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Author Topic: Lord Knights  (Read 12745 times)

Offline WallyTWest

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Lord Knights
« on: May 20, 2009, 02:01:42 AM »
Have a unit of lord knights, similar to the Blood Knights and Chaos Knights of other books. Just high end knights who cost a boat load and can hold their own against basic low end rank and file. No knightly order, just high profile warlords/knights who are heroes in their own right.

WS5, S4, T3, I4, 2A, Ld 8
Full Knight Equipment and benifits from stubborn and immune to panic.
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2009, 05:47:07 AM »
so basically a return to the really old school knights of the high helm, panther and so forth from 3rd ed.  what points cost would you give them?

"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2009, 09:40:55 AM »
The answer to death star units is not to have our own, but to get rid of everyone elses.

But that aint going to happen is it  : :icon_evil:
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Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2009, 01:57:48 PM »
I agree; I think our current knights are powerful enough.  I think the fact that our heavy cavalry, armed with lances, can charge an enemy in the flank and scratch them at best is a sad testament to how overpowered some other choices are.

I really think our army needs minimal tweaking and few, if any, new units.  What needs to happen is overpowered armies have to be brought into line.
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2009, 05:36:07 AM »
check out these old and moldy stats

knight panther 28.5 points
m8 ws5,bs4, s4,t4,w1,i5,a2,ld9 hatred vs chaos, frenzy
all other equipment the same as current knights

High helms 42 points
m8,ws5,bs5,s5,t5,w2,i5,a2,ld8
stubborn
again all other equipment the same as current knights

these two examples taken from the 1987 ravening hordes book that came out between 2nd and third edition

"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2009, 07:41:59 AM »
Difference is, in those days the whole mechanics were completely different, so while they are impressive stats, they dont particularly translate to todays game.
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Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2009, 01:51:29 PM »
tbh I like the idea. I don't believe they should be as powerful as Blood or Chaos knights. Maybe more along the lines of Grail knights without the ward save.

So WS5, BS3, Str4, Tou3, W1 2A LD8, Stubborn, full plate, lances and shield or Great weapons  35pts.

Champion +1A - 16pts
Battle Standard - 16pts may have a 50pt banner (or 55pts? hehe)
Musician- 8pts

If joined by a Grandmaster rather then becoming Immune to Psych they become Unbreakable
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Offline Zub

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2009, 01:53:13 PM »
Blood knihts, Chaos knights and such things are overpowered stupidities and we should not try to have something like that. It only spoils the game.

Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2009, 02:06:51 PM »
Yes, we should remain proud in our lack of cheese.
We go to gain a little patch of ground that hath in it no profit but the name.
The Free Company of Solland

The Barony of Wusterburg

Offline wissenlander

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2009, 02:23:32 PM »
I know IC knights aren't up to this level, but that would negate what they are supposed to be, which is the elite knights of the Empire.  I don't really think having character units is really a great trend to repeat, and I hope it's only the exception and doesn't become the rule.
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Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2009, 04:23:29 PM »

Well my thinking

Regular knights = Core
Inner-Circle = special (and perfectly priced for it as well)
Noble Knights = rare.

BTW staying away from cheese isn't the same as updating the list, what i proposed isn't going to be a crazy unit, we don't have the banners that the vampires do nor do we have the strength of chaos knights. Fact is other armies are not going to get nerfed to suit our needs.
The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2009, 04:53:44 PM »
No they arent, but I am happy to play a list that loses over one that wiffs.
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2009, 05:46:59 PM »
BTW staying away from cheese isn't the same as updating the list, what i proposed isn't going to be a crazy unit, we don't have the banners that the vampires do nor do we have the strength of chaos knights. Fact is other armies are not going to get nerfed to suit our needs.

This exercise (as a whole) is to balance out, and make effective, everything in our list.  Each unit should fit a role within the army, and if one unit that could potentially be acceptable under the current circumstances would be allowed, it may unbalance things if other units or items were also upgraded.  Does that statement make any sense the way I typed it? :unsure:
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not together.

finding photographic evidense that Wiss smiles is going to be hard...

Offline Inarticulate

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2009, 06:20:20 PM »
Pfft I must say I detest this idea.

You basically want Grail Knights in an empire army without lance but unbreakable and with full plate...

Kinda sucks to be Brets if that happens.
I for one welcome our new flying cat overlords.

Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2009, 05:33:05 AM »

Doesn't it always ? :engel:

And I dislike the idea as well.

The Empire has put its faith in gunpowder rather than knights, and they reflect that, which is fine.
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Offline shavixmir

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2009, 09:53:06 AM »
Lord knights?
I'm not in favour.

The Empire is human and not super-powered or uberistic (there was going to be a third superlatitive, but nothing came to mind... it's just one of those Sundays).
Just because Chaos, undead and every other genetically screwed up odd-ball army has sharks in the goldfish bowl, doesn't mean that we should too.

I think the empire's strengths should be diversity and detachments.
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Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2009, 03:31:12 PM »
detachments aren't a strength. Detachments are a gimick put in place because the games designers realize that human infantry can't go toe-to-toe with almost any other infantry unit in the game bar clan rats and goblins (without nets).

Detachments aren't a strength they're a saving grace because without them our infantry wouldn't be anything better then Bret. Peasants which are just meat shields and static CR for their cavalry.

Diversity is a strength and really the only reasonable argument against such a unit.

There is currently 6 Cavalry options (incl. Hammer and lanced / IC hammer +lance, pistoliers, outriders) even if Hammer based units aren't often chosen.

There are currently 6 Infantry units (sword, spear, halberd, free coy, Flaggies, Greatswords). So in that respect yes there shouldn't be a unit that tips it one way or the other as other empire units (artillery, Stanks) can work with a force based on either option.

Mind you I haven't included Archers, Crossbows and Handguns which really would be more seen in an Infantry based force then Cavalry but they aren't what I consider "fighting" units more support units.

The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline t12161991

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2009, 04:04:50 PM »
How does that make detachments a gimmick? By that definition, Wood Elves moving through trees is a gimmick. Dark Elves hating everyone is a gimmick. Vampires restoring wounds is a gimmick.

It represents the tactical nature of the Imperial forces.
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Offline Luther kampf

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2009, 02:32:07 PM »
hey
about the super knight, i don't think we should have any knights nearly as powerful as chaos knights. seen from a pure fluff perspective, there is no way in hell a human could be nearly as powerfull as either a full regiment of mounted  vampires or chosen warriors of chaos riding deamon steeds.
seen from a tactical wievpoint, my opinion on the matter is that we shoudn't have 'em either. it's simply not the empire way to have über killing units.

luther
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Offline Endgame

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2009, 12:17:48 AM »
For Rare knights, I'd just be happy if they gave Knights of the White Wolf the old Cav hammer rules back and made them rare.  At least I'd have a use for all my old WW Knights.

To make it more worth the Rare Slot, make the Cav hammer 1 handed and make White Wolf Knights always Inner Circle.   So S4, +2 on the Charge, +1 following rounds with a 1+ save.  Slightly better than Inner Circle knights but using a rare slot.

Offline Victor

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2009, 08:38:00 PM »
Two attacks is probably a bad idea. But how about the following: You need a Grandmaster in the army, then you can upgrade one unit of IC knights (S4, I4) to WS5. (Maybe a special rule that gives the unit +1 for combat resolution  :-D) ... for 30pts per model ?

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2009, 10:30:43 PM »
What about an option to allow cavalry detachments? A unit of Knights can take up to 2 detachments of fast cavalry (not Outriders). You have the countercharge, stand and shoot, and support charge abilities as normal but with a 6" radius to represent the wider area that cavalry units work in tandem with each other. In addition, there's a third option: Shoot and Charge.

If a unit of knights has a detachment of light cavalry armed with weapons which allow for move and shoot, if they successfully charge an enemy, the detachment cavalry may move within 6 inches of the parent unit to shoot the enemy that's being engaged. Shots in this manner do not cause panic tests, but (depending on game balance) would count as close combat casualties for CR and (defender strikes back) purposes.

While Empire-wise this would represent pistoliers/carbineers firing into dense ranks to disrupt their formation for a cavalry charge, if you want to design a more ancients-themed army, then it would easily represent Roman equites pinning infantry in place with javelins, or Byzantine Cataphract tactics. Of course, making it so that light cavalry doesn't cause panic in their heavier bretheren would also give Empire an equivalent to Chaos Will of the Gods (in regards to Marauder Cav), Orc&Goblin Size Matters (Goblin Light Cav), Knights' Vow/Peasant's Duty (Mounted Yeomen)...really, any non-Elf light cavalry user.

In short, adapting the Detachment system to work for cavalry would work more to give Imperial knights and light cavalry a distinct play-style to compensate for lack of statistical overpoweredness.

Offline Helborg

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2009, 12:05:48 AM »
Yes, we should remain proud in our lack of cheese.

*Points at steam tank*  :engel:


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Offline Freman Bloodglaive

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2009, 09:49:09 AM »
Points at War Alter and two steam tanks.

Then points at Chaos Deamon army.
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Offline Brionne

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Re: Lord Knights
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2009, 10:01:22 AM »
tbh I like the idea. I don't believe they should be as powerful as Blood or Chaos knights. Maybe more along the lines of Grail knights without the ward save.

So WS5, BS3, Str4, Tou3, W1 2A LD8, Stubborn, full plate, lances and shield or Great weapons  35pts.
Oh hell no. That's the Grail Knight statline, but with Stubborn (albeit without ward save) for three points less! Grail Knights are supposed to be the very, very best - beaten only by Vampires who have spent 300 years honing their skills. They're not supposed to be this common in the Empire.  They should at least be 42 points.
Quote
Champion +1A - 16pts
Battle Standard - 16pts may have a 50pt banner (or 55pts? hehe)
Musician- 8pts

If joined by a Grandmaster rather then becoming Immune to Psych they become Unbreakable

Seriously, this is too powerful.
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