Topic: A more balanced Mordheim- opinions on chaos warbands?

[Pistol Pete]

Hey everybody!

I've been avidly following the Mordheim threads here recently, and decided to dust off my work-in-progress house rules again.  We all know the game can be unblalanced and cheesy at times, and this puts off a lot of players.

This is my attempt to rebalance the game, in an attempt to make the game more balanced and fun for everybody.

What I need to know is all of the things that you hate about the game: Broken weapons, special items, warbands, bad rules... whatever.

I've already got a nice section of house rules for most of the basic weapons.  It's not entirely finished, but I'll post it when I'm through.

My next task is to re-balance the warbands.  I'd really like your input as to what you think needs work... which warbands are too good, which warbands are piss-poor, and which ones just have awkward or unfair rules.

To start with, I just want to cover the basic warbands in the main book:

Reikland Mercenaries
Marienburg Mercenaries
Middenhiem Mercenaries
Witch Hunters
Sisters of sigmar
Cult of the Possessed
Skaven
Undead

After I've gotten these sorted out, I'll work on the secondary warbands.

[Von Kurst]

I recommend these two fellows who have done some work for you--

http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/rules-and-gameplay-f1/wyldhunt-s-mordheim-compendium-t2585.htm

and

http://www.indadvendt.dk/mordheim/

[Pistol Pete]

I gave these a quick skim.

Some of thier ideas are in line with what I was already going for.  And some just seem kind of lame.  It's a mixed bag, but I may adapt some of thier rules.

One of the things I didn't really see was an explaination of what was changed and the reasons for why it changed.  This is useful info, and I'm trying to actually include the reasons behind my changes in the update so that those who consider using them understand why they might want to.

[Pistol Pete]

Mainly, easy choices. I'd like choosing weapons to be harder, with many different effective choices. At the moment, two maces are better than many other choices in most situations. I could still choose something else, but if I do I'm selecting a disadvantage.

Also, price things at their game value, not their fluff rarity. A sling is worth something like ten gold, not two.

I'm definately making the weapons more interesting, in addition to adding a few of my own.  Weapons is one of those areas i thought needed a lot of work, so I've done quite a bit of tinkering there.

As for slings... I've modified them a bit from the original and balanced them out a bit with shortbows.
-----------------------------------
Slings- 5g

Str 3, Range 16"

Multiple shots x2:  A warrior with a sling (who has not moved that turn) may fire 2 shots if the target is within 8", with a -1 modifier to hit. 

-----------------------------------
Short Bow- 5g

Str 3, Range 18"

Special Rules: "It's better than nothing!"- Short bows leave a lot to be desired, but thier simplicty and low cost make them an worthwhile option for warbands low on funds.  Any warrior who may take a bow, my opt for a shortbow instead.  The opposite is not true, however: warriors who only have a shortbow option may not take bows (for whatever reason, the shortbow is all thier warband is going to get them).
----------------------------------


Reasons for the changes: Obviously, slings are too good in thier current form.  I changed the slings to make it so that you couldn't move AND fire two shots that turn (GW made the same change to the online book). 

I raised the cost to 5 gold, to put them a little closer to what they should be worth.  There are only two warbands who use slings regularly (Sisters & Skaven), and I didn't want to change them too much (even though they're arguably worth more than 5g), lest I render those warbands ineffective.

I swapped the range for slings and shortbows to make the shortbows a bit better and the slings just a little less good.  Also it seemd strange that bows , for the most part, gain 6 inches for every step up, except for the short bow, which is 8 inches shorter than the bow.  This fixes that.

Lastly, I made the shortbow available to warriors who had access to a bow, because it seemed silly to restrict them to the worst shooters in the game.  This way, the short bow is more viable as an early game weapon to warbands who are feeling the crunch.  They won't be terribly useful for the later stagers in the game and aren't unbalancing, but I thought this was a nice way to make them more useful.

Thoughts?

[Pistol Pete]

Oh, I'm also considering allowing lead sling bullets (as opposed to rocks) to extend the range to 20" (a heroes-only upgrade, like hunting arrows).  This'll benefit the Sisters moreso than the Skaven (who have more dangerous weapons available).  Though I may make it a Sister's-only option (or give it to them as a common item at a discount). 

Thoughts?  What do you think the cost should be?

[Von Kurst]

On the links above--I said "some of the work" which is what I meant.  Both gentlemen are vocal "Mordheim must be changed" types, so I thought they might add something to the discussion.

Rufus--if you are interested in their reasons for some of their proposals you can PM them or just post a question on one of their threads on Tom's.  Both are active on that forum and have invited comment on their rules (that is the point of posting them on the internet).

On the sling--I don't have sling nightmares.  More to the point my group doesn't loathe the sling so I feel no pressure to change it.  I do have issues with swapping ranges between weapons that are a part of Warhammer fantasy because I would never remember the swap or would confuse it when playing Warhammer, whenever I do that again.

I have posted these on the other thread but I will do it here as well:

• Frenzy.  Frenzied models gain +1 attack, not double attacks.
• Sevens to Hit.  You may shoot at targets that require more than a six to hit as per Warhammer rules.
• Hard Cover.  Any obstructed shot must subtract the –1 to hit for cover.  However, if the obstruction is part of a ruined building, a stone temple, boulders or a brick wall then the model has hard cover.  Hard cover is –2 to hit.
• Defended Obstacle.  Charges over a wall, through a window/door or climbing up a wall or ladder lose any benefits normally allowed to chargers, i.e., combat order is determined by order of initiative and any special weapon bonuses that only apply when charging are lost.
• Armor Piercing. Gunpowder weapons are all considered armor piercing as per Warhammer Fantasy rules.  This rule affects swivel guns and blunderbusses.  Thus hits from these weapons have a –1 armor save modifier in addition to any for the strength of the weapon.
• Sheild and a hand weapon.  A model armed with a hand weapon, (sword, axe mace etc) and also equipped with a shield gains +1 armor save in hand to hand combat if it chooses to use the shield and hand weapon in combination. It must use the combination for the entire combat once the choice is made.
• Pistols in melee combat.  A model armed with a pistol may use it as a club once it has been fired in melee or if it is empty at the start of a melee.  All attacks made with an empty pistol are made at the warrior’s base strength.
• Magic Missiles.  A wizard must follow shooting rules for spells that require line of sight.
• Lances.  A mounted warrior armed with a lance gains +2 Strength bonus in the first turn of combat when charging.
• Looter.  If he is not prohibited from wearing armor, hero may use any armor acquired through exploration.
• Charges. The most direct rout does not have to be a straight line.

Situational House Rules
• Darkness.  At the beginning of a scenario that is set at night or underground roll 3D6. The result is the maximum distance a model may see (or in some cases move).  Weapons with templates that extend farther than the current range of vision will hit unseen models in the open on a D6 roll of 4+.  Roll for each eligible target.  Orcs, Goblins, Elves, Dwarves, Beastmen and Undead may add 6 inches to the range of vision.
• Dangerous Ground.  Any warrior wishing to run or charge in the dark must roll a D6.  On a roll of 6 the model has tripped and fallen.  The model is treated as Knocked Down until its next Recovery phase.  Animals, Daemons, Spirits and Undead need not test.  Ghouls are considered Undead for the purposes of this rule.

[Pistol Pete]

On the sling--I don't have sling nightmares.  More to the point my group doesn't loathe the sling so I feel no pressure to change it.  I do have issues with swapping ranges between weapons that are a part of Warhammer fantasy because I would never remember the swap or would confuse it when playing Warhammer, whenever I do that again.

Slings are one of the things I hear the most complaints about, though your local scene may have different types of cheese.  Slings are rarely used in warhammer, and even short bows aren't terribly common, so I wouldn't worry too much about it, particularly since so many other weapons rules are a little wonky.

I know it'll take a bit of adjustment, but since both the sling and short bow occupy the same niche (despite the sling is so much more versatile), that the short bow deserved a bit of a range bonus by way of compensation.

But be of good cheer!  These rules aren't official so you can feel free to use the ranges as issued, or do whatever else your warped little heart desires.  House rules are nice that way...   

A lot of your house rules are very common-sensical, and in fact some of them I came up with on my own.  Don't be surprised if you see some of them incorporated in my version of the rules.

[Von Kurst]

Slings--I do think it depends on what rules the group is playing with.  The Living Rule Book clarified the can't fire twice if the model moved and added the -1 modifier for firing twice.  That pretty much took care of any concerns. 

Also we rarely set our games in Mordheim.  The other settings have special weather rules and varied terrain which further limits things like slings.

Finally its been 2 yrs since anyone played a Skaven band in our group so we don't see a rat too often.  
Dwarfs on the other hand... There are way too many Dwarfs.

[GamesPoet]

Think I need to learn the game before even considering on partaking in threads like this one.

[ZeroTwentythree]

Super dense terrain really helps balance out some of the shooting. Not just buildings, but piles of rubble, liner obstacles, statues, etc. for warbands to hide behind and approach camped out shooters. Terrain helps balance out shooters without changing any rules.

Slings... yeah. I do like those changes.

[Pistol Pete]

Super dense terrain really helps balance out some of the shooting. Not just buildings, but piles of rubble, liner obstacles, statues, etc. for warbands to hide behind and approach camped out shooters. Terrain helps balance out shooters without changing any rules.

I definately plan on having lots of terrain for my personal use, but I do think there should probably be some rules for having a certain minimum amount of terrain.  And obstacles.

Looking at Rufas's thread, it's really shocking about how bland the game looks with those miniature boxes standing in as buildings.  The Mordheim vibe really *needs* some decent buildings to build atmosphere.  Because let's face it, this is a very atmoshpheric game.

Just compare that mordheim table to this one.  Which would you rather play on?



Granted, I don't think your table needs to be this good (most people don't have the time or energy), but I think you can get something that's pretty close without too much effort.  Especially if each member brings in one building, a year or so (depending on the gaming club).

But personally, I want my table to look something like that.   

[ZeroTwentythree]

Amazing table! 

Like I said, it doesn't even have to be all buildings. Just lots of cover & hiding spots. Even if you have about half that many buildings, then fill in the rest in with piles of rubble & other bits of terrain.

[Pistol Pete]

Amazing table!

What's really amazing is that  lot of the building lift off the table to reveal basements, and catecombs, and tunnels underground.   

I think I'd do mine a little less cluttered, and I'm thinking i'd do it with more damage to the buildings, and lots of hastily constructed "repairs" and "improvements" made since the impact of ther comet.

I'm thinking buildings with holes where chunks of the comet have plowed through, elevated platforms connecting buildings together, hasty fortifications, etc.  Plus lots of weird and distrubing scenic pieces that hint at the madness that overtook Mordheim.

I'm also thinking of a modular system where things can be moved around to change up the layout so that things stay fresh and interesting.

[Pistol Pete]

Back to the rules...

One of the things I've noticed about mordheim is that high strength can get out of hand relatively quickly.  I think strength 9 is actually possible with the right combinations.

My point is this:  Do you think there should be a cap on strength levels?  Given that there's not nearly as much need for it in Mordheim (due to the lack of really hard armor saves), it seems odd that strength levels can go so high, particularly when so many models can get so many attacks.

What I'm thinking of is simply capping strength at 6 (or maybe 7 if there's a real need).  Any combination that gives a higher strength than 6 would simply be treated as a 6. 

What do you guys think?

[Freman Bloodglaive]

i think the best toughness is about 5, so strength 7+ will wound on 2+ and effectively above that point there's no point in boosting strength. What effectively (other than bragging rights) is the difference between strength 9 and 7 when rolling to wound toughness 4?
Above  certain point it's just a waste of an advance.

[Timbor]

I remember the old specialist games forum had some experimental rules.  The ones I can remember were:

- When fighting with 2 hand weapons, models suffer -2 to hit with both attacks, due to the amount of skill needed to fight with two weapons
- In addition, a new combat skill was introduced so that heroes can fight with 2 weapons with no penalty
- Armour was generally made cheaper
- When fighting HTH with shield or buckler, you get +1 armour save
- I think it was also suggested that armour might give you a special save on the serious injuries table if you are taken out of action

I like the penalties for fighting with 2 hand weapons - means that heroes will be the only ones able to do it without penalty (once they have the skill).

I had also thought, for the sling dilemma, to create a skaven "marksman" type henchman and limit them to 4, and only let them and heroes have slings, so that not the whole warband can use them and spam sling attacks.  The above mentioned changes for moving and shooting is good too.

Tim

[rufus sparkfire]

Attacking with shields and bucklers. You should be able to. At -1 strength or something.

[Uryens de Crux]

A point of interest but Warhammer Historical have recently released a new rule book called "High Seas" which is a game of piratey skirmish and campaigning

Having flicked through it, the rules are clearly based on Mordheim so it might be of interest to Mordheim players

Also its a nice book.

[GamesPoet]

Uryens ... do you mean "Legends of the High Seas"

By the way ... that is an amazing terrain board shown further up.  I'd be happy with even a 4x4 board that looks like that, and if the pieces are removeable than things could always be changed up for variety, and newly created buildings could be built for use, too.

[Uryens de Crux]

Probably, I'll tell you when my copy arrives 

[Von Kurst]

Wolfgang's work--

http://gidian-gelaende.de/03c19899280940b01/03c19899c4139102b/03c198995a14eed01/index.php

Truly amazing stuff.

Apparently the boards are interchangeable to give variety, the buildings may be as well but I don't understand German well enough to say for sure...

Legends of the High Seas--for more discussion see the Ship thread

http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=25036.125

and Lord Soth's modeling thread on the B & P. 

http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=29041.0

For ship battles in a Mordheim setting see my threads in the Imperial Office.
For recent photos--

http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/battle-reports-and-fluff-f11/a-lustrian-dawn-a-cities-of-gold-campaign-by-the-vmc-t2408-50.htm#41635

(Scroll up a post or two on that page.) 

[Pistol Pete]

Attacking with shields and bucklers. You should be able to. At -1 strength or something.

I was considering this too, but I didn't want to give high-strength models an extra attack at high strength, with no penalities.  Your incredibly obvious solution slipped right past me.

I'll add this to the list.

Insert Quote
i think the best toughness is about 5, so strength 7+ will wound on 2+ and effectively above that point there's no point in boosting strength. What effectively (other than bragging rights) is the difference between strength 9 and 7 when rolling to wound toughness 4?
Above  certain point it's just a waste of an advance.

Well, I thought I'd go with str 6 because it keeps armor useful.  I may go up to str 7 if big gribblies (vamps & posessed) start to get out of control, but 6 is a good base to experiment with.

If armor is more useful, black powder weapons become more useful, as well as axes and anything else with a armor piercing profile.  I want weapon selection to be fun, rather than obvious.

- When fighting with 2 hand weapons, models suffer -2 to hit with both attacks, due to the amount of skill needed to fight with two weapons
- In addition, a new combat skill was introduced so that heroes can fight with 2 weapons with no penalty
- Armour was generally made cheaper
- When fighting HTH with shield or buckler, you get +1 armour save
- I think it was also suggested that armour might give you a special save on the serious injuries table if you are taken out of action

I like the penalties for fighting with 2 hand weapons - means that heroes will be the only ones able to do it without penalty (once they have the skill).

A -2 penalty for both weapons seems rather extreme, to me.  Currently I'm thinking a -1 penalty for the second weapon, but that's probably as low as I'll go.  If armor is more commonly used, the two weapon setup will be less useful, and the penalties won't be necessary.

I am, however, going over some propositions to make combat more survivable.

Armor will be cheaper and more commonly avaialble for low level henchmen (I've already added the hand weapon and sheild bonus, which is a very common house rule already).  Artmor will be more effective (due to the strength cap), and as you mentioned before, it might be agood idea to reduce the chance of serious wounds/death for an armored warrior.

I'm also working on some rules for recovering wounded warriors who have been taken out of action.  They'll be a little less likely to die or have debilitating wounds, and if they do die, you'll at least be able to scavenge the equipment (making things like expensive armor a little harder to swallow).

[rufus sparkfire]

I'm also working on some rules for recovering wounded warriors who have been taken out of action.  They'll be a little less likely to die or have debilitating wounds, and if they do die, you'll at least be able to scavenge the equipment (making things like expensive armor a little harder to swallow).

I like that. The rules for henchmen death especially are really harsh, and one of the things that puts you off trying to play the game properly rather than just showing up and fleeing at the earliest opportunity in order to go shopping.

I'd like more incentive towards the war game part of Mordheim than the let's roll exploration dice and buy things side.

[GamesPoet]

Probably, I'll tell you when my copy arrives 

If yes, I've seen this, and I've toyed with getting it myself.  There were a handful of guys that created ships and small skirmish armies from the three lists inside the rules.  It looks like some interesting modeling possiblities, and I could see how this game system might even fit into internet campaign events wiht some quick play scenarios.

I just don't have time for everything.

[Justin Hill]

pistol pete: is that your table?! 

If so I'd love some close ups, tutorials etc !