Topic: Can the tank be healed?

[Aldaris]

Is that so? The impossibility I mean? Because that's how some of them seem to work...

Yes according to the BRB it is impossible, BRB says roll to cast roll to dispel apply effect, that is the logic behind magic as described in the BRB

One part of it. That part doesn't mention the attributes, does it?

They are more akin to the Couldron of blood, than to spell. This are things that just happen when triggered, they are not part of the spell it self unless they so say it, like the light or heavens ones.

And yet the line I quoted says they are applied to the spell. So the Cauldron is a bit of a poor comparison, isn't it?

[xxvaderxx]

They are more akin to the Couldron of blood, than to spell. This are things that just happen when triggered, they are not part of the spell it self unless they so say it, like the light or heavens ones.

And yet the line I quoted says they are applied to the spell. So the Cauldron is a bit of a poor comparison, isn't it?

The BRB says:
"...This is essentially a grouping of one or more special rules that are applied to certain spells from that lore".
It says spell which != spell effect. It says nothing about them being part of the spell effect by default, thow some in particular, are later on defined that way.

As far as rules go so far, no, it is a very good comparison, the only diference is that the Cauldron is on demand.

[Aldaris]

The BRB says:
"...This is essentially a grouping of one or more special rules that are applied to certain spells from that lore".

I know it said that, because I, you know, quoted it?

It says spell which != spell effect.

You're confusing things. I consider the attributes to be spell effects, I obviously don't consider the spells themselves to be spell effects. That would be silly, wouldn't you agree?

It says nothing about them being part of the spell effect by default, thow some in particular, are later on defined that way.

No, but it says that they are special rules applied to spells. Which kind of creates a connection, don't you agree?

[xxvaderxx]

You're confusing things. I consider the attributes to be spell effects, I obviously don't consider the spells themselves to be spell effects.

"...This is essentially a grouping of one or more special rules that are applied to certain spells from that lore".

That is 100% an asumption on your part, they are defined as special rules of the spells, not as bonus effects or anything of the sort. Some clearly behave as part of the effect, some dont, and some like this one in particular are in a grayer area.

[Shadowlord]

I have been watching this thread closely, wondering which one of you two is gonna fold first...

[Aldaris]

That is 100% an asumption on your part, they are defined as special rules of the spells, not as bonus effects or anything of the sort.

The whole magic system is special rules. Sure it is an assumption on my part, but it does have a good argument to back it up.

Some clearly behave as part of the effect, some dont, and some like this one in particular and in a grayer area.

It is irrelevant to my argument whether they are part of the spells effect. The only thing relevant is that they are applied to a spell cast from that lore. They are tacked on to it. Which makes them, as I assume with good reason, spell effects according to the STeam Tanks rules. QED.

I have been watching this thread closely, wondering which one of you two is gonna fold first...

I am wounded! Hello? It's me!
 

[xxvaderxx]

I have been watching this thread closely, wondering which one of you two is gonna fold first...

Fold? not me, i dont think they are defined as spell effect but i do see some work that way, i think this merits a FAQ, which obviously those lazy asses are not going to put out.

[Aldaris]

which obviously those lazy asses are not going to put out.

Those lazy asses you hate so much just gave us a whole new edition, let's give it some time. I look forward to my first games tomorrow!

[xxvaderxx]

which obviously those lazy asses are not going to put out.

Those lazy asses you hate so much just gave us a whole new edition, let's give it some time. I look forward to my first games tomorrow!

Ppl are judged on past performances, for their future result.

[Shadowlord]

Fold? not me,

Ha ha ha... You lost! 

[Skyros]

Yes it is, but you'd still need to be able to cast a spell at it in the first place for that to take effect. so Flock of Doom and the Amber Spear would have a reduced casting difficulty, all others from the lore can't target it.

If the Beasts and Fire perks work on the steamtank (and I'd be shocked if anyone argued they didn't) then I think you have to let the life perk work on it as well.

They aren't spells. They are just special rules. Saying that the steam tank is immune to special rules caused by spells is quite a stretch - would you argue that a unit that is buffed by a spell can't use that buff against the steam tank because it's a 'spell effect'?

This is all RAW of course. I wouldn't be surprised to see a FAQ come out saying you can't. OTOH can any of the other T10 multi wound models be healed? If so, the ST getting healed may not be such a big deal.

[Aldaris]

If the Beasts and Fire perks work on the steamtank (and I'd be shocked if anyone argued they didn't) then I think you have to let the life perk work on it as well.

Beast and Fire perks have an effect on the mage casting at it, not on the STank itself, as opposed to the life attribute. There is a significant difference.

would you argue that a unit that is buffed by a spell can't use that buff against the steam tank because it's a 'spell effect'?

Of course not, because a unit buff affects the unit buffed, not the unit it is fighting.

OTOH can any of the other T10 multi wound models be healed? If so, the ST getting healed may not be such a big deal.

The STanks Toughness is not the issue, the fact that it has a special rule regarding what magic can affect it is.

[Skyros]

It's clear that the perks are not spells. Thus, the steam tank can, RAW, be affected by them. I don't think there's any plausible argument here. (And the fire perk affects the tank, not the caster - it works for any fire mage IIRC).

Of course not, because a unit buff affects the unit buffed, not the unit it is fighting.

It obviously effects them both. Suddenly my steam tank is getting hit by S8 attacks thanks to the 'spell effect' of occams mind razor. Using your interpretation, that any 'spell effect' that affects the tank is verboten, so would buffs helping people fighting the tank.

My point about the T10 is because I think it's plausible that a steam tank that can be healed is a bit OP, thus I would not be surprised if there was an errata/FAQ changing it. If other T10 guys can be healed, then maybe GW is ok with it.

[xxvaderxx]

The STanks Toughness is not the issue, the fact that it has a special rule regarding what magic can affect it is.

To be fair, it is not magic wich cant afect it, its spells. The magic weapon that hits on targets T+1 will absolutelly fuck him up.

I dont think it is that OP, the problem with the stank has always been the SP, which has not changed and it is why the tank is not such a popular unit to begin with, its use was controversial at best.

[Aldaris]

It's clear that the perks are not spells. Thus, the steam tank can, RAW, be affected by them. I don't think there's any plausible argument here.

Read the STanks rule. It mentions spell effects, not spells. And why I think that applies to Lore Attributes I have laid out in some detail.

IIt obviously effects them both. Suddenly my steam tank is getting hit by S8 attacks thanks to the 'spell effect' of occams mind razor. Using your interpretation, that any 'spell effect' that affects the tank is verboten, so would buffs helping people fighting the tank.

Now you are grasping for straws.

The magic weapon that hits on targets T+1 will absolutelly fuck him up.

Yes.

[Syn Ace]

I dunno -- STank is only effected by spells that do S attacks because it's metal bulk dissipates most magic.  Do they still have the Pit of Taurnus spell in 8th? I know the pdf still has an example where that spell has no effect on the STank and it's supposedly opening a big hole under it.

[Skyros]

Read the STanks rule. It mentions spell effects, not spells. And why I think that applies to Lore Attributes I have laid out in some detail.

Spell effects are the same thing as spells. The spell effects are what is listed as happening in the lore for that particular spell.

If you're trying to apply a broader interpretation to spell effects as 'things that happen as a result of a spell happening' then, yeah, it starts meaning the steam tank is immune to things like the extra strength a spell granted an enemy unit. After all, that's a 'spell effect'.

[Cannonofdoom]

Pg 491 of the BRB: "A lore attribute might give certain spells an extra effect against a particular troop type, or alter the way a spell behaves. Regardless of the detail, a lore attribute only has an effect on spells from it's own lore."

Lore Attributes are spell effects. They only affect spells, and are not, therefore, standalone abilities. Lifebloom gives the extra effect of a single model within 12" of the casting wizard regaining a wound lost earlier in the battle. This is an effect of casting a Lore of Life spell. Steam Tank is therefore not affected.

Return to your homes. Nothing more to see here.

[Wendersnaven]

Cannon, will you be my rules lawyer?  I promise only to call if I wanna punch the other guy. 

[Cannonofdoom]

I just wish I had gotten here sooner. I could have saved this one!

 

[Cannonofdoom]

If the Beasts and Fire perks work on the steamtank (and I'd be shocked if anyone argued they didn't) then I think you have to let the life perk work on it as well.

All other spell effects are ignored. Lore Attributes do not work on the Steam Tank. Period.

[Cannonofdoom]

It obviously effects them both. Suddenly my steam tank is getting hit by S8 attacks thanks to the 'spell effect' of occams mind razor. Using your interpretation, that any 'spell effect' that affects the tank is verboten, so would buffs helping people fighting the tank.

This logic is flawed. Buffs do not affect the Steam Tank. In the case of Occam's Mindrazor (which is the best pun in the whole book IMO) it is a spell effect that modifies the strength of the target unit. The Steam Tank is not the target of the spell effect, therefore it works. It is not immune to something that does not affect it.

[Wendersnaven]

+1 and that logic digresses to saying things like you can't wound it with magic weapons and so on.  To deny the +Str spell to men hitting your stank is nearly pointless now that it's T10, unless you hate all good natured children and enjoy kicking puppies in the jaw...

Tacos on me guys!     We going to win a lot thanks to not being able to heal our stanks!

[Aldaris]

I just wish I had gotten here sooner. I could have saved this one!

 

We were saying the same thing, you Jolly-Roger-toting latecomer!
 

[Cannonofdoom]

All I did was quote the two sentances AFTER the one skyros quoted.

Maybe if YOU had read the book ...