Topic: Orcs and Goblins - overpowered?

[Not-not-kenny]

Hello all! I have been playing some games with my mates (skaven, dwarfs and orcs & goblins) and one thing that bugs me is that the guy with the O&G army seems unbeatable!

Has anyone else had this problem or are me and my other friends just horribly unlucky?

Could it be that thanks to their recent rule update they've been taken up a notch in comparison to us who have 7th edition army books?

Maybe I'm just being paranoid...

[GambitGriffin]

Hello there!

Well, what list do you and the OnG player use? I think OnG and Empire is as pretty even match up. Empire can blast OnG away with artillery and magic and the steam tank can more or less just neutralise the best unit in the OnG army.
The thing I fear most is the trolls! Without something that gives flaming attacks those rivertroll is a real pain in the ass. 

[Finlay]

I would definitely rank skaven and empire higher than OnG, and possibly dwarfs too.

OnG are fairly middle ground, Empire and Skaven are two of the best army books.

Skaven's magic has much lower casting values than the 8th spells, and empires artillery (MORTARS) is cheaper than 8th edition artillery, and we are the only army to get free DD from characters.



Maybe your Orc friend is just better than you?
OR he is having great luck.
OR he has built a strong OnG list (lots of night gobbos, trolls, savage orc with shaman and shrunken head), and your lists aren't as strong.

[Hoodling]

I think all the 8th ed lists are about on a par with each other, and are pretty well-aligned with the average strength of 7th ed books (so not as good as something like daemons, but not bad either).

Orcs and Goblins are a bit funny and if what you're taking matches up badly with what the orc player takes, you'll be in trouble. For instance, any list that could run into greenskins needs options to deal with Mangler Squigs and Pump Wagons before they make contact. Otherwise they'll cause untold damage, and they cost very little. In a straight up fight, the good Orc units tend to hit hard, but with miserable initiative. Things like Flagellants vs Savage Orc Big'Uns are spectacular and bloody.

Also, Orcs and Goblins lack good answers to the Steam Tank. So if you're really struggling, field one of those and use it to interfere with the stuff you don't like.

[Cpt. Wham]

The O&G go-cart list, which consists of tons and tons of tiny drops that are either incredibly annoying (pump wagons, chariots, spider riders etc.), or strangly effective (mangler squigs, hoppers, fanatics, small units of trolls), can be really hard to play against.   Throw in a couple of bad moon templates bouncing around the table and you have a ton of things to try and deal with at once.  Animosity still really hurts them, but it's not enough to cripple the army. 

I wouldn't say they are overpowered, but they have lots of neat new tools which can be a pain to deal with.  Keep in mind that their army can do as much damage to itself as it can to you, and don't get frustrated when you lose to a luck-based army.   

[Not-not-kenny]

All of us with magicians in our armies have been playing one lvl2 and one lvl4 each, with varying effects. I myself have never played a 2000pts battle without a cannon, a mortar and a steamtank, so I don't think Im lacking in artillery. I think my biggest drawback has been my unit of knights: "the Order of Incredibly Unbelievble Bad Luck", who in five games managed to do no more than kill a few spider riders.

The thing is my bad luck (the aforementioned knights are only the tip of the iceberg) is always countered against his insane luck. For example, his fanatics have caused horrible havoc every game and only once have thay som much as touched his own units, and even then he benefited from it! Then he has his 40 strong unit of big'uns for 8 pts apiece.

I actually don't mind losing as long as it's been a fun game, it's just that this guy can get a bit cocky and I really don't think it would hurt him to get knocked down a notch.

[Syn Ace]

That's it? Only a cannon, a mortar, and a steam tank? You're definitely lacking in artillery. 

[Hoodling]

Make sure you field several throw-away detachments to draw out/sit on fanatics and any manglers that get too far out in front. Your army should be able to out-shoot his, so if you make sure you're patient enough to deal with the fanatics etc before you properly engage, it will help.

If luck is your problem, make sure you get yourself rerolls wherever possible, such as with a warrior priest to give your knights hatred. Flagellants are good like that too. If you're conservative with your steam points, the steam tank is ideal. Try to minimise the luck involved and you should be OK. You have a lot more control over your army than he has over his. Sooner or later the tide should turn.

[Not-not-kenny]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I already have an engineer covering my artillery and that reroll has definately paid off, but as you say I could really use more of that. Probably a BSB (yeah, haven't used one because of lack of model to represent it) and drop my level 2 wizard as I realized that relying on magic is really not good for me.

I am also planning on dusting of my Lizardmen to see if it's just bad luck or me being sucky at Warhammer that is making me lose so hard.

[Ambrose]

Keep the level two wizard and drop the level 4.  Take an Arch Lector on war altar (ward save, unbreakable, magic resistance, prayers, hatred, one light spell per turn, etc.).  Bulk up any blocks as much as possible and take 3 mortars.  Let him come to you.

Just a thought.

[Essexkiwi]

As a long-term O&G player I can assure you that greenskins are not even remotely overpowered, seriously.   If you find O&G to be so hard how on earth have you got on against Skaven who are indeed a top-tier army?

Whatever your mate is fielding in an O&G list you have all the tools with Empire to deal with it.  It does seem that you've been using a weak build with minimal artillery, and not having a BSB is a serious omission.  What is it that's causing your knights to fare so badly?  Does he field lots of fanatics, or double Doom-Divers?  Give us an idea of what units he's fielding for some suggestions on what best to use to counter them.

[Not-not-kenny]

The ones who have made the most damage are his three fanatics in a unit of night goblins, 40 big'uns, 10 spider riders, and arachnarok with a level 4 loremaster shaman.

The skaven player has a pretty stable build and in our latest game i won with only 12 victory points.

[rufus sparkfire]

arachnarok with a level 4 loremaster shaman.

Really?

Doesn't he get cannoned to death pretty rapidly?

[Fandir Nightshade]

I think he doesn´t realize that both models are hit with each cannonball.



Still I suggest you add a second cannon that should take care of

- Arachnarork spider /+ shaman

- chariots


I suggest you add to units of 5 free company that have an urgent mission to reach the enemies lines and do nothing but marching towards those goblin blocks.

The rest is free to your choice Empire has enough candy to make different set ups work.

[csjarrat]

not with only one cannon, one mortar and a steam tank apparently

[Not-not-kenny]

I think he doesn´t realize that both models are hit with each cannonball.

I think you're right.

One thing that bugs me alot is how cheap his models are, I mean a big'un has WS4 S4(5 in the first round of combat) T4 and 4+ armour save, that's almost as good as a Lizardmen temple guard for only 8 points!

[Finlay]

how does it have 4+ armour save? Is he cheating a bit? Ie the shaman and spider not getting hit. Take 2 cannons and blast the spider. Should kill the shaman and spider in 2 rounds.
BSBs are also mandatory for 8th edition!

Orc Big uns arent really that good- a bit too expensive. Night goblins for steadfast numbers
and savage big uns for killing!

Good things in the empire list:
Halberdiers!
artiller and engineers
warrior priests and Arch lectors.
BSB

You will also need some cheap throwaway units to get the fanatics out and the mangler squigs.
The fanatics shouldnt do that much damage to your state troop blocks though.
How are spider riders doing much damage to you? and squig hoppers. Light cavalry isnt that good anymore.

[Not-not-kenny]

In the beginning the spider riders were a pain in the backside as they always sneaked up on me and destroyed my artillery, but I got that more or less covered now with my outriders for example. Then I've also been extremely unlucky as mentioned, like in one recent game when I got five clear cannon shots of his shamans (before he got the arachnarok), one of them even on both, and missed all of them.

Btw does the shaman and the spider both get hit with the same cannonball, or how did you mean?

[Finlay]

How do you miss with the cannon, when you don't guess range.
How does an orc big un have a 4+ save

yes, cannons hit both the monster and the rider.

Do you have an 8th ed book?

[Not-not-kenny]

How do you miss with the cannon, when you guess range.
How does an orc big un have a 4+ save

yes, cannons hit both the monster and the rider.

Do you have an 8th ed book?

Bad luck with the artillery dice (do you still guess the range without measuring, that's not how we play?)

Sorry, that should be 5+ and a parry save got them way mixed up 

So, both the rider and the monster get, what is it, D6 wounds? (I don't personally have the rule book, we share it, so I can't remember everything right now, but it's there when we play).

[Finlay]

you don't guess ranges, So you say "i am shooting 7 inches in front of the cannon" and then roll the artillery dice. Unless you misfire, roll a 2 and a 2, or a 2 and 4, you are going to hit whatever you are shooting at.
So with the mortar you say "I am aiming it into the middle of this night goblin unit" and then roll the scatter dice.

And yes, then you do d6 wounds (if you wound) to both the spider and the shaman.

[Not-not-kenny]

That's pretty much how we do it with all cannon-like artillery. Is there something wrong with it?

[Finlay]

Ah, I typo'd in my original post! I should have said "how do you miss with the cannon when you don't guess range"

sorry for the confusion!

[Not-not-kenny]

Ah then I get it! The answer is bad luck, bad luck and then some more bad luck 

[Eighty]

pistoliers are also great for drawing out fanatics (especially if you get first turn! vanguard, then sweep across his frontage), they can then give themselves up for the greater good by running into manger squigs

2 war machines at 2k is very ballsy    i usually have 4 pieces! (you can still fit a tank in there too! tho i usually put one in at 2500)
with 2 cannons that spider should not last the first few rounds, well unless you misfire 

s4 halberds will die in droves, but still put up a fight vs orcs with proper support

with the help of Sigmar we shall smite this orcish heathen down !