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Author Topic: Invocation Question  (Read 2614 times)

Offline ZehKaiser

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Invocation Question
« on: December 15, 2008, 08:46:08 PM »
Lets pretend there is a unit of skellies that is completely surrounded on all sides in combat.  It is 25 models in a 5x5 formation.  Each of its four sides is engaged by units that are 5 models wide in the front with the same base size.  Very unlikely I know, but it has a practical question behind it.  Now the VC player casts Invocation on the unit, can he add more models to it, or no?  Imagine that it is the same situation, but the back rank of the skellies isn't complete, say there are 23 models in a 5x5 formation, so that there are two empty spaces in the back rank, Is the VC player limited to summoning only 2 models?  Or can you summon as many as you want and you move the unit engaged in the rear back if possible?

This type of thing has come up, mostly if a unit of undead is engaged in the front and rear at the same time.  We were unsure if we should fudge it and add models as long as it didn't interfere too much with something else in game, or if we should say that the unit can never be summoned into again in effect, since the new models had nowhere to go. 

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Offline Shadowwolf

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Re: Invocation Question
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2008, 09:11:30 PM »
I'd push the rear unit backwards, in the same way as you move it forward to redress the ranks after combat.

I don't know what the legal solution would be, though...

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Offline Michael W

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Re: Invocation Question
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2008, 09:39:22 PM »
I thought that the rules stated that you could only add models if there was room (haven't got them with me to check right now).  In which case, no, no units would move for the skellies' advantage.  It could go up to 25, but not larger.
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Offline Finlay

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Re: Invocation Question
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2008, 10:33:01 PM »
I'd just push the rear unit back.

I don't care about the rules.

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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Invocation Question
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2008, 10:37:41 PM »
I think the usual answer from GW is indeed to move the unit to make room for new models.

Just watch out for people taking advantage of this in unreasonable ways!
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Offline Marwynn

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Re: Invocation Question
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2008, 12:22:29 AM »
I'd suggest a readjustment but if this is being done to say reveal a vulnerability somewhere that he can exploit then I'd call foul.

Solution: Write down the extra skeletons as being part of a unit, counting it as that size but not really modifying anything on the table.


Offline ZehKaiser

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Re: Invocation Question
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2008, 12:29:45 AM »
That's a really interesting solution Marwynn.   You'd think this type of thing would come up in play testing or perhaps in the 5 pages of VC FAQ's... :eusa_wall:

The main reason I'm curious is just because in all other circumstances, if you don't have room you can't add more models.  Like if they were on the table edge, or if there was a building or impassible terrain behind them, or if there was a corpse 15mm behind the battle line to ensure all units were within its 6" support range, but then you have no space between the rear of the unit and the corpse cart base to add a new rank...  In all of those examples you just don't get to summon.  That makes me think that combat shouldn't be any different. 

But it also seems a bit harsh to the VC player at a time when summoning is most important.  Then again it could also be argued that it is another benefit of rear charges against the VC's and that it is up to the VC player to ensure it doesn't happen to them.
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Offline queek

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Re: Invocation Question
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2008, 02:04:16 PM »
Think of raising as the reverse of casualty removal.  If a unit in the rear causes casualties, it moves up to remain in contact.  With raising, the reverse happens, and the unit is moved back.

If there's no room for this to happen due to terrain or other units, then the raised models are lost. 

This was covered in a 6th edition WD article, and while it certainly would have been nice to see it reiterated for 7th, the underlying basics are the same, and it should be played the same way.

Offline Merrick

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Re: Invocation Question
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2008, 02:15:08 PM »
Queek to the rescue once more!

Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: Invocation Question
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2008, 02:54:58 PM »
So, using Queek's explanation, I can deploy a skeleton unit behind another friendly unit, but facing away from it, and raising more models would move the other unit away from it, ergo, forward ? Meaning, if I deploy single file and raise enough models, I can cross the board that way ?

(I'm playing devils' advocate here...)
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Offline Michael W

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Re: Invocation Question
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2008, 03:06:24 PM »
No, because, in that case, another unit blocks the raised skeletons.  Sort of like fleeing from combat - units involved don't prevent it, but a unit that's not does.  Because the other unit is not in a combat with that skeleton unit, it prevents new models from being raised under its feet.
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Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: Invocation Question
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2008, 04:04:52 PM »
So I could use that "tactic" to push back an enemy unit ?

I raise a skelly unit 1" in front, force him to charge me or stay there foreverer, and if he does charge me and I survive, I get to push him back several inches.... Dwarf players will love that...
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Offline queek

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Re: Invocation Question
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2008, 12:56:03 PM »
Given that you've be raising a unit set up to be rear charged, I doubt that it would last long at all.  Its not something that comes up that often, but its not that difficult to understand:  treat raising as the opposite of casualty removal.

and get on with the game. 

Offline Lord Tilioth

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Re: Invocation Question
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2008, 01:14:09 PM »
But to answer his main question, if your friend or opponent whoever he may be starts the game with 25 skeletons in the unit he can never exceed that number of skeletons. So if he gets knocked down to 23 models and gets his spell off...Lets say he rolls a 6 and gets his skeletons, he may only replace with 2 because he can't exceed the starting number of skeletons in his unit. That why if you kill off a unit of skeletons it's worth it, zombies however can keep on going and going...Now lets say you attacked zombies and not skeletons, and he summoned 10 zombies your unit would get pushed back. Unless for some reason something prevented it such as another unit, or some kind of terrain.
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Offline Michael W

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Re: Invocation Question
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2008, 02:27:27 PM »
But to answer his main question, if your friend or opponent whoever he may be starts the game with 25 skeletons in the unit he can never exceed that number of skeletons.
Or he could take a 15-point bloodline power...and then he CAN exceed the starting number of models...
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Offline ZehKaiser

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Re: Invocation Question
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2008, 02:45:46 PM »
But to answer his main question, if your friend or opponent whoever he may be starts the game with 25 skeletons in the unit he can never exceed that number of skeletons.
Or he could take a 15-point bloodline power...and then he CAN exceed the starting number of models...


Yeah, sorry, should have mentioned the bloodline power or changed out zombies for skellies to be more clear.  And I thought I was being air tight there lol.

The pushing back bit seems like it would be annoying of a good player did it to me.  Obviously if there is impassible terrain or a table edge, you can't push a unit back.  But what if the pushing back resulted in your unit being partially in difficult terrain.  Or even dangerous terrain of some kind if people play with it... That would suck.

It reminds me of the damn dark elf trick where an assassin deploys hidden with scouting shades who are just 10" away from your closest unit and also 2" inside of a wood.  Then on his turn 1 he reveals the assassin, placing him on the edge of the unit so it is now both less than 10" away AND not a whole 2" within a wood and can therefor charge you turn 1 despite what you thought were your best efforts to prevent that... grr... sneaky unforeseen rules shenanigans.
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Offline Lord Tilioth

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Re: Invocation Question
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2008, 06:24:29 PM »
lol yes very unfortunate about the whole dark elf situation...but with the skeletons most opponents won't spend the points for that, they'll find something more important than the bloodline power...also i would argue being able to get pushed into any terrain of any sorts period. I would not elt him and tell him that sucks....lol
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