unsatisfying to play, as it increases the matchup issue.  I fear anything that ignores the Always Strike First rule (shooting, impact hits, 1+ saves, whatever) will dominate the High Elves.
You do not want to see a Master Engineer across the table giving you the bird.  With Pigeon Bombs, he is a killing machine.  Ridicule the robo horse relentlessly, but pay homage to the pigeon.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Are The New High Elves Getting The Dumb First Strike Rule Or What?
« Reply #153 on: September 18, 2007, 01:08:15 PM »
But the frailty is the thing that defines High Elves...I think the rules fit them better than making them cheaper or tougher.

Offline dabber

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Re: Are The New High Elves Getting The Dumb First Strike Rule Or What?
« Reply #154 on: September 18, 2007, 01:18:09 PM »
But the frailty is the thing that defines High Elves...
What defines Wood Elves and Dark Elves? (WE aren't exactly "frail" these days.  Well, the elves are frail, but the army power comes from forest spirits).
You do not want to see a Master Engineer across the table giving you the bird.  With Pigeon Bombs, he is a killing machine.  Ridicule the robo horse relentlessly, but pay homage to the pigeon.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Are The New High Elves Getting The Dumb First Strike Rule Or What?
« Reply #155 on: September 18, 2007, 01:35:44 PM »
Well...should all High Elves run around with Ward Saves? I like the idea of deadly close combat power the boost is for Infantry mainly so there are now possibilties to field all Infantry aggressive High Elf armies...I like it.

Offline Helborg

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Re: Are The New High Elves Getting The Dumb First Strike Rule Or What?
« Reply #156 on: September 18, 2007, 03:34:32 PM »
Now they're running around with wards saves on every bloody elf this is soooo stupid... let's kill 'em :mrgreen:


Sanj
i should really pull my trousers up now.  :icon_eek:

Offline tescrex

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Re: Are The New High Elves Getting The Dumb First Strike Rule Or What?
« Reply #157 on: September 18, 2007, 07:51:49 PM »
Every unit has its purpose. Infantry blocks are not meant to route the enemy and win the day. That wasn't the purpose historically, and it isnt in a game of Warhammer. Look at it this way. Could a unit of Knights take a charge from an infantry block or another hard hitting unit? No, it isn't the purpose. Trying to make basic low-point infantry both an anvil and a hammer is changing a fundamental aspect of the game. They take the charge, and they do it better than any other unit in the game.

Now take a look at Elite infantry. In some respects, they are meant for this dual purpose, as they are usually quite hitty. However, when you're paying 12-16 points for a model where only the front rank actually gets the bonuses of being elite infantry, you are at a clear disadvantage. Lets say you have a block of 20 Chaos Warriors. The front 5 are in fact elite infantry and can dish out some damage, while the other 15 only provide you with +3 CR. That's a huge point sink for a minimally more combat oriented combat unit as compared to a cheap unit such as Clan Rats.

Now the problem that the HE have, is that they have these really high point infantry units that are even less effective than Chaos Warriors or Dwarfs. They die just as easy as a 3 point Night Goblin with HW+S. You just can't make that work unless you make them more protected (higher T, AS, or WS which is really out of the question), or give them the ability to avoid massive casualities a la strike in initiative order. This helps put them on the same level of effectiveness, or maybe slightly higher, of other elite infantry such as Chaos Warriors or Saurus Warriors. Think of it this way. Are you more scared of charging into a unit of Saurus Warriors with spears or a unit of Spearelves with strike in initiative order? I don't know about you, but I'd feel much more comfortable with S3 T3 elves than S4 T4 Saurus.