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Author Topic: Steam Tank  (Read 37222 times)

Offline Ganymede

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Steam Tank
« on: May 14, 2009, 01:45:53 AM »
Steamtank – 300 Points

Rare

                  M   WS   BS   S   T   W   I   A   Ld   Sv
Steamtank   7     3      -     6   6   6   1   S   10   1+

Equipment: Main Cannon, Steam Gun

Special Rules: Cause Terror, Large Target, Unbreakable, Ironsides, Crush and Grind

Ironsides – With several exceptions, a Steamtank is treated like a normal chariot.
•   Steamtanks are not uniquely vulnerable to strength seven or higher attacks in the same way as regular chariots.
•   The Steamtank counts as a war machine and not a chariot in regards to spell effects and special effects (Beast Cowers, etc.) that target these types of units.
•   Similarly to war machines, Steamtanks are immune to poison.

Crush and Grind – When it is the Steamtank’s turn to attack, it inflicts d6 strength 6 hits on one enemy unit in base contact, distributed like shooting. Note that these hits are in addition to the d6 impact hits that the tank inflicts when charging.


Main Cannon – A shot from the Main cannon is resolved exactly like a shot from the smaller cannon in the rulebook with the exceptions that the shot has a strength of seven, a maximum guess range of 24”, and utilizes the Steamtank Misfire Chart. This weapon may not be used in a Stand and Shoot charge reaction.

Steam Gun – A shot from the Steam Gun is resolved exactly like a volley of grapeshot with the exceptions that the steam tank has a 360 degree Line of Sight when firing the Steam Gun and utilizes the Steamtank Misfire Chart. The narrow end of the flame template is placed in base contact with any edge of the tank’s base. This weapon may not be used in a Stand and Shoot charge reaction.

Steamtank Misfire Chart – 1: The weapon fails to fire and is destroyed. The Steamtank suffers d3 wounds with no saves allowed. 2-3: The weapon fails to fire and the Steamtank may not fire any of its missile weapons in its next turn. 4-6: The weapon fails to fire but is unharmed and may shoot as normal next turn.

Offline Rodman49

  • Posts: 217
Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2009, 08:23:06 AM »
Holy shit this must be a joke.  That set of rules blows.  Maybe if it was 150 and a Special would those rules make sense. 

Look the Steam Tank was common and encouraged in 5th edition Empire armies.  The fact that everyone hates them in 7th edition is only because it didn't show up for most of 6th edition.  The Steamtank is no overpowered and fine in its current state.  The only thing that may be changed is the fact that it doesn't give half victory points.  And maybe give it some gun options.

Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2009, 01:43:41 PM »
Imho the stank is fine as it is now. In fact it should be 250pts in my honest opinion!!
The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2009, 03:00:10 PM »
Holy shit this must be a joke.  That set of rules blows.

Let's try and be a little more constructive, my good man.

I don't think this set of rules is very good either, but that's because I don't think the current steam tank needs much changing, so something so drastic is definitely unappealing.

Maybe bring back the option to convert your steam tank with helblasters, troop platforms, etc.  That's about all I think needs to be done.
The first school of thought is that the ragged-assed Stirlanders, not having two coppers to rub together, nicked it when an elven envoy was passing through the area and had hopped off it to take a pee behind a tree

Offline Ganymede

  • Posts: 297
Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2009, 03:41:14 PM »
The current Steamtank is a hellish chimera of over two pages of superflous, unnecessary, and droning rules. This rewrite provides the inherent essence of the steamtank without reams and reams of special rules.

While the steamtank does lose a little with this particular incarnation of the rules, it also gains a fair amount.

One advantage that the steam tank gains is that it never has to worry about the steam point system. The steam tank is no longer crippled by a pair of wounds. Additionally, there is no risk of self harm that comes with expending steam points.

With this advantage comes a bit of a drawback. The steamtank has been downgraded from ten wounds to six wounds. This change makes the beast a little less survivable to missile fire. Such a change is mitigated by two facts. As mentioned before, this new steam tank can fight at full strength even after suffering five wounds. The current steamtank would be virtually useless once it suffered five wounds. Lastly, and more significantly, the new steam tank has a weapon skill value. Enemy models now have to roll to hit against the beastie. Against many foes, this means the steamtank has a similar resiliancy in melee combat that it had originally.

Overall though, my goal here was to streamline the rules of the steam tank while maintaining its awesome battlefield presence.

Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2009, 03:48:21 PM »
While you make some good points, I do prefer the current rules.
The first school of thought is that the ragged-assed Stirlanders, not having two coppers to rub together, nicked it when an elven envoy was passing through the area and had hopped off it to take a pee behind a tree

Offline Ganymede

  • Posts: 297
Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2009, 03:49:52 PM »
One thing I would point out is that this steam tank is just as resilient in close combat as the previous version, and in some instances more so. Consider that those wishing to swing at the steam tank now have to roll to hit against weapon skill three when the previous tank afforded automatic hits. Against WS3 troops (such as kroxigors, steam tank specialists), this tank will have the mathematical equivalent of 12 of the old steam tank's wounds.

Another point that factors in here is the incredible vulnerability of the tank in your opponent's phase. Not only did the original tank allow for automatic hits against itself, it was also unable to attack at all. Basically, the old steam tank sat there like a big lump of metal and did nothing for an entire turn. With this version, the steam tank will be dishing out the wounds in every combat phase, unleashing a respectable amount of strength six hits every time.

Also remember the slew of benefits that come with chariot movement. While this steam tank cannot march, it gains a number of other boons. Consider that this new steam tank can charge a unit, break it, and now run it down! This incarnation of the steam tank can make pursuit and overrun moves. The beast goes from no pursuit to pursuit with the much desired 3d6. With the tank's pretty solid hitting power and respectable charge reach, I have a feeling that the movement you lose from the lack of marching will be made up by those pursuit moves.

One final advantage, and I feel the greatest advantage, is that there are no more steam points to worry about. Other than eliminating a complex, silly mechanic, it offers one more bonus: no more steam mishaps. Before, working the tank at peak efficiency meant that there was a not so slim chance the tank would do nothing at all. Planned charges would fail and cannon shots across the flank would falter. After the tank has eaten a cannon ball of catapult stone (three wounds), the risks from steam generation grow exponentially. At that point, the use of more than one steam point is a risk, and more than two is downright suicidal. This steam tank always charges 14", always inflicts 2d6 impact hits on the charge, and always works at peak efficiency no matter how much damage it has taken.

Offline Warlord

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Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2009, 04:47:46 PM »
2D6 impact hits is what disappoints me. The rest looks decent, though points would need to be dropped to probably 220 IMO.

Good rewrite Ganymede.
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I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline Ganymede

  • Posts: 297
Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2009, 05:49:49 PM »
I don't know. This thing is a lot cheaper than an ancient stegadon mounted by a skink priest with the impact hit lance.

Offline Rodman49

  • Posts: 217
Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2009, 09:51:21 PM »
One advantage that the steam tank gains is that it never has to worry about the steam point system. The steam tank is no longer crippled by a pair of wounds. Additionally, there is no risk of self harm that comes with expending steam points.

This here shows me you don't understand critical elements behind the design of war machines.  The Steam Point system is a high risk high reward system with a random element.  What you're doing here is making the Steam Tank less random, less unique, and honestly less epic.  Warhammer Fantasy is not chess, if you want to minimize the influence of dice play something else.

Offline Ganymede

  • Posts: 297
Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2009, 10:28:55 PM »
One advantage that the steam tank gains is that it never has to worry about the steam point system. The steam tank is no longer crippled by a pair of wounds. Additionally, there is no risk of self harm that comes with expending steam points.

This here shows me you don't understand critical elements behind the design of war machines.  The Steam Point system is a high risk high reward system with a random element.  What you're doing here is making the Steam Tank less random, less unique, and honestly less epic.  Warhammer Fantasy is not chess, if you want to minimize the influence of dice play something else.

This here shows me that you don't understand this guy.


Let's try and be a little more constructive, my good man.

Offline Inarticulate

  • Posts: 1599
Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2009, 12:25:19 AM »
Tbh I think GW should just get rid of the steam tank altogether. Its a retarded invention anyway.
I for one welcome our new flying cat overlords.

Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2009, 12:28:03 AM »
The steam tank is great as is.

It can be epic in combat however it is easily countered as well there is no need to change it and Ganymede replying with 1/2 page responses trying to convince us isn't likely to work but as flaming Ganymede isn't likely to change his opinion.


The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Union General

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Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2009, 12:39:13 AM »
Tbh I think GW should just get rid of the steam tank altogether. Its a retarded invention anyway.

::heretic::
I like your thinking  Mr. General  what a Genius

Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2009, 05:49:12 AM »
One advantage that the steam tank gains is that it never has to worry about the steam point system. The steam tank is no longer crippled by a pair of wounds. Additionally, there is no risk of self harm that comes with expending steam points.

This here shows me you don't understand critical elements behind the design of war machines.  The Steam Point system is a high risk high reward system with a random element.  What you're doing here is making the Steam Tank less random, less unique, and honestly less epic.  Warhammer Fantasy is not chess, if you want to minimize the influence of dice play something else.

This here shows me that you don't understand this guy.


Let's try and be a little more constructive, my good man.

::adjusts monocle:: Ahem, old bean, let me take a stab at this.

::clears throat in distinctly British tone, the sort of throat clearing that typically comes with a thick handlebar moustache and a few too many years in Her Majesty's service:: You see, the Steam Tank rules, as currently written, are indeed complex and have their drawbacks.  I for one agree with this.

You state that the tank loses a great deal of its effectiveness as it loses wounds, and to me this is not a drawback, this is to be expected with something as complicated as a steam tank.  Tanks are complicated devices, and it seems natural and fitting to me that it should become less powerful as the armour is punctured, the vavles rattled, gaskets blown loose, and crew wounded by shrapnel and miscellaneous pointy bits.  One could argue that perhaps the tank is overly punished for wounds, but tweaking this system is, for me, more in line than discarding it for one where the tank can be tottering about on one cracked wheel (wounds wise) and be just as effective as full strength.  I know, I know, monsters are in the same boat, but we don't have dragons in our world for reliable comparisons.  Perhaps mythical beasts are just that professional to tough it out under extreme duress.

Secondly, you remark that with the current rules, the tank just "sits there like a big lump of metal".  Well, that's what tanks do, old boy.  They're not particularly proactive about fending off sword-wielding maniacs.  The enemy should get automatic hits, because it is the general nature of tanks to apathetically sit there and let people stab them when they are close enough to do so.  I agree that having a whole turn with no combat response is absurd, and needs to be fixed.  Why can't the engineer pop out of his hole and shoot in response?  Perhaps the tank gets 1d6 S4 Armour Piercing shots every enemy turn in retaliation, to represent the crew firing handguns (or pistols, tweak the stats accordingly) out of strategically placed portholes, or maybe a free blast from the steam cannon each turn (doubtful, this seems too powerful but it's a thought).  The variable factor comes from not necessarily being able to shoot at every porthole with equal ability.  I think this works better than making it a chariot type device with a weapon skill; chariots have mounts to pull them, crews to defend them, and sometimes even scythed wheels.  All the tank has is a crew contained within its mammoth depths, and I for one think if it's going to defend itself, that crew should be its only option.

Again, I don't think tanks should be able to make pursuit or overrun moves in the same fashion as a chariot.  Chariots, you can simply whip your steeds and drive after the foe.  Tanks need to be put into gear, pressure built up, etc, and all that comes after your heavily blinded and deafened to the outside world crew realizes the enemy is in full flight.

As for the steam points system, it is indeed complex, and I think unfairly punishes the tank for wounds (it does lose much effectiveness very quickly).  However, I feel that these rules more closely fit the image, and imagined gameplay, of such a device than yours.

That is my respectful and reasoned disagreement.  Care for a spot of Port, old chap?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 05:52:33 AM by Toro_Blanco »
The first school of thought is that the ragged-assed Stirlanders, not having two coppers to rub together, nicked it when an elven envoy was passing through the area and had hopped off it to take a pee behind a tree

Offline t12161991

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Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2009, 11:49:27 AM »
::adjusts monocle:: Ahem, old bean, let me take a stab at this.

::clears throat in distinctly British tone, the sort of throat clearing that typically comes with a thick handlebar moustache and a few too many years in Her Majesty's service:: You see, the Steam Tank rules, as currently written, are indeed complex and have their drawbacks.  I for one agree with this.

You state that the tank loses a great deal of its effectiveness as it loses wounds, and to me this is not a drawback, this is to be expected with something as complicated as a steam tank.  Tanks are complicated devices, and it seems natural and fitting to me that it should become less powerful as the armour is punctured, the vavles rattled, gaskets blown loose, and crew wounded by shrapnel and miscellaneous pointy bits.  One could argue that perhaps the tank is overly punished for wounds, but tweaking this system is, for me, more in line than discarding it for one where the tank can be tottering about on one cracked wheel (wounds wise) and be just as effective as full strength.  I know, I know, monsters are in the same boat, but we don't have dragons in our world for reliable comparisons.  Perhaps mythical beasts are just that professional to tough it out under extreme duress.

Secondly, you remark that with the current rules, the tank just "sits there like a big lump of metal".  Well, that's what tanks do, old boy.  They're not particularly proactive about fending off sword-wielding maniacs.  The enemy should get automatic hits, because it is the general nature of tanks to apathetically sit there and let people stab them when they are close enough to do so.  I agree that having a whole turn with no combat response is absurd, and needs to be fixed.  Why can't the engineer pop out of his hole and shoot in response?  Perhaps the tank gets 1d6 S4 Armour Piercing shots every enemy turn in retaliation, to represent the crew firing handguns (or pistols, tweak the stats accordingly) out of strategically placed portholes, or maybe a free blast from the steam cannon each turn (doubtful, this seems too powerful but it's a thought).  The variable factor comes from not necessarily being able to shoot at every porthole with equal ability.  I think this works better than making it a chariot type device with a weapon skill; chariots have mounts to pull them, crews to defend them, and sometimes even scythed wheels.  All the tank has is a crew contained within its mammoth depths, and I for one think if it's going to defend itself, that crew should be its only option.

Again, I don't think tanks should be able to make pursuit or overrun moves in the same fashion as a chariot.  Chariots, you can simply whip your steeds and drive after the foe.  Tanks need to be put into gear, pressure built up, etc, and all that comes after your heavily blinded and deafened to the outside world crew realizes the enemy is in full flight.

As for the steam points system, it is indeed complex, and I think unfairly punishes the tank for wounds (it does lose much effectiveness very quickly).  However, I feel that these rules more closely fit the image, and imagined gameplay, of such a device than yours.

That is my respectful and reasoned disagreement.  Care for a spot of Port, old chap?

Damnit! Too big to sig! However...

::adjusts monocle:: Ahem, old bean, let me take a stab at this.

...

That is my respectful and reasoned disagreement.  Care for a spot of Port, old chap?

That is sigged!
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Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2009, 12:02:32 PM »
TBH it's a shame stanks can't overrun or pursue as it means they can never capture banners which can be really galling.
The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Inarticulate

  • Posts: 1599
Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2009, 12:06:01 PM »
TBH it's a shame stanks can't overrun or pursue as it means they can never capture banners which can be really galling.

Pretty hilarious to see an engineer jump out of a stank, dodge all the cannon,s bullets and whatnot, pick up a flag and hop back in.

Plus, how would a steam tank overrun? It's damage is done by crashing into things, how would it cut down loads of running people?
I for one welcome our new flying cat overlords.

Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2009, 12:09:28 PM »
I'm not saying it should I'm just saying it can be damn annoying.

In my tourney recently every banner was worth 150 vps instead of 100 in one battle. My steam tanks would have captured 2 banners (out of 5 on offer- I got the other 3 with my knights). So instead of winning by 3300 points I won by 3000... like I said GALLING!
The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Inarticulate

  • Posts: 1599
Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2009, 12:20:43 PM »
Then perhaps we may have finally found a flaw in your tourney list?
I for one welcome our new flying cat overlords.

Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2009, 12:25:02 PM »
Then perhaps we may have finally found a flaw in your tourney list?

Maybe... I still won by 3000 pts to 800. My list isn't the craziest list possible imho.
The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Ganymede

  • Posts: 297
Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2009, 04:35:12 PM »
One advantage that the steam tank gains is that it never has to worry about the steam point system. The steam tank is no longer crippled by a pair of wounds. Additionally, there is no risk of self harm that comes with expending steam points.

This here shows me you don't understand critical elements behind the design of war machines.  The Steam Point system is a high risk high reward system with a random element.  What you're doing here is making the Steam Tank less random, less unique, and honestly less epic.  Warhammer Fantasy is not chess, if you want to minimize the influence of dice play something else.

This here shows me that you don't understand this guy.


Let's try and be a little more constructive, my good man.

::adjusts monocle:: Ahem, old bean, let me take a stab at this.


That is my respectful and reasoned disagreement.  Care for a spot of Port, old chap?

The game of warhammer is filled with abstractions. We abstract everything from the swooping flight of a dragon to a volley of cannon fire. You wish for the rules to have a fidelity to the way a steam powered tank would actually operate on the battlefield, but such a level of fidelity and detail is not seen in any unit anywhere in the warhammer armybooks. When a person suffers several grievous wounds, he naturally does everything in a limited capacity. Such is not true within warhammer's abstraction of warfare. By asking that we reflect such "realistic" minutae into the ruleset, you are asking that the steamtank be a collossal exception to the rest of the warhammer rules.

Secondly, tanks do not just sit about like a lump of metal. It is a bit silly to imagine that they do nothing at all in the opponent's turn. If you are interested in seeing how a fantasy style tank would act in combat, feel free to check out the opening scenes of the movie Wild Wild West. In this film, we are treated to a steam tank rapidly accelerating and reversing in an attempt to crush soldiers. The tank even whirls in place, batting away anyone who would attempt to jab a sword through a vulnerable component.

Personally, I'd rather the steam tank operate in a way that was similar to other units in the warhammer world. While the current steam tank is not as bad as the one in 6th edition, it still remains a unit defined by many, many exceptions to the rules. The unit still remains, "Steamtank: The Minigame."

Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2009, 04:42:30 PM »
I can see your view, and it is apparent we must agree to disagree.

I think a few minor changes, such as retaliatory shots during the opponent's turn and tweaking steam point and wounds, is all that's necessary.  You clearly feel a complete overhaul is what is needed, and it is obvious we shall not agree on this issue.

Nothing wrong with that, I'm just remarking that it seems there is no point to further discussion, as neither of us will be swayed.
The first school of thought is that the ragged-assed Stirlanders, not having two coppers to rub together, nicked it when an elven envoy was passing through the area and had hopped off it to take a pee behind a tree

Offline Ganymede

  • Posts: 297
Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2009, 08:02:14 PM »


Nothing wrong with that, I'm just remarking that it seems there is no point to further discussion, as neither of us will be swayed.

Bah! Nothing but good can come from reasoned dialogue.

Offline commandant

  • Posts: 7416
Re: Steam Tank
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2009, 02:43:37 PM »
I have the perfect answer to the problem.   Just get rid of it and then there is no problem.   It is a stupid iddea anyway, quite like the mec horse in that way.   Give the rate that steam trains exploded, stopped working or just broke down in the early days I think that maybe the steam tank should have to take some kind of test to see if it blows up after every wound or something.
A steam tank would be impossibly complex to run so the very fact that there is one fits it in with the rest of the warhammer rule structure.