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Author Topic: state troop training  (Read 8333 times)

Offline Davido

  • Posts: 537
state troop training
« on: October 06, 2009, 01:53:17 PM »
o.k. I have had a different though about our state troops recently. I think the stats are good as they are as they represent what a human is. What the current rules don't highlight is that humans don't fight like the other armies. ie, skill and speed for elves and brute force for chaos and orcs.

Humans should fight tactically having been well drilled and trained. for this reason  would consider giving the unit sergeant the ability to make one order per turn.

to successfully carry out the order the troops will need to pass a ld test.

The orders i was thinking about were

Interlock Shields: The warriors in the unit gain a 2+ armour save but are at -ve 1 to hit the enemy as they are hiding behind a shield wall, Only useable by regiments with shields, cannot move that turn

Fire for Effect:(ranged units only) the unit waits till the last second to fire their ranged weapons doing as much damage to the enemy as possible. This would eliminate the 1ve 1 to stand and shoot and would mean that enemies always count as within short range when the unit is being charged, also the enemy will get a +1 to hit in cc. only used against chargers

Take the Horses: (only for spearmen or halberdiers) test at -ve 2 ld if enemy have lances, the soldiers will attack the enemy cavalry by killing the horses. horses are whatever toughness it says on the profile and have a 6+ save base or a 5+ save for barded warhorses. must be in close combat or being charged

o.k. cool I was thinking these would only work while the sergeant was still alive but I am not 100% sold on the idea. It might also be cool to let the captains or generals take over if the sergeant dies as they are trained military men also.

obviously these rules would only apply state troops with sergeants/duelists so detachment would not benefit from these rules. I think it makes our swordsmen and spearmen more survivable and our halberdiers actually useful in some situations, o.k. still not many but better than nothing.

o.k. please let us know what you think
Yay my rocket battery finally killed something.What do you mean those are my halberdiers.

Offline Holland

  • Posts: 184
Re: state troop training
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2009, 02:00:14 PM »
this is an interesting idea to say the least. I adds well to the detachment rules. I still wish that state troops were alittle harder to kill.

 :::cheers:::
I apologies in advances for all the thing I am about to say O_O

Offline commandant

  • Posts: 7403
Re: state troop training
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2009, 11:59:44 PM »

The orders i was thinking about were

Interlock Shields: The warriors in the unit gain a 2+ armour save but are at -ve 1 to hit the enemy as they are hiding behind a shield wall, Only useable by regiments with shields, cannot move that turn

Fire for Effect:(ranged units only) the unit waits till the last second to fire their ranged weapons doing as much damage to the enemy as possible. This would eliminate the 1ve 1 to stand and shoot and would mean that enemies always count as within short range when the unit is being charged, also the enemy will get a +1 to hit in cc. only used against chargers

Take the Horses: (only for spearmen or halberdiers) test at -ve 2 ld if enemy have lances, the soldiers will attack the enemy cavalry by killing the horses. horses are whatever toughness it says on the profile and have a 6+ save base or a 5+ save for barded warhorses. must be in close combat or being charged

o.k. cool I was thinking these would only work while the sergeant was still alive but I am not 100% sold on the idea. It might also be cool to let the captains or generals take over if the sergeant dies as they are trained military men also.

obviously these rules would only apply state troops with sergeants/duelists so detachment would not benefit from these rules. I think it makes our swordsmen and spearmen more survivable and our halberdiers actually useful in some situations, o.k. still not many but better than nothing.

o.k. please let us know what you think

I like the idea but I would have a few changes.   A shield wall can not charge and would have trouble marching but it should be able to move, after all the roman turtles were able to move and so were the saxon shield walls.   Also a properly trained soldier would not suffer from striking from behind a shield wall if using a long weapon like a spear or a short weapon like a short sword, ie roman or saxon.

The firing should get at least +1 to hit as they are waiting until the foe is in their face to fire and should always be able to stand and shoot

Also I would say a Sargent is vital for these orders though a captain or general could do it as well.   I would suggest though they can not use their leadership if they use this talents

Offline Derek Contyre

  • Posts: 1749
  • Duke of Nueremburg
Re: state troop training
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2009, 08:39:32 AM »
Ok @ interlock shields. nice idea but I have fought in a shield wall in real life before and it isn't that hard to hit someone, also the fluff about the norse says that shield walling is their 'thing'.

Fire for effect seems like a good idea but its always in short range anyway if we are being charged. How about making it always stand and shoot at chargers, no modifiers. Also so many things in the WH world are ws 4 or higher. I dont realluy want them to hit my piss weak troops on 2's.

Take the horses just seems to complicate matters although it would be a good idea. But remember horses never really charged into combat against a strong spear wall anyway they just rode up and stopped. It was the men riding the horses dressed from had to foot in armour that just butchered the foot troops. I say any cavalry or us 2 or higher must take a leadership test to charge any enemies armed with spears or pole arm like weapons(halberds) and only then against the front.
 If they fail the cav or ogres or whatever still charge but they dont get charging bonuses.

That reason alone I think would be a massive boost to our regular spearmen as well as keeping in line with historical warfare and even fluff. Like the more 'elite' troops will pass their higher LD tests easy while less experienced cavalry wont want to get stuck into the wall of sharp iron points.

Also I like it how once the imperial guard were re-released these things with orders came about. . .
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::

Offline Marcus_Octavius

  • Posts: 581
  • Strength and Honor
Re: state troop training
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2009, 01:43:40 AM »
Actually all Greatswords, Halberdiers, swordsmen & Spearmen should gain Immune to Fear/Terror/Panic when a Captain or General of the empire joins them.  The rule would be on the State Troops themselves rather than the character and only work with those 2 specific characters (similar to the Eternal guard rules).  And also allow any detachments to gain thesame benefits when within their 3" distance.

Also 1 unit of State troops with a Standard can carry a regimental award that will allow the unit to increase one stat by +1 for every model in the unit.  (WS, BS, ST, TO, IN, AT, LD)  This would allow for WS 5 Swordsmen to go toe-to-toe with some deadly foes and survive longer or allow Halberdiers to gain Strength 5 or your Spearmen could go to Toughness 4 for better defense or Handgunners/Crossbows could have a unti of expert marksmen at BS 4 or Greatswords can become Stubborn LD 9!

These two changes would allow all state troops to be worth their current points in the 7th edition enviroment by providing more common psychology protection and make the use of GotE and Captains much more widespread.  Halberdiers would finally be worthwhile and Greatswords with the +1 LD option could be joined by a BSB Captain to gain the Fear/Terror protection making them an excellent choice for a change!
-Aaron Chapman

Veni, Vidi, Vici - I came, I saw, I conquered

Offline commandant

  • Posts: 7403
Re: state troop training
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2009, 12:43:21 AM »
what cost are these awards

Offline shadrach3

  • Posts: 17
Re: state troop training
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2009, 05:00:37 AM »
I had an idea for a general rule for all state troops that would allow them to bring their numbers to the fight even against some of the other races elites that are striking first and hitting hard. 

To reinforce the idea of the Empires professionally drilled standing army allow all units with the state troops rule to always attack with at least half of the numbers they would normally be allowed, 3/5 for swords,halbs, great swords, 5/10 spearmen assuming 5 wide ranks. 

This demonstrates soldiers pressing forward stepping over fallen comrades to hold a fighting line without making one state troop type more powerful.  Other concerns about halberds and greatswords may still stand but it could be a good starting point?  Hope this generates some good discussion.

Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: state troop training
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2009, 07:27:31 AM »
ASB :  Always Strike Back.

I like it !
Have one  on Midaski's tab.  :::cheers:::
Famous last words. R.I.P.

Offline Inarticulate

  • Posts: 1599
Re: state troop training
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2009, 12:46:14 PM »
The Empire's Infantry will have the last laugh!
I for one welcome our new flying cat overlords.

Offline The Dice-Shaman

  • Posts: 68
Re: state troop training
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2009, 06:20:52 AM »
I like everyones thinking here! I do hope GW guys read our sections on these.  And just in case they do!


 :biggriin: cheers mates!  Thanks for all the hard work  :biggriin:

But if that 'team-killing-ft' Grahm McNiel is reading this I just want you to know:

YOU SHOT CHURCH!
If your Speculum falls into a river of lava, don't reach in after it.  It's already gone bro...

Offline Derek Contyre

  • Posts: 1749
  • Duke of Nueremburg
Re: state troop training
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2009, 11:44:08 AM »
The Imperial military machine falls prey to chaos because of you graham mcneil. . .
There are good things they put in but then they went, who needs to play a game based on warfare when we can have rediculous magic and monsters that take the field. . .

I have an itch to go play warhammer historical. . .

If they powerdown the empire any more i am gonna go play high elves. At least they have some decent rules. . . And I also like their fluff. High Elves was almost my next army too.
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::

Offline Union General

  • Posts: 883
  • Kicking butt since 1863.
Re: state troop training
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2009, 01:43:21 AM »
If they powerdown the empire any more i am gonna go play high elves. At least they have some decent rules. . . And I also like their fluff. High Elves was almost my next army too.

Agreed. And I'd still give 'em forage caps.  :-D

-The General
I like your thinking  Mr. General  what a Genius

Offline Derek Contyre

  • Posts: 1749
  • Duke of Nueremburg
Re: state troop training
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2009, 04:37:14 AM »
Just think of the conversion work you would be doing U.G.
An american civil war themed army for empire, you could have elvish redcoats almost, invading naggaroth. . . how it is meant to be.
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::

Offline Laerniss

  • Posts: 377
Re: state troop training
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2009, 01:18:13 AM »
Upgrades for State Troops would be nice, but let's face it. Empire is considered a "starting army" and I doubt the rules will ever become very complex or variable.

How about a "Veteran" upgrade for one, and only one, unit of State Troops in the army. Greatswords and Outriders are still the kings of their respective niches, with the Veterans second, then State Troops.

State Troop Veterans (1 unit only); +2 points per model. Increase stats to Initiative 4, and general's choice of either WS 4or BS 4.
  Also, State troops that have access to Light Armor may upgrade to Heavy Armor for extra +1 point per model.

Empire gains access to Spearman and Halberds with WS4 and Heavy Armor, or you can go for a unit of BS4 handguns or crossbows.

If you really think out of the box, upgrade your Huntsmen to WS4 and now they might actually be able to KILL a war machine crew instead of loosing to CR.

- Laerniss

Offline Joonz

  • Posts: 11
Re: state troop training
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2010, 02:11:03 PM »
I like these ideas, it would be cool if GW would make these kinds of upgrades in the 8th edition  :icon_lol: I think these rules would really help and make state troops really effective. Except that if a missile weapon unit regiment is charged and they fire at the last moment, the survivors of the other unit (if any) could in a way benefit from it as the missile weapon troops don't have time to get into close combat positions, so maybe the troops attacking gain +1 str? I mean I don't want this kind of rule but GW tends to create complicated rules to make the game realistic...  :closed-eyes: 
the fridge is empty, snowpanther

Offline Von Falster

  • Posts: 214
  • Veni, vedi, vici.
Re: state troop training
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2010, 06:01:56 PM »
The veteran rule's potential should stay within the range of similiar options (longbeards and big 'uns).
Eight will be remembered as the time of the Empire.
 
  Mark my words.

Offline General Cross

  • Posts: 17
Re: state troop training
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2010, 03:27:23 PM »
Ok if I may make a suggestion, I have an idea.
Halberds: same stat line i guess.
Imperial Shield Line: The Empire through its bloody history has had to defend its self time and time again. Imperial State Troops are so then taught how to brace for impact and can hold a strong shield wall against any foe.
Models in the Empire that have a shield and another weapon besides a hand weapon get a 6+ parry roll
Swordsmen on the other hand get a 5+ parry roll

Imperial Halberd- The Empires go to weapon is the Halberd and are the finest Halberd in the old world (Rivaling even the dwarfs and Elves) Imperial Halberds cause -1 to the targets amour save
NOTE: this is not armor piercing and so armor piercing can be added to it.

 

Offline duckman

  • Posts: 311
  • Painting Slacker!!
Re: state troop training
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2010, 02:41:27 AM »
G'day all,
firstly I think that the "standard human statline" argument is utterly pointless in regard to State troops. Yes,they are standard humans, but this takes no account of the years of training which a standing professional army undertakes (a la GW fluff). This then will necessitate a rather different statline to that of a "normal" untrained human (Brets etc). I can abslutely guarantee you that I fight better with a rifle and bayonet, for example, than my neighbour, but then I've spent 26 years making sure of it. Standard humans, trained vs not trained.
To reflect this in game terms I think that all State troops should be either WS4 for fighty units or BS4 for shooty. This would more truly align professional soldiers' training to their abilities. As with everything it will generate a points increase, yak yak yak....
I am also in favour of the idea of veteran troops, however I think we should go an extra step and make it a unit upgrade available to all units of State troops, again for a price (say +1 WS or +1 BS, +1T for x points/model). I'd really like to see the unit champ be an upgrade too, so the sergeant as he is remains, but allow for say a veteran sergeant with +1LD for whatever cost.
The idea of orders like IG have is a good one, again as an upgrade to a unit champ or character. Really liking that idea a lot :::cheers:::
Final rant from my soapbox: If we have been at war pretty much non-stop for 2 000 years, why then is there no option for armour upgrades for our troops? The ability to give State troops some decent armour is long overdue IMO.

Anyways, that's my 2cents' worth..
cheers
duckman
The King of Painting Slackness Land. Bow down before my awesome lack of effort!!!!

Offline Von Falster

  • Posts: 214
  • Veni, vedi, vici.
Re: state troop training
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2010, 02:30:26 PM »
Untrained warriors are WS2 (skeletons, men-at-arms, flagellants, goblins), experimented warriors are W3 (halberdiers, orcs, knights errant, saurus warrios), elites are WS4 (temple guard, knights of the realm, greatswords), and extraordinary warriors are WS5 or more (melee combat heroes, elf elites, dwarf elites, chaos warriors). The WS statline across the armies is very satisfying. No need to change anything.

I wouldn't allow heavy armor to be available to all melee combat state troops. Heavy armor should remain a specific niche in our army. Such armor is very costly to produce, and few armies have core infantry costing less than 10 points wearing heavy armor (stormvermin, dwarfs). At best, I would allow one unit of swordsmen, spearmen or halberdiers to be upgraded into a Honor Regiment (heavy armor) for 2 points per model.
Eight will be remembered as the time of the Empire.
 
  Mark my words.