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Author Topic: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy  (Read 11971 times)

Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2009, 04:55:01 PM »
And rice is important. Substitute rice for provisions and it is just as relevant today as then.
See, even in these days, when the oh so mighty and wise Rufuses that are soo learned in the superior Western art of war developed by Clausewitz that makes all other works on war useless, even today, what screws up LOTS of military operations is that someone forgot to bring enough food.

Hungry troops fights and THINKS poorly! :closed-eyes:

I am pretty tired of your constant Sun Tzu hating, Rufus, and the high handed manner it is expressed in.
But who am I to argue against a Master of Warfare like Rufus... :icon_evil:

But since people still keep forgetting that essential thing called provision and supplies in general, I think Sun Tzu poking about the issue is more than warranted.
But armchair generals tend to happily forget about such trivial matters since they donīt have to worry about their troops ever getting hungry. :dry:


And 40K and fantasy have their different challenges.

But what I think many people totally fail to appreciate is that they are played on totally different scales!

In 40K, one man is one soldiers. 1 tank is one tank!

In warhammer 10 man can represent a regiment AND the movement rules in warhammer are really not fitting a game of 1/1 scale.
I know the 7th ed totally dropped any mentioning of scale whatsoever, but Warhammer makes the ranked up unit move in a way that represents large units of hundred of men, rather than small forces of 20.

Hence, Warhammer is played in an enviorment where the firepower is limited and massed formation is needed. It is played on a higher tactical level than 40K.

40K is really a platoon or squad level game. The smallest maneuver element is the squad, just like in modern war. And as in modern war, squads stick together but move in a dispersed formation.
Yeah, you can rant on all day about 40K not  being about modern war and that future wars should be totally different, but face it! Willingly or not, the greatest inspiration for 40K, with itīs massive firepower, IS the wars of the 20th century.
So 40K is mostly 20th century warfare moved forward into space, adding better body armour, but as the firepower has also been allowed to get even more devastating, it still creates a similar enviorment.

People who complain about 40K and hold up the real tactical challenge about movement in Warhammer donīt realize that movement canīt function in the same way today.

If my squad is spotted moving in the open, we will most likely be cut down by enemy fire and rightly so! In older days, you might be able to move across open ground, because the range your enemy could project their missiles where limited, and hence you could make more funky maneuvers.

You can make funky moves today aswell, BUT if you do that, you must ensure that  a)
You are so protected that you can ignore what enemy fire might be directed at you.
Or b)
You move along routes that the enemy cannot observe.

There is also c)
where you move in an area the enemy can observe and fire into while not being totally protected against their fire, but you have set up your own firebases whose job it is to silence or suppress the enemy fire, ensuring your squad can reach the objective unharmed.

So there is lots of movement, but the enemys ability to fire into the area visavi your cover and or counterfire ability dictates the risk. You just canīt expect to be able to march up and make snassy Napoleonic maneuvers and expect to get away with it.


In 40K, firepower is effective and rightly so! It is just as it SHOULD be!

If you are not into modern warfare, you will most likely not like 40K.

But of course, that is because modern warfare is so simple it is childish.

However, in old days (the base for how things work in fantasy, like it or not...) everything was of course so much more tactical and demanding more skill than modern brutish combat.

When I hear people complain about how simple 40K is, that is what I hear behind the words.
If you do not like modern warfare, that is it, you will not like 40K, cause you want your troops to behave like in the movie Zulu! and that just ainīt gonna happen.

I however, appreciate both games for trying to capture the different styles of combat that the weapons and the level of protection dictates.
But donīt compare the game. They try to portray two very different things.

In WHFB, youré supposed to be a general, commanding an army, that at least in how it acts and moves represent hundred of troops at least.
I 40K, you usually play the role of a hard pressed company or companysized battlegroup commander, trying to get the upper hand in the constant game of fire and movement.

As for not being able to flee in 40K, you can.
But that is when you move your troops backwards in order to keep them out of charge range. Remember the different scales. An enemy in charge range is in 40k so close that turning your backs toward them would be utter suicide.
When charged in close combat in the hurly burly din of modern warfare, it is man to man combat, where you make a split second desicion to fight or flight. All this is taken into account in the assault phase. Consider many of those casualities as being made unto those of your lads that broke and made a forlorn attempt to escape, gratified by bullets in their back.

The easiest way to die in modern urban combat, for example, is to turn you back to your enemy.

Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2009, 05:00:43 PM »
You really are odd.

I don't hate Sun Tzu. But even if I did, why would you be so upset about it?
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Offline MrDWhitey

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2009, 05:21:01 PM »
You have a different opinion and must be cleansed.  :icon_confused:
I thought he should act responsibly and just kill himself.

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2009, 05:25:13 PM »
All I said was that he thought rice was important! That response is bewildering.

Sun Tzu had awesome panda cavalry with bamboo lances and everything. He was great!


If it helps, I do hate The Sun, which is a very bad newspaper. Maybe that's the source of the confusion. Or maybe not. Who knows.
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Offline FictionalCharacter

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2009, 05:26:37 PM »
i don't see anything wrong with claiming that 40k is far simpler than fantasy; perhaps even tactically inferior. i make those claims. i don't think it's really necessary to try to dig deep for justifications or explanations or what have you. it is what it is.

the difference comes when people decide that that makes it a worse game. it's a different game serving a different purpose, more than anything else.

Offline Dihenydd

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2009, 05:32:22 PM »
Judging by the photo's I've seen, I think Rufus hates Sunlight as well...

Mathi, before you get all riled up again, I don't think people are complaining one whit about the level of realism of the game.  Its a discussion regarding the merits/styles of both.  After 17 years of playing 40K in various forms, I'm well aware of the strength/weakness of it. 

So despite questions of scale or whatever, or how tanks are SUPPOSED to be strong, it just makes for a sometimes boring game with someone's REALISTIC IG gunline blazing away, or Orks charging with 60+dice. 

I just prefer the tactics and strategies consistent with WFB over 40K, my opinion.  Perhaps a more careful reading of others posts before going into a historical rant may be order....
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2009, 05:35:19 PM »
The bucket o dice syndrome is a deliberate.  The conceptualized 40K CC system is to be brutal, risky, with great reward.  They are not to designed to be protracted fights but instead short and sweet and a result in the first round almost every time.  There are no challenges, no combat facing, no bonus for flank or rear, no ranks.  Its just kills and numbers so the weaponry and stats are designed to reflect that.
Looks like more difference again, despite their similarities.

Quote
Infantry shooting has better effect than fantasy, but not a whole lot more.  Its the instant killy big tank guns, special weapon squads, walkers, etc that do that.  But again its mostly dice driven.

Movement is literally all skirmish, which is deliberate, allowing units to go in any direction.  You do not 'out maneuver' the enemy, you 'out power' them.  To paraphrase Sun Tzu "Be the Firstest with the Mostest".  ie find where you want to hit and then crush it.

I think you really see the difference in the game systems when you compare the style of game at the different sizes.  In 500 pts 40K is by far the more interesting game with lots of movement/decisions vs fantasy.  As you get larger and larger games Fantasy really starts to take over.  A 4000pt game of 40K is a joke (Armageddon) its just totally random for all intents and purposes.  Shooting is king and units and tanks are removed en masse during the pretty much random shooting back and forth as it just becomes an 'moment of opportunity' game.  Fantasy really starts to get interesting and you fight for your flanks and all the little intrigues involved in that.
And the more differences that pile up, the more I still sense that the game systems are different.



And if they were the same, then this thread might not even be happening. :icon_wink:
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Offline FictionalCharacter

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2009, 05:36:11 PM »
no armored vehicle statline can rival the pure realism of the lore of the vampires.

or something.

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2009, 05:40:48 PM »
And 40K and fantasy have their different challenges.
Not surprised, and glad that they do.

Quote
But what I think many people totally fail to appreciate is that they are played on totally different scales!
Interesting view point to consider.

Quote
In 40K, one man is one soldiers. 1 tank is one tank!

In warhammer 10 man can represent a regiment AND the movement rules in warhammer are really not fitting a game of 1/1 scale.
Or at least WFB can give such a sense to it's game play.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2009, 05:44:00 PM »
no armored vehicle statline can rival the pure realism of the lore of the vampires.

or something.
:icon_lol:
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"Until death it is all life." Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra

Offline Dihenydd

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #60 on: May 26, 2009, 05:47:43 PM »
Well I keep seeing Messr Sparkfire post that Warhammer is just picking lists and then rolling dice.  Surely he must be love with 40K.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #61 on: May 26, 2009, 06:04:41 PM »
Well I keep seeing Messr Sparkfire post that Warhammer is just picking lists and then rolling dice. 

Well, I suppose it's nice that some people seem to pay such close attention to my words.

I think I said that once, and then just to irritate someone who was being pompous.
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Offline patsy02

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #62 on: May 26, 2009, 07:42:01 PM »
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #63 on: May 26, 2009, 08:00:17 PM »
He looks like he has rolled the dice and he can't believe his eyes.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"Until death it is all life." Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra

Offline phillyt

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #64 on: May 26, 2009, 08:06:24 PM »
Quote from: rufus sparkfire link=topic=29057.msg403201#msg403201
Well, I suppose it's nice that some people seem to pay such close attention to my words.
[/quote

I remember now.  It was in one of the Empire Gunline threads from a year ago.  And I think you were being your normal sarcastic self.

Phil
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Offline MrDWhitey

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #65 on: May 26, 2009, 08:18:29 PM »
That Meet the Spy video is great.

Shame they buggered up how people got items.
I thought he should act responsibly and just kill himself.

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #66 on: May 26, 2009, 09:30:25 PM »
40K is best because it has armored sentinels and that transport plane thing.

Warhammer is best because it has mordheim witch hunters and marienburgers.



I remember now.  It was in one of the Empire Gunline threads from a year ago. 

There's a statute of limitation on old opinions, sincere or otherwise!

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Offline Raulmichile

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2009, 10:02:39 PM »
I agree with what others said before in that 40K and Fantasy serve different views and needs.  Both are tactically demanding and tend to reward the one with better planning.  But my 16 year experience with 40K and 7 with WHFB I think allow me to say that 40K is a little bit simpler than WHFB mainly for two reasons:

- You need to learn a lot less rules  to play to a decent standard.
- Big guns are a real equalizer because they provide a way to deal with almost anything given enough time for them to work.

In other words: Fantasy is more demanding and require more commitment from the player; starting with collecting and painting loads of miniatures (more than 40K), then learning a full load of "basic rules",  then learning another full load of "special rules" that override lots of the basic rules of your own army and then to learn in the process the loads of special rules used by the other armies, and all this just to avoid ruining the game just by interpretation errors or plain ignorance due to such proliferation of rules.

Other way to see it is how many less than 15 year old players you see playing Fantasy and actually winning games compared to 40K?  The learning curve in 40K is more pronounced than in Fantasy.

With this I'm not saying that Fantasy is better per se than 40K; it is only more complex (and in many occasions unnecessarily, I have to accept).  In all sincerity,  the big downside of Fantasy is its proliferation of rules; it could be a much better game with a little bit simpler set of rules.  Like 40K did standardising many rules with the Universal Special Rules system.
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Offline Gneisenau

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #68 on: May 27, 2009, 06:59:43 PM »
If I may say so, I think your opening of the debate was very good, Philly.

Onto the issue at hand:
Fantasy:
1. The magic system is broken.
2. Fear and ward saves are too good.
3. The whole game boils down to the movement phase and deployment.
4. Fixed lists favor specific army types.

To 1: The magic system has some very good elements, in particular the usage of power and dispel dice. They create an in-game unreliability. What I dislike is the pre-game unreliability (rolling for spells). Combined with the inherent disbalance of the magic lores, this favours some armies over others. On the upside, magic significantly widens your possibitilies, thus adding tactical options. On the downside, it's far too unreliable to build tactical plans upon it, unless you're playing certain armies.

To 2 (ward saves too good): A Ward Save itself cannot be too good, as it is merely a defensive instrument and thus cannot win a game. Ward Saves can only be good in combination with their bearer's powers. Thus, it is not really an issue of ward saves, but an issue of too powerfull bearers. Out of my head, and not considering special characters, there are no characters powerfull enough to be broken by a ward save available to them. The best ward save of all is available for Dark Elf characters, which are good, but not overly so.

To 2 (fear too good): Fear is certainly powerful due to its autobreak-effect. However, this effect is balanced out by only working with superior unit strength. This combination means: Either the fear-causers are able to create loads of CR by killing - then they are very expensive and will usually not outnumber (Blood Keep Knights). Or they are moderately priced - then they are weaker and will have trouble creating CR (Skeletons, Zombies). There are exceptions though (Ghouls).

To 3: If that was indeed the case, points 1 and 2 would be invalid. Either way, dependency on movement/deployment does not reduce the tactical depth, but increases it. Otherwise you would have to argue that Chess and Go have less tactical depth than Warhammer, since they are all about movement and deployment, respectively.

To 4: Fixed lists are not part of the WHFB ruleset.

Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #69 on: May 27, 2009, 07:56:30 PM »
But fixed lists are part of tournaments, and tournament player have a tendensy to be the most outspoken and complaining of the gamers.
So much so that for example in the "culture" of Ulthuan.net and to some degree on asrai.org, fixed lists are seen as the proper norm far all walks of players.
Tailoring to a known opponent by whatever degree is seens as a weakness and by some almost as cheating.
I know, I reasoned like that once.

So to tell someone that the HE can take on any opponent if they know beforehand what army they will face is not seen as a proper answer to the dilemma of creating and army to field against specific foes.

GW most likely meant for HE to be more dependant on adapting against their enemies, as would befit them as they would usually select where and when to fight.
Other armies are inherently more allround, like Empire and greenskins. And daemons can walk over all others... maybe even a bit by design, since GW probably expected people to prepare extra when facing daemons, since they are such a terrible foe.

But to many high profile internet warhammer, fixed lists are the right way to play warhammer, so if an army struggle in the fixed list format, and HE does this unless with specific builds, they will consider the army broken. And if you tell them that GW did not design the game or army to work that way, they will take this as proof of GW:s poor designing skills, cause in their world, make some armies more dependant on adapting to specific foes to be on an even footing is bad design cause the idea is not "proper and not what Warhammer really is about!"

@Rufus
Sorry for my outburst, but I have difficulties with interpreting your tone in your messages, and tend to see sarcasm and irony in them all the time. Partly because you are sarcastic and ironic on many occasion, so I sort of expect that from you by now, and partially because I have my "built in problems" of reading between the lines.

However, I still consider much of my post valid and well researched with use of cross scientific examples to bolster my superior arguements! :closed-eyes:
And of course I must have some volume or Philly would not be able to get the messages about his future he looks for.
And yes, Philly, you must imidiately buy a cottage in Indiana and start up a buisness as homebrewer! It is clear as day in my text.


Anyway, I think people should consider the scale of the games before comparing them. Soldiers rarely have as much choice as many wants them to have in a game.
If that firing line where not able to be that powerful, the game would look like a joke, so of course they are powerful. But that is okay!
If you donīt like small-level modern warfare in games, donīt play Warhammer 40K. Modern warfare is deadly in a way older warfare was not. And that way before any close combat started.

Also, the main modes of killing of your enemy in 40K (and modern warfare) is application of firepower.
In ancient warfare the real killing and final breaking of the enemy usually started only when the lines contacted in a bloody melee.

Different powers on the weapons, different ways of moving and fighting.
However, I would not say that flanking and opponent of relatively small importance in 40K. Once had a veteran squad covering behind a barricade of rocks and stuff. Nice, neat saves against my sons marine bolter fire.
My son then managed to get a squad in position to fire into the veterans from their flank, negating their frontal cover.
Imagine the effect.

When you flank an enemy today, you do it not manage to slip into CC, but to be able to engage his firing line piecemeal, to make his cover useless and force him to relocate, thereby making a better target.
And of course to create a crossfire that is more likely to cause dead enemies than a stand up frontal firefight.

In many ways, getting outflanked is ever worse today, unless you got a place with allround cover. Holds true in 40K aswell in my expiriences.
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline Gneisenau

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #70 on: May 27, 2009, 08:19:23 PM »
But fixed lists are part of tournaments, and tournament player have a tendensy to be the most outspoken and complaining of the gamers.
So much so that for example in the "culture" of Ulthuan.net and to some degree on asrai.org, fixed lists are seen as the proper norm far all walks of players.
Tailoring to a known opponent by whatever degree is seens as a weakness and by some almost as cheating.
I know, I reasoned like that once.

So to tell someone that the HE can take on any opponent if they know beforehand what army they will face is not seen as a proper answer to the dilemma of creating and army to field against specific foes.

GW most likely meant for HE to be more dependant on adapting against their enemies, as would befit them as they would usually select where and when to fight.
Other armies are inherently more allround, like Empire and greenskins. And daemons can walk over all others... maybe even a bit by design, since GW probably expected people to prepare extra when facing daemons, since they are such a terrible foe.

But to many high profile internet warhammer, fixed lists are the right way to play warhammer, so if an army struggle in the fixed list format, and HE does this unless with specific builds, they will consider the army broken. And if you tell them that GW did not design the game or army to work that way, they will take this as proof of GW:s poor designing skills, cause in their world, make some armies more dependant on adapting to specific foes to be on an even footing is bad design cause the idea is not "proper and not what Warhammer really is about!"

Fair enough - they refuse to tailor their lists to the opponent, I refuse to tailor my logic to the mental capacity of imbeciles.

Voluntarily restricting tactical options and then whining about the lack of tactical options does not add to one's credibility.

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2009, 09:48:19 PM »
However, I still consider much of my post valid and well researched with use of cross scientific examples to bolster my superior arguements!

Funnily enough, what you said about the importance of logistics is exactly why it's pretty daft to try to apply something like 'the art of war' to a game like warhammer.

Which no one was doing in this thread anyway, but there you are.
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Offline MrDWhitey

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2009, 09:59:23 PM »
Quote from: rufus sparkfire
Funnily enough, what you said about the importance of logistics is exactly why it's pretty daft to try to apply something like 'the art of war' to a game like warhammer.

On a different note, I always get amused by people who scream "This is war, not tiddlywinks!" and idiotic things like that when talking about WAAC or stuff in tabletop games.

Do they forget it's a game with little plastic and metal men?  :icon_rolleyes:
I thought he should act responsibly and just kill himself.

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #73 on: May 27, 2009, 10:02:15 PM »
I certainly don't know anyone like that. I'd like to though - it would be hilarious.
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Offline MrDWhitey

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Re: Tactical and Strategic differences betweeon 40K and Fantasy
« Reply #74 on: May 27, 2009, 10:05:12 PM »
I did (  :icon_rolleyes: ) once, but when my LGS closed down I never saw him again. It was funny at first, but over 2 years it got annoying as hell.
I thought he should act responsibly and just kill himself.