Topic: My disappointments about new book

[Kirgan]

1. NO NEW NORMAL KNIGHTS 
2. Greatswords more cost but no better (maybe they are sell them to much) even with magic standard
3. Ugly riders of demis
4. Cartoon lover sculpt again (Pumbagor (Lion King) , Ogre Mournfang (Ice Age), and now Griffon (Hercules or some other cant remember but never the less it is same)
5. Steam Tank (easy to explode)
6. War Altar (only stubborn it could be ok but...)
7. Upgrade kit for knightly orders (COOL ONE)
That is all for now 

[rothgar13]

Only 2 of these actually have anything to do with the actual contents of the armybook, and those are frankly unfounded. The STank got cheaper, faster, and overall more useful, and going from Unbreakable to Stubborn on something that will be enjoying Ld9 at the absolute minimum is almost irrelevant. If you have modeling concerns, state them as such.

[Spiney]

Here are my disappointments
1. Mortars; just why would you do that
2. Handgunners, why would you make an already sub-par unit more expensive?
3. Swordsmen point increase, ok the initiative stabiliser was long overdue, but putting them up?
4. Magic altars are for celestial/light colleges, and I know I can bring them as a rare and have my wizard lord from a different college, but dammit I like my army to be themed!
5. Greatsword standard bearer can't take the griffon banner
6. No fix for pistoliers

Here are the things I like about the new book
1. Cannons are finally costed appropriately
2. Spearmen now look pretty attractive as a parent unit choice
3. The hurricanum is awesome from every standpoint
4. Detachment rules look better, and they can count towards core requirement
5. Steam tank more reliable
6. I finally have a reason to take a General over an AL other than "I hate religious nut-jobs"

So I guess you could say my reaction to the new book is about 50:50, I'm gutted that so much of the list has been... gutted, and I'm really sorry for the guys who built their lists on flaggellants and war altar only to find your flags are now crapola. New books where big chunks of the list become non-choices is never a good thing, maybe we will see the return of flaggellants, handgunners, swordsmen and mortars with the 9th ed core rule book, or maybe we'll have to wait for our 9th ed army book and hope they give the project to someone with actual ability.

[Talben21]

Its Ld 9 only as long as you don't face leadership penalities from spells or from effects such as vampire auro or the standard of dispair. Even worse the AL on top does not get a 4+ ward save so he is just sitting out there all ready to get sniped. Oh and lets not forget that it lost its magic restistance! All of that just so it can increase in cost of 50 points. Bottom line is that the war-altar is now garbage! Dwarves, Orcs and Ogres will all just kill it with shooting.

Oh and dwarves, Orgres and Orcs all are better in the shooting phase than Empire! Hurray! I haven't even touched upon flaggelants costing way too much, state troops being too much and the wizard mobiles being giant targets for people to blast with spells/artillery. Also, there is ZERO benefit of putting your wizard on those stupid things.

Just face it... The Empire book is weak. Very weak!

[rothgar13]

See, the loss of the 4+ Ward save for the AL and the loss of bound spells combined with the price increases are legitimate points. But those were not the points that were made.

As per putting your Wizards on the Wagons... you can bring the Wagon without having the Wizard on it - do that instead. The elements that made Empire successful the last time are weak, that much is true. But they replaced them with a bunch of new ones. You can have a static +1 to hit and Hatred on your troops, without casting a single spell - that sort of force multiplier is hard to find. The detachment system working will help make up for the increased cost of State Troops. I say quit your whining and try it out before you pass judgment. You're going to have to re-learn the army, because it's not the Empire you played before.

[Spiney]

Its Ld 9 only as long as you don't face leadership penalities from spells or from effects such as vampire auro or the standard of dispair. Even worse the AL on top does not get a 4+ ward save so he is just sitting out there all ready to get sniped. Oh and lets not forget that it lost its magic restistance! All of that just so it can increase in cost of 50 points. Bottom line is that the war-altar is now garbage! Dwarves, Orcs and Ogres will all just kill it with shooting.

Oh and dwarves, Orgres and Orcs all are better in the shooting phase than Empire! Hurray! I haven't even touched upon flaggelants costing way too much, state troops being too much and the wizard mobiles being giant targets for people to blast with spells/artillery. Also, there is ZERO benefit of putting your wizard on those stupid things.

Just face it... The Empire book is weak. Very weak!

Please tell me you are kidding, a chariot that gives both itself and the character riding it a 4++ is worth more than the war altar cost in the last book, it was the single most underpriced, overpowered lord mount in the entire game, not to mention how overpowered priests and especially arch lectors were in 8th edition with their dispel dice generation, actually I think I've found something else I like about the new book, war altar appropriately costed, priests no-longer generate DD.

Having such an obvious must-take choice is as bad as having an obvious non-choice.

And I know that I can use a hurricanum without a wizard on it and take a L4 metal wizard, but that grates on my fluff brain, I just don't think the celestial college would deploy a priceless sorcerous orb given by Teclis himself without at least one of their guys being their to look after it. Plus I LOVE the idea of a powerful wizard chucking his spells off a platform on his very own wagon of doom.

I was already planning to magnetise the acolyte and celestial wizard to make them interchangeable, I guess which way I field them will depend mostly on how competitive a game I am playing. Sadly there is only 1 buff in the lore of heavens and it is terrible. Light is much better, but the wagon just isn't as useful.

[Timothias]

Got the book here - I'm really looking forward to getting some games in. I don't have to listen to complaints anymore either about how broken things are! I'm definitely in the 'glass is half full' camp., and feel no need to power game. I just enjoy the Empire and this rendition is no different.

For the record though, the steam tank can only use up to 3 steam points to move, making it's maximum movement 3D6. And birona's timewarp can't affect it because it now uses the  Random Movement special rule. Nice 360 degree charging though with an average of 10.5 inches.

[Spiney]

Got the book here - I'm really looking forward to getting some games in. I don't have to listen to complaints anymore either about how broken things are! I'm definitely in the 'glass is half full' camp., and feel no need to power game. I just enjoy the Empire and this rendition is no different.

For the record though, the steam tank can only use up to 3 steam points to move, making it's maximum movement 3D6. And birona's timewarp can't affect it because it now uses the  Random Movement special rule. Nice 360 degree charging though with an average of 10.5 inches.

Hmmm, that is interesting, and something I didn't notice before, in one sense it's a bit random, and most annoyingly it really cuts down the amount of impact hits you can cause, but it does mean there won't be the temptation to generate maximum steam points early in the game and blow your tank up on your own line.

[Talben21]

Its Ld 9 only as long as you don't face leadership penalities from spells or from effects such as vampire auro or the standard of dispair. Even worse the AL on top does not get a 4+ ward save so he is just sitting out there all ready to get sniped. Oh and lets not forget that it lost its magic restistance! All of that just so it can increase in cost of 50 points. Bottom line is that the war-altar is now garbage! Dwarves, Orcs and Ogres will all just kill it with shooting.

Oh and dwarves, Orgres and Orcs all are better in the shooting phase than Empire! Hurray! I haven't even touched upon flaggelants costing way too much, state troops being too much and the wizard mobiles being giant targets for people to blast with spells/artillery. Also, there is ZERO benefit of putting your wizard on those stupid things.

Just face it... The Empire book is weak. Very weak!

Please tell me you are kidding, a chariot that gives both itself and the character riding it a 4++ is worth more than the war altar cost in the last book, it was the single most underpriced, overpowered lord mount in the entire game, not to mention how overpowered priests and especially arch lectors were in 8th edition with their dispel dice generation, actually I think I've found something else I like about the new book, war altar appropriately costed, priests no-longer generate DD.

Having such an obvious must-take choice is as bad as having an obvious non-choice.

And I know that I can use a hurricanum without a wizard on it and take a L4 metal wizard, but that grates on my fluff brain, I just don't think the celestial college would deploy a priceless sorcerous orb given by Teclis himself without at least one of their guys being their to look after it. Plus I LOVE the idea of a powerful wizard chucking his spells off a platform on his very own wagon of doom.

I was already planning to magnetise the acolyte and celestial wizard to make them interchangeable, I guess which way I field them will depend mostly on how competitive a game I am playing. Sadly there is only 1 buff in the lore of heavens and it is terrible. Light is much better, but the wagon just isn't as useful.

Oh so I guess the hydra sucks too? Or the ogre cannon? How about the Mortis Engine.

All armies have clearly better choices except for the Empire because well... the author did a shitty job of writing it. If fluff is what you are after then I guess you will accept any crap thing GW serves to you as long as it comes with pretty pictures.

[Wendersnaven]

Oh and dwarves are better in the shooting phase than Empire! Hurray!

We always have been friend. We always have been.  <Hands over some Bugmans  >

And Cruddance took the Dawi fluff a little too seriously; the word for humans is Umgi which roughly translated means shoddy.  There wasn't any call for him to do that and I feel your pain.

I missed the part where the Stank in no longer unbreakable  but still think it's better than what we had before.
Doesn't the Waltar give a latent buff to all units around it in the form of a ward save?  This would extend to the AL, but perhaps only for CC.  Are you guys sure he doesn't share the save?

[dalezzz]

@spiney i think maybe the reason (other than fluff) the hurricanum is the best of the wizard wagons and celestial is because its the worst lore.

Its a stealth nerf if you like ive never seen anyone complain about celestial/gold/bright/amber magic and ive never seen anyone say they like celestial , just GWs way of getting us to use a underused lore i spose.

[Justnorth]

My disappointment is that the new list looks geared toward pushing Empire players to buy the expensive big ugly plastic carts because they come festooned with special abilities that are made more attractive because much of the existing army list has been nerfed a little bit. In order to drag the 'power' back into the list the new large plastic carts are the best option... is it cynical to think this was a design feature motivated by the marketing and sales team? 

[Spiney]

Talben21 the Empire will still have go-to units, they just won't be the same ones they were last time around. The war altar is still a viable choice, it's just not über broken like it was last time, if you want the high power unit of this edition you'll have to go out and buy a wizard cart or demi-gryph unit or griffon kit, I'm afraid that's how these army updates work.

@spiney i think maybe the reason (other than fluff) the hurricanum is the best of the wizard wagons and celestial is because its the worst lore.

Its a stealth nerf if you like ive never seen anyone complain about celestial/gold/bright/amber magic and ive never seen anyone say they like celestial , just GWs way of getting us to use a underused lore i spose.

Hmmm, I don't really buy that, there is nothing to stop me using the hurricanum as a rare choice and bringing a shadow wizard for example. Actually I was using a metal wizard lord last edition and getting very good results from it, combining enchanted blades and the hurricanum will let my greatswords hit on a 2+ against most things, now that's what I call buff stacking.

[theforgefather]

I DON'T WANT MY STEAM TANK TO BE A STEAMING PILE OF HOT METAL SCRAPS BY THE END OF THE GAME!!
 

[Rommel44]

@spiney i think maybe the reason (other than fluff) the hurricanum is the best of the wizard wagons and celestial is because its the worst lore.

Its a stealth nerf if you like ive never seen anyone complain about celestial/gold/bright/amber magic and ive never seen anyone say they like celestial , just GWs way of getting us to use a underused lore i spose.

To be honest, I disagree that the Lore of Heavens is the worst Lore. Granted the Lore attribute isnt that great, but I have had good success with the Comet Spell, because it causes your opponent to change his movement or risk getting hit with it (Have had a S10 Comet hit a Ogre Bull horde and watch it go poof ). Every Lore can be good, just depends on what you prefer.

[dalezzz]

well of course Celestial can be good , its got some nice unique spells , most people would however take a Grey, Light , Jade or Ameysthyst wizard
and we see plenty of love for Gold (expecially against WOC) Bright (flaming powa! maybe see a bit less from these lads now we have more access to flaming?)Amber (everyone loves wissians) but i dont think ive ever seen any lists with celestial wizards in them ... until just now

[warhammerlord_soth]

I DON'T WANT MY STEAM TANK TO BE A STEAMING PILE OF HOT METAL SCRAPS BY THE END OF THE GAME!!
 

Although that does make it ideal to barbeque over.

[Sanctus]

I'll have to make my judgement when I actually get the book and play it.
But currently I'm very skeptical over the new book. What appealed to me most about empire were the Hordes of Troops with Cannons firing away, however it seems our Horde's got a bit of a nerf. I am not a fan of relying on Heroes to make my units worthwhile, that's for Undead players who's army requires it.

Also I've probably got to buy and entirely new army to stay  reasonably competitive by the sounds of things. I loved my swordsmen to bits and had a couple Halberdiers, but now it seems I'm gonna have to not only buy the new £30 boxes, but also our obscenely priced state troops in their droves to get enough spearmen to form up infantry blocks. All I wanted was some tweaks to our old book, instead I got more than I wanted.

Time will tell at the end of the day, I guess I can't make snap decisions on the 1st day the books been out.

[jhig]

Oh and dwarves, Orgres and Orcs all are better in the shooting phase than Empire!

I don't know about Dwarfs and Ogres but Orcs are not better at shooting than Empire.

[Shadowlord]

You know, when someone claims something on the internet, it can or can not be true.

Ogres have a rock hard shooting but it is still not better, more mobile yes, but not better.

Dwarfs have always had a shooting similar to Empire and will have so again when their new book comes out.

[Talben21]

Talben21 the Empire will still have go-to units, they just won't be the same ones they were last time around. The war altar is still a viable choice, it's just not über broken like it was last time, if you want the high power unit of this edition you'll have to go out and buy a wizard cart or demi-gryph unit or griffon kit, I'm afraid that's how these army updates work.

@spiney i think maybe the reason (other than fluff) the hurricanum is the best of the wizard wagons and celestial is because its the worst lore.

Its a stealth nerf if you like ive never seen anyone complain about celestial/gold/bright/amber magic and ive never seen anyone say they like celestial , just GWs way of getting us to use a underused lore i spose.

Hmmm, I don't really buy that, there is nothing to stop me using the hurricanum as a rare choice and bringing a shadow wizard for example. Actually I was using a metal wizard lord last edition and getting very good results from it, combining enchanted blades and the hurricanum will let my greatswords hit on a 2+ against most things, now that's what I call buff stacking.

Really so Ogres didn't get a buff with their cannons and stomp rules? Vampire counts didnt get better units. About the only way they got hurt was with ghouls.

Bottom line...

1. Detachments are meh at best.
2. Stuff got worse across the board
3. It goes worse AND costs more

[Smithy]

my biggest disapointment is our magic item sections got WAcked.. no Dragon slayer no swords of justice.. we went from having 3 pages to 1.. WTF!

[Fandir Nightshade]

LIke all other 8th edition books...compared to Orcs we have a fantastic selection of great items.

[Slavik]

True that, I will still miss casket  sigh...

[Shadowlord]

LIke all other 8th edition books...compared to Orcs we have a fantastic selection of great items.

Not just Orcs...