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Author Topic: Here we go with Mordheim!  (Read 28845 times)

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2009, 12:34:32 AM »
@Gamespoet--all Mordheim sets come with the original rules.  The Living Rulebook is available on line through the Specialist Games site.
Is the "Living Rulebook" the rules that are typically being used currently :icon_question:
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Offline Von Kurst

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2009, 12:44:58 AM »
Yes.
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2009, 12:52:27 AM »
Thank you. :icon_cool:
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"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2009, 12:04:01 AM »
I like those house rules!

I think the problem with Mordheim is that the designers couldn't decide if the prices of things represented their game value or their fluff rarity. They rather clearly wanted it to be both, and that doesn't work.

So we end up with heavy armour that costs 50 gold, because it's rare and they don't want people to use it much. And handguns that cost more than crossbows, despite being far less effective. But at the same time, other things are costed according to their relative usefulness.
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Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2009, 02:36:34 AM »
Quote
I like those house rules!

I think the problem with Mordheim is that the designers couldn't decide if the prices of things represented their game value or their fluff rarity. They rather clearly wanted it to be both, and that doesn't work.

So we end up with heavy armour that costs 50 gold, because it's rare and they don't want people to use it much. And handguns that cost more than crossbows, despite being far less effective. But at the same time, other things are costed according to their relative usefulness.

I agree.  That's why I tried to impose a little common snse on the whole affair.  I still need to go over the missile weapons... black powder weapons in particular are piss poor.

I did try to make armor more useful by using the hand weapon and sheild rules (it's a little confusing in the list because it's not worded quite right).

I also want to go over the warbands a bit (skaven is really powerful, while witch hunters are rather weak), and tweak out the skills a bit.

Like I said, it's a work in progress.   :icon_mrgreen:

Oh, and feel free to add suggestions or let me know what your own house rules are.  I'm open to new ideas.
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Offline Von Kurst

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2009, 10:55:50 AM »
I also agree.  One of the strengths of Mordheim has been the fact that it lost support and became a game that the players have all the input on.  It can become what you want it to.

I missed the grouping of the axe with maces and hammers.  Hmmm.  Messing with my Warhammer mind set.  So why didn't you use the axe before?  Its cheap, if you use the optional critical hits it rolls on the deadly Bladed Weapons chart.  My orcs and saurus love their axes. 

THE VENERABLE MORDHEIM CAMPAIGN'S HOUSE RULES.

• Frenzy.  Frenzied models gain +1 attack, not double attacks.
• Sevens to Hit.  You may shoot at targets that require more than a six to hit as per Warhammer rules.
• Hard Cover.  Any obstructed shot must subtract the –1 to hit for cover.  However, if the obstruction is part of a ruined building, a stone temple, boulders or a brick wall then the model has hard cover.  Hard cover is –2 to hit.
• Defended Obstacle.  Charges over a wall, through a window/door or climbing up a wall or ladder lose any benefits normally allowed to chargers, i.e., combat order is determined by order of initiative and any special weapon bonuses that only apply when charging are lost.
• Armor Piercing. Gunpowder weapons are all considered armor piercing as per Warhammer Fantasy rules.  This rule affects swivel guns and blunderbusses.  Thus hits from these weapons have a –1 armor save modifier in addition to any for the strength of the weapon.
• Sheild and a hand weapon.  A model armed with a hand weapon, (sword, axe mace etc) and also equipped with a shield gains +1 armor save in hand to hand combat if it chooses to use the shield and hand weapon in combination. It must use the combination for the entire combat once the choice is made.
• Pistols in melee combat.  A model armed with a pistol may use it as a club once it has been fired in melee or if it is empty at the start of a melee.  All attacks made with an empty pistol are made at the warrior’s base strength.
• Magic Missiles.  A wizard must follow shooting rules for spells that require line of sight.
• Lances.  A mounted warrior armed with a lance gains +2 Strength bonus in the first turn of combat when charging.
• Looter.  If he is not prohibited from wearing armor, hero may use any armor acquired through exploration.
• Charges. The most direct rout does not have to be a strait line.

Situational House Rules
• Darkness.  At the beginning of a scenario that is set at night or underground roll 3D6. The result is the maximum distance a model may see (or in some cases move).  Weapons with templates that extend farther than the current range of vision will hit unseen models in the open on a D6 roll of 4+.  Roll for each eligible target.  Orcs, Goblins, Elves, Dwarves, Beastmen and Undead may add 6 inches to the range of vision.
• Dangerous Ground.  Any warrior wishing to run or charge in the dark must roll a D6.  On a roll of 6 the model has tripped and fallen.  The model is treated as Knocked Down until its next Recovery phase.  Animals, Daemons, Spirits and Undead need not test.  Ghouls are considered Undead for the purposes of this rule.

(still haven't codified the various campaign specific rules for ships, work has been crazy.)

@Gamespoet--you are welcome.  :)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 11:06:18 AM by Von Kurst »
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2009, 01:45:16 PM »
I'm going to be experiencing a Mordheim demonstartion game in about a week.  And contemplating the creation of a Mordheim warband.

Question ... what are the major overall differences, if any, between the various Empire themed Mordheim bands :icon_question:
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2009, 04:58:39 PM »
Reiklanders are good with a bow.  They have a marksman rule which is really good.  Marienburgers have money, starting off at least, which is a nice asset in the very beginning.  Those two are the ones I remember.  Most provinces have a list, whether official or not.  I believe Averland has a list as well. 

I borrowed ideas from the Averland and Reikland lists to create a Wissenland one (at the time there was no Wissenland list), but I think I've only played a couple of games to tweak it.  And that was a while ago.  Hopefully can get back to it soon enough.
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Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2009, 05:54:24 PM »
Wissenlander left a few things out, so please allow me to step in:

Reiklanders:  The most versatile and well rounded empire gang. 

They get a 12" Ld radius for thier captain, rather than the standard 6" radius.  This is really nice!  The shootiest of the three empire warbands, all of thier low level marksmen also get an automatic +1 BS. 

Their champions also get the broadest selection of skills to choose from (a total of 4 categories).  Unlike the other two empire warbands, riekland champions can choose strength skills AND shooting skills, making them very versatile and dangerous.

Middenheimers: Close combat specialists.  Thier champions and captains start at Str 4 instead of Str 3.  Champions may only choose from 3 different skill sets.  Champions and Youngbloods do not have access to shooting skills, which means thier shooting is going to be mediocre compared to the other two empire warbands.

Marienburgers:  They start out with an extra 20% money bonus, and gain a +1 to find rare items when trading.  The money bonus gives them a boost at the start of the game, but you'll have to make the most of it because it's a one shot deal. 

Bascially, they get no combat or shooting bonuses, but instead have excellent starting equipment.  The "find an item" bonus is nice but realitvely minor, but the ability can be used throught the campiagn unlike the money bonus.

Champions and youngbloods do not have access to strength skills which means the marienburgers are going to be lacking in the close combat department, compared to reikland and middenhiem warbands.
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2009, 06:32:17 PM »
I was a bit misleading with my previous post.  There don't seem to be as many warbands for the Empire as I had thought.  There are the original Reikland, Middenheim and Marienburg along with Witch Hunters and Sisters of Sigmar.  In a latter update Averland and Ostland were released.

Still quite a bit to choose from in the Empire.  Lots of others to choose from as well besides.
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Offline Midaski

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2009, 06:37:53 PM »
.... and don't forget the Kislevites, with their bear and tamer .......

 :engel:

.... and the amazons .................
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2009, 06:47:04 PM »
Yeah, I forgot about the Kislevites.  But if we're going with the Amazons there's also other mercenary bands from Tilea, too.
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2009, 11:31:33 PM »
Here are the names of the "official lists" ...

Averland Mercs.
Beastmen Raiders
Carnival of Chaos
Cult of Possessed
Dwarf Treasure Hunters
Kislevite Warband
Marineburg Mercs.
Middenheim Mercs.
Orc & Goblin Hordes
Ostlander Mercs.
Reikland Mercs.
Sisters of Sigmar
Skaven Warband
Undead
Witchhunters

Already checked out the Averlander list and it looks interesting.  :icon_cool:

And here I was considering a try at painting a different province. :icon_biggrin:

Although it certainly gives me some interesting options for using the new archer box ... that I just picked up this evening. :icon_wink:

Oh ... almost forgot ... the Ostlander list includes an option for an ogre!  Now that sounds wicked awesome.   I've got two older metal models from the 80's early 90s, and they've already been basecoated this past spring. :::cheers:::
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #63 on: October 08, 2009, 02:06:35 AM »
I'm downloading and printing the Mordheim rules from the GW/Specialist site as this is written! :::cheers:::
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"Until death it is all life." Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #64 on: October 08, 2009, 11:36:53 AM »
Kislev has awful models that are inexplicably expensive on ebay.
I haven't seen these, but were they worse than the WFB ones?

Not sure I'll make a Kislev list, but there are 10 hats in the new archer box that could give the unit a decent look if someone wanted to use them for conversions.

Quote
There's an Ostermark warband in fanatic magazine (they reroll failed rout and all alone tests, and use the Middenheimer skill lists), and it also says Stirland warbands use the Reikland rules.
Good to know.

Quote
The Averlanders are probably the most interesting mercenary list.
I was contemplating giving another proviince a try, yet when I saw the Averlander list.  It looks so interesting that I might make and paint some models to create this list afterall.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"Until death it is all life." Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2009, 11:53:30 AM »
The Ostland ogre option seems pricey, but I wonder if this helps make up for lack of hired hands?
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"Until death it is all life." Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra

Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #66 on: October 09, 2009, 02:03:31 AM »
Quote
The Ostland ogre option seems pricey, but I wonder if this helps make up for lack of hired hands?

Depends. 

Ostlanders start with one less hero available than the other empire bands.  The ogre can be promoted to a hero and thus gain experience and skills (although only at half speed because they're not too bright).  This could make him a pretty nasty combat monster.

Ostlanders also get a priest character which is nice.  Mercenary warbands generally don't have spellcasters.  And really, how could you resist a summon squirrel spell?

Not being able to take hireswords is a disadvantage, but you CAN take a skill that allows you to take 2 wardogs per character that don't count against your warbands maximum limit.  This will help offset the lack of hireswords, but wardogs aren't quite as versatile, even if they are cheap and fast.

Ruffians are another oddity.  With a WS and BS of 2 but a LD 10.  Also they cannot use missile weapons or ever be a warband leader.

I don't think they're quite as well rounded as Reikalnd mercs, but I do think they're very interesting.
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #67 on: October 09, 2009, 02:14:37 AM »
Pistol Pete ... what is your assessment of the Averlander Mercs :icon_question:
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"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

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Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #68 on: October 09, 2009, 07:31:43 PM »
Quote
Pistol Pete ... what is your assessment of the Averlander Mercs

They look terrific, with with thier slash and puff, and those black and yellow stripes.

 :happy:
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Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #69 on: October 09, 2009, 08:28:36 PM »
Just kidding.  Here's my real opinion:

Averland seems to be a little on the weak side if you ask me.

Character-wise, it's a mixed bag.  The champion/sergeant gets 3 skill categories (reikland champs get 4, making them more versatile).  They lose a champion and a youngblood, and instead get 2 bergjaegers (somewhat making up for the loss of the champ's shooting skills).

The big thing about the bergjaegers is that they have BS 4 and can have longbows and hunting arrows from the start.  This is nice!  Unfortunately they start off at WS2 making them rather wussy in combat.  Compare that to a mercenary champion who has a WS 4, BS 3, and you'll note that the Jaegers are 1 point behind (which will eat up a valuable upgrade to replace).  You could call this a wash since the jaegers replace a youngblood (worse stats) in addition to a champion (better stats).

Also thier equipemnt options are rather meager.  Longbow and hunting arrows is pretty much as good as it gets for them.  No crossbows or pistols for them (unless they expand thier options with a skill upgrade).  Combat weapons lean toward the light side, and they only have options for shooting and speed skills.

Compare them to reiklanders for a moment.  They can buy hunting arrows (if you're so inclined) after the game begins (though they'd have to expend  a skill upgrade to get longbows or elf bows). So compared to reiklanders, the Jaeger's equipment bonus will pay off in the short term, but will be less useful as time wears on.

Now let's look at the henchmen:

Mountainguard:  Hey a swordsman without the re-roll ability.  Yay.  You can have as many as you can stuff into your warband, however, and they're 5 points cheaper.

Marksmen: Not as good as Reilkands (BS3).  You may have as many as you like, up to your warband's limit.

Halfling Scouts: Nore more than 3 halflings may be taken.  They've got BS 4 but can only take bows (greatly limiting the usefulness of that BS4).  Weapon Skill, Strength, and Toughness are all 2, making them the worst fighters in Mordheim!  They do have LD8 and an initiative of 4, but those are less important than the combat stats in my opinion.

Overall the characters are probably as good as Reiklands.  They're different, and not as versatile, but i think fot the most part it evens out.  Until you factor in the extra 6" LD bonus tha Reikland gets, which makes Reikland a better choice, in my opinion.

Henchmen-wise, reiklands swordsmen are better than the mountainguard (due to thier sword re-rolls).  Likewise, Reiklands marksmen shoot better than the averland marksmen, and are *much* better fighters than the halfling marksmen (with more versatile equipment to boot!), making them better than both of these.

Bottom line?  The hunting arrows are pretty nice, but only two warband members can get them at the outset (and other warbands can purchase them later mitigating the usefullness of the free weapon upgrade).  A pretty minor bonus. 
The halflings are just too soft to be useful and thier limited weapon options mean that thier BS4 is largely wasted.  Can't see much point in even taking them.
One of the weakest mercenary warbands in my opinion.  I think they need a bit of tweaking to make them worthwhile.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 08:46:52 PM by Pistol Pete »
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #70 on: October 09, 2009, 09:55:57 PM »
Hmmm ... not a particularly encouraging assessment.

I'm not thrilled with giving the Marienburgers a try. although maybe.  The close combat specialists of Middenheim don't thrill me.  Reikland's paint scheme isn't that appealing, currently.

Hmmm ... maybe the Ostlanders, since this provides something different, had actually considered them as a possibility when picking a province for my first regular army, and might make some interesting modeling/converting possibilites, too.  Plus the Ogre!  And I suspect no one at my local hobby store is likely playing them.
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"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

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Offline Inarticulate

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #71 on: October 09, 2009, 11:00:20 PM »
If I started Mord, I'd use the Reikland list. But use them as Tileans.
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Offline Aldaris

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #72 on: October 09, 2009, 11:10:01 PM »
As I said, Reikland is really good. Two groups of Marksmen will really put the hurt on your opponent. I played against a friends Witch Hunters last week and routed them on my first turn (I went second). Granted, that was a really boring game, but still...

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #73 on: October 09, 2009, 11:23:34 PM »
I've read the Tileans have a list for Miragleans, Remasens, and Trantios.  The lists permit the use of duelists.  Pikes can attack from 3" away without getting into close combat.  Not sure how practicle they'd be in Mordheim though.
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"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

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Offline Von Kurst

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Re: Here we go with Mordheim!
« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2009, 01:48:50 AM »
There's an actual Tilean list. It's stupid.

Yes, a pike is an ideal weapon to carry around Mordheim! Or in fact the jungle, since they were intended for Lustria. Either way, no.


What are the most broken-tastic official warbands, I wonder? Skaven, dwarfs, carnival of chaos, undead?
Again with the negative vibes. 
One of the other players in our current campaign is playing Trantios.
http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=30378.0
He can't be bothered with pikes.  I'm running some Remasens from time to time. Many of them are based on Lost Legionaries and the Young Bloods carry pikes.  Not much use in the jungle its true, but great in actions aboard boats and ships for that first round to repel boarders.  And awfully useful against the big nasties... Well maybe not, but that's what I tell myself.

For most broken official warband my vote goes to Dwarfs.

As far as which warband to pick I truly believe that any warband can be a winner if you play the game.  If you want to win from the git go play a killer warband in a killer way.  I have friends who only play Reiklanders, Dwarfs or elves.  They may lose 3 or 4 games in a 30 game cycle.

My friend playing Trantios Tileans lost his first 5 games.  He picked up a few injuries and lost some henchmen but he rarely fought beyond 25% losses unless he thought he had a good chance at treasure.  Now he's got some good fighters and good shooters and he's gained that 6th hero and he hasn't lost in 4 games.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 01:51:46 AM by Von Kurst »
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