home

Author Topic: Giants and DoW--why so negative?  (Read 18739 times)

Offline wissenlander

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 7468
  • The original Graf of Brennenburg
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2008, 02:43:48 PM »
You'd iradicate an entire race based off of that?  And if they were regular goblins, then that would split up the dynamics of the greenskin coalition.

Though, I guess GW has erased species for lesser reasons...
Me and Wissenlander had babies!

not together.

finding photographic evidense that Wiss smiles is going to be hard...

Offline Uryens de Crux

  • Members
  • Posts: 3751
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2008, 02:52:33 PM »
As has been mentioned previously, GW change their fluff more than they change their underwear, and each time it is changed is done to sell figures/army lists.

The DoW list are great, and my emprire list doesnt go anywhere without taking at least one pick from it (Stanks, hellblasters and hellstroms just dont do it for me, sorry)

As for taking DoW cavalry, in say, a Dwarven list. Maybe the fact it would be a rare/special choice represents how unusual it is to see such a unit there - and what if the figures I used actually were dwarven cavalry? Would that change peoples bitching.

A Giant Rat in a Skaven list would get a battles worth of kudos from me as an opponant.
We go to gain a little patch of ground that hath in it no profit but the name.
The Free Company of Solland

The Barony of Wusterburg

Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2008, 03:07:34 PM »
It isn't like the hobgoblin race has been represented as anything distinctly different than goblins anyway.  Just subsum them into the goblin race and let wolf rider armies be representedthrough them.

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Lord Etharion

  • Members
  • Posts: 1001
  • RIP Rufas
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2008, 04:18:43 PM »
Philly, you're wrong on this one.

When it comes to fluff, one thing GW has always always done is to make sure there is room for the player to make stuff up. So unless you think noone should add to GWs fluff and its perfect already (which would make you a hypocrite, given your bitter complaining about Gav on the SoC thread), this complaint doesn't fly.

When it comes to balance, you can't make sweeping statements. Even if cannons in BoC and Cav in Dwarfs is unbalanced (and as others have pointed out, this isn't necessarily the case), that doesn't mean taking the freakin' Birdmen of Catrazza is going to unbalance anyone. And if somone modelled them up doom diver flying goblins, that would be awesome. And even if the balance is changed by the inclusion of DoW (in WAAC environments or open lists or closed lists or whatever subset of games you're going to claim is balanced next), that doesn't mean the game is suddenly unbalanced, it means the metagame has changed.

Warlord, I kind of like your idea and I don't. Having Tileans in the fluff adds something new that a player can make an army out of, and people tended to make their DoW units more fitting to their army anyway. Presenting DoW the way you describe feels more like taking an option away from players than giving them ones.
Quote from: Shadowlord
Moo-moo land here I come.
Quote from: rufus sparkfire
I only wish moo-moo land didn't have an internet connection.

Offline Mathi Alfblut

  • Members
  • Posts: 6632
  • intres cum fixura sine misericordia
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2008, 04:31:28 PM »
Well, Philly... Why must you always make it so I have to disagree with you?
You want rock-paper-sissor? Well, fine I guess. Cause that is what you get when you make armies TOO diverse.
I want battlefield tactics to really matter. I want the game such that a player with a better tactical mind should be able to draw even against one with a stronger list but with less tactical approach.

And you dislike for common infantry being able to stand their ground and show back an enemy that is stupid enough to attack from the front is something I find hard to belive. What is more heroic than little Joe defeating a big elephant? Nothing. That is heroic. That Arnold "Supermuscle" Beastneeger bash his third troll with a backswing is not heroic at all, since he is decked out to do just that.
Heroics is when the little dude does great deeds, and somehow you want that to be left out of warhammer for big dudes bulling little dudes with no real threat of reversal.

Not even elephants managed to break Alexanders phalanxes, even as they came in their freaking hundreds and where well trained war elephants! That do show the usefulness of long pointy stick AND disciplined infantry. You would think that the elephant would simply go in and trample allover them, which they did not! Give me that in the game and I will happily have you keep all the monsters.
Quid pro Quo... The best solution.

So I would really like to have an orge unit in my Stirland army, but I know you would just shake your head, not only because everyone should always take two Helstorms in your book, but also because they are DoW and do not belong in the Empire, despite the fact that both Halflings and Ogres used to be part of the Empire army until 6th ed. So what is wrong with having them in it again?
And when it comes to Stirland it would be rather fluffy.
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline ZeroTwentythree

  • Members
  • Posts: 7770
  • i'm a mercenary doom bringer
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2008, 04:32:44 PM »
o23, everything you mention about Stanks and such makes DoW irrelevant anyway.  Stanks and popemobiles are answers to other WAAC lists, and they do very well against them.  In the WAAC setting, if it isn't a fixed list format, there si very good balance.  Some armies are not capable of pure WAAC, but most can do it.


My point is that on the topic of complaints that DoW are unbalanced, there are more useful/powerful options within each list. So the reasoning is false.

STanks and popemobiles don't just do well against other "WAAC" lists, they do well against most lists, including my two horde based armies.

Dividing armies and/or lists into "WAAC" and others is artificial. There are the rules and then there is wishful thinking and a thousand different interpretations of whats fair or fluffy. I'm speaking of the rules.


I am not indicting anyone for using DoW, but they are currently old rules, unbalanced, and normally damaging to the fluff of everyone unless the play takes care to pick and model things which make sense.  You do, plenty of people don't.

So penalize the majority of reasonable players (which is subjective anyway) because a small minority will powergame with DoW? The same could be said of just about anything. You could use that logic to remove half the magic items, units & characters in the game.


Offline wissenlander

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 7468
  • The original Graf of Brennenburg
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2008, 04:38:01 PM »
Oh yes, let's beat Philly with a wiffle ball bat. :happy: 

The reason hobgoblins aren't well represented is because of the lack of Chaos Dwarfs.  That's the entire storyline the hobgoblins have, so it makes sense that they don't have any air time.
Me and Wissenlander had babies!

not together.

finding photographic evidense that Wiss smiles is going to be hard...

Offline Lord Etharion

  • Members
  • Posts: 1001
  • RIP Rufas
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2008, 05:10:01 PM »
Oh yes, let's beat Philly with a wiffle ball bat. :happy: 

Of Logic. I only beat people with with bats of Logic.
Quote from: Shadowlord
Moo-moo land here I come.
Quote from: rufus sparkfire
I only wish moo-moo land didn't have an internet connection.

Offline Mathi Alfblut

  • Members
  • Posts: 6632
  • intres cum fixura sine misericordia
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2008, 05:21:40 PM »
Well, do it with Bat of logic then, Wissenlander use the Bat of Balls and I can take the bat of... off... Nay, feth bats. I use a pike!

Alright, bend over Philly. Not that it will make you change your ways, but hey... You know you love it, donīt you?  :icon_wink:

After all, I am a North Swede, so I something did not work the first time, it only means you try again. Harder this time.
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2008, 05:34:18 PM »
My basic point is that DoW are no longer current, are not properly pointed, don't make sense 90% of the time (not counting Empire armies), are generally unbalancing, and are sort of old and busted.

At no point do I see a reason to move into Mathi vs. Phil and the infantry debate part 5 (which we are actually in agreement on - I use infantry armies meathead!).  I am not interested in extended fluff debates, because my main argument here IS fluff, if you want to see things the other Eltharion, go ahead.  You don't need an addendum list to justify your fluff.  But if you model and fluffisis your army with DoW, I wouldn't say much and ould certainly say nice job after the game.

As far as more powerful things in lists 023, sometimes, but Chaos doesn't get cannons unless it DoW's them.  Dwarves can't have cavalry unless it does that too.  Both are generally used to shore up weaknesses built into the lists.  Are there some times when other things work better?  Yes.  your point is sound, but because there are other powerful things in some armies, that doesn't take away from the fact that it violates the construction of the army in question.

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Sharkbelly

  • Members
  • Posts: 1549
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2008, 05:38:58 PM »
There are no pirates

 :Ohmy: I beg to differ.



I think we're coming to a bit of a concensus. If they are done well, DoW can be a very nice addition to any list. If done poorly, then they are a nuisance.


Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2008, 05:59:17 PM »
I think we're coming to a bit of a concensus. If they are done well, DoW can be a very nice addition to any list. If done poorly, then they are a nuisance.

This.

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Perambulator

  • Global Moderator
  • Members
  • Posts: 4888
  • Much Less Dense Than Other Lawyers!
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2008, 06:04:13 PM »
I think we're coming to a bit of a concensus. If they are done well, DoW can be a very nice addition to any list. If done poorly, then they are a nuisance.

This.

Phil

It's funny how that seems to apply to most things you could think of... :dry:
Quote from: Johan Willhelm
Quote from: Dendo Star
Muppets do not have Hatred!
I bet "Animal" has Frenzy . . .

Offline Mathi Alfblut

  • Members
  • Posts: 6632
  • intres cum fixura sine misericordia
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2008, 06:23:04 PM »
Well, Philly. I know you use infantry, as meatshields your characters can inside.   :icon_razz:
Not the way I want to use them, tough. I want characters to add the little extra, to support the troops. Not the other way around. But I want to fight with armies and units so I guess I would like infantry that was useful as the bulk of the force. But I know we are pretty much in agreement, we just differ on points, and when points become exaggerated, yeah, Mathi catches fire... Hey, I am part of the inquisition, even the Vigilante inquisition, sort of!

As for dwarves, well, it is just that many, many finds the dwarfs boring or tiresome to play against, and I find the pretty boring even if I get my ideas of wanting to pick them up because they are so grim and stubborn.
I would NOT want to see a dwarf army with cavalry as an integrated part. If they managed to hire some horse archers, well fine, I would not mind. They got gold. But would dwarfs really hire someone to do their job? I think they would be more reluctant than even brets to hire aid. Alliance is one thing, hire mercs, at least non-dwarf mercs, is quite another.

The warhammer dwarfs are based around gunline or gun heavy list, sitting and waiting. There should be better ways than some magic gizmo to give them an ability to be more aggressive, but then you might end up on detachment stuff, and that is Empires thing.
However, I would like a battleline of dwarfs, marching to engage the enemy like a roman legion, not a static line awaiting attack. I want to have to option to attack and sieze the initiative, even with dwarfs. However, due to the specialisation that is the current warhammer trend, it is not viable. Dwarfs are meant to be small tincans that spits lead, and that will chop you down then you  beaten yourself tired on their superior armour. Now, it sounds pretty boring really.

I do like the dwarfs of Lord of the Ring better in that respect.

Warhammer dwarfs are not just tough. They are indestructible to the point of uberness. Bar slayers, that is. And yet, they are VERY dependent on their technology, so much they seems to have lost the ability to adapt and survive and be REALLY tough.
Hence, I cannot get myself to play dwarves, since they have become too much of some traits to such and extent they stoped being interesting.
I love the rangers and would applaud more of them, and the idea of skirmishing dwarves are perfect. If they are mean, they should be able to do that aswell, not just hide behind their comrades shields, trusting in their superior armour to save them.

So when push comes to shove, dwarves are really mostly whimps. They live by their superior technology, and not by their skill with the axe, no matter how the longbeards grumble.
I want to see a tactically able dwarf infantry that just donīt stand and wait, but march their battleline steadily and aggressively toward the enemy, rellying on their superior discipline, co-operation and general dwarfen badassness to bring down any foe.
Not on their newfangled gadgentry.

I guess that is why I love the Wood elves and the Empire. They are badass that marches out to meet their foes with sometimes nothing but a shirt upon them, cause there is no other way. But heck, they plan to get home victorious anyway.
That is true toughness and true badassness. Everyone can be badass encased in heavy plate and mithril, or hiding behind such a phalanx while aiming your organ gun. But it takes some true guts to do the same with nothing but (at best) a breastplate on your chest and some steel in your hand. Now, who is REALLY be tough badasses of Warhammer? :ph34r:


Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2008, 06:39:50 PM »
Well, Philly. I know you use infantry, as meatshields your characters can inside.

Lets clarify, I use characters to give me a 1 or 2 point swing.  The units still rely entirely on static CR.  You are overstating my feeling that truely elite infantry should be able to brutalize non-elite units.

Quote
So when push comes to shove, dwarves are really mostly whimps. They live by their superior technology, and not by their skill with the axe, no matter how the longbeards grumble.
I want to see a tactically able dwarf infantry that just donīt stand and wait, but march their battleline steadily and aggressively toward the enemy, rellying on their superior discipline, co-operation and general dwarfen badassness to bring down any foe.
Not on their newfangled gadgentry.

They can do that, what they lack is the movement rate to do it.  Thats a gaming issue.  Maybe if the game had things like the scenarios in 40k, where the dwarves could actually deploy anywhere in their entire board half.

Perambulator:  Exactly.

Phil
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 06:48:39 PM by PhillyT »
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Shadowlord

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 6058
  • ...
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2008, 06:45:45 PM »
Now, who is REALLY be tough badasses of Warhammer? :ph34r:

Steam Tank and Cannons.
My hood is my castle...

Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2008, 07:03:30 PM »
Black Orcs and Minotaur.

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Mathi Alfblut

  • Members
  • Posts: 6632
  • intres cum fixura sine misericordia
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2008, 07:21:39 PM »
Halberdiers! :closed-eyes:

Why, because it ainīt badass really to be big and brutal and run around bashing dudes half your size. Neither is it pretty badass to be encased in such armour as Blorcs!

Badass is to make do with a halberd, a breatplate and still march out to fight! THAT is badass. The other stuff is just... self-explanatory.
To be real badass, you need to be up against the odds. If your not up against any odds, there is no badassness to be called.
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline phillyt

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 19276
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2008, 07:49:01 PM »
That or the halberdier isn't doing it out of real badassery but rather the capricious whims of the political oligarchy under which he serves, pushed into battle so the nobility who ride on horses do not need to sully themselves by getting split in two by the actual badasses of the WH world.  No, the little halberdier, lacking the combat skills to wield a sword and join the Swordsmen, unable to show enough bravery to earn promotion to the Greatswords, unable to use his poor mind well enough to see the manipulations of the government, is meant to slow the enemy and die.

And he does his job well, slowing the enemy while the knights, Greatswords, and cannons do the will of the Emperor.  The halberdiers that survive stumble back to their dirty huts to drink deep from the cup of sorrow and beat their wives, as all grunts are destined to do.

Oh, and Blackorcs only have a 5+ AS.

Phil
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 08:07:13 PM by PhillyT »
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline ZehKaiser

  • Members
  • Posts: 262
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2008, 07:57:05 PM »
Lol, I read Mathi's post and I thought "point Mathi".  Then I read Philly's post and I have to give the point back to him.   :icon_lol:

And everyone knows that the most badass unit is Knights of the White Wolf, sheesh...
Veteran of the Storm of Chaos, Lustria, and Nemesis Crown Campaigns.
Podhammer - The Warhammer Podcast

Offline ZeroTwentythree

  • Members
  • Posts: 7770
  • i'm a mercenary doom bringer
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2008, 08:53:09 PM »
Blah blah blah dwarfs that kick ass blah blah blah...


They can do that, what they lack is the movement rate to do it.  Thats a gaming issue.  Maybe if the game had things like the scenarios in 40k, where the dwarves could actually deploy anywhere in their entire board half.

Dwarfs have several runes that affect movement, the anvil that lets them take extra moves, and scouts and miners that both effective in melee as wells as shooting (in the case of the rangers). On top of all that, they can still march regardless of the proximity of enemies.

They don't need to move for the entire game. They only need to move when it's most important. They are very good at that.


Offline Mathi Alfblut

  • Members
  • Posts: 6632
  • intres cum fixura sine misericordia
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2008, 09:55:55 PM »
Oh... Still Philly, AS 5+ is double the armour of halberdiers.  :icon_wink:
And black orcs are still bullies.  :icon_razz:
To be badass is not being a big bully bashing loads of little guys. Badass when suddenly the small guy draws a knife and scream "UP YOURS!" and proceeds with decorating the armour of said bully with the bullys own intestines, what castrating the bully with his teeth laplander style. That is badass.

Now, I am going to tell a story about a real badass man. It is a north swedish story and everything is completley true! Honist!

You see, it was this man who went under the name Finn-Anders (Anders the finn for you uneducated saxons...). Well, now Finn-Anders and God where not really on...talkative terms, and Finn-Anders could not remember when he had last placed his foot inside the church treshold. He was also the kind of man who never asked for help.
But one evening, over a few bottles of vodka and moonshine he did confess. He had infact once prayed to God. It was when he, in a cold winterspring, when the snow still lay think and crusty, and he suddenly found himself standing face to face with a big mean newly awakened, hungry and VERY pissed of bear. It was a killer bear on top of that. The kind that have gotten taste for cattle and even men.
Finn-Anders stod there, armed only with his knife, and then, he said a prayed. It went something like this:
"Dear God. I may not be best of men, and I have not prayed to you before nor have I asked for help."
"And I will not ask for help this time either."
"I only ask you to promise to be strictly neutral and Iīll show you hell!"

Now that is my kind of badass. Going against a bear with a knife, heck, or without. AND coming out on top. More of that, please, GW.

So, maybe the most badass you really can be is either a huntsman or a free company. Heck, I am so going to treat me with a big bad Free company regiment when I have filled up the detachments for my army. And ahead will be Finn-Anders, with a knife in one hand and fresh bearskin over his shoulder.

THAT is badass!
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline Raulmichile

  • Members
  • Posts: 639
  • ĄĄĄAjua!!!
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2008, 04:32:22 PM »

Well what Mathi described is real badassness.  Although in game terms I sincerely would prefer to be on the other side of the badass spectre: a Dragon Ogre or a Chaos Knight.  Those are also badass but they actually survive the battles!    :icon_mrgreen:

"No 1000 year war veteran demon boom-blasting god-eating lord of the neverdying alwayscheesing can resist a 120 point cannon ball to the gut."

Offline Aldaris

  • Members
  • Posts: 7481
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2008, 05:47:04 PM »
Regarding the prayer Mathi described, that guy might have read up on Prince Leopold I. of Anhalt-Dessau, nicknamed Old Dessauer, a field marshal in the prussian army of the 18. century. Before his final (and vicorious) battle at Kesselsdorf against the Austrians, he is reputed to have prayed: "O Lord God, let me not be disgraced in my old days. Or if Thou wilt not help me, do not help these scoundrels, but leave us to try it ourselves." The sentiment seems similar...  :icon_biggrin:

Offline Captain Tineal

  • Members
  • Posts: 2426
  • You will join me or die! Could you do any less?
Re: Giants and DoW--why so negative?
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2008, 06:29:02 PM »
That or the halberdier isn't doing it out of real badassery but rather the capricious whims of the political oligarchy under which he serves, pushed into battle so the nobility who ride on horses do not need to sully themselves by getting split in two by the actual badasses of the WH world.  No, the little halberdier, lacking the combat skills to wield a sword and join the Swordsmen, unable to show enough bravery to earn promotion to the Greatswords, unable to use his poor mind well enough to see the manipulations of the government, is meant to slow the enemy and die.

And he does his job well, slowing the enemy while the knights, Greatswords, and cannons do the will of the Emperor.  The halberdiers that survive stumble back to their dirty huts to drink deep from the cup of sorrow and beat their wives, as all grunts are destined to do.

Oh, and Blackorcs only have a 5+ AS.

Phil

The moral of this story is:  If you use Halberdiers, you support spouse abuse.  :::cheers:::
I don't know what a pisolires is but it sounds like a musical instrument you play with urine...