home

Author Topic: Imperial Guard!  (Read 54032 times)

Offline PhillyT

  • The Old Ones
  • Posts: 18778
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Imperial Guard!
« Reply #850 on: May 14, 2014, 01:50:38 AM »
Can you deploy your aegis line outside your deployment zone?

At that point, a blob squad is pushing what, 300 points?  40 men at 200, plus 1 priest and 40 points in power weapons? 

You would need to first roll a 4+ cover, then not have it dispelled.

Orks have a 5+ cover from the big mek.  I agree that the blobs work great to move up within rapid fire range and just rain in death, daring the enemy to charge them, but the idea of marching them across the board when they are empty of assault weapons or additional handweapons seems pretty unlikely.  For the same price two ork squads can assault them and waste the unit.  The first hits, locks it down, the second charges and mauls it next turn. 

That being said, if you wanted to, the only other thing in the game that can beat the thing are other horde CC units.  Marines and chaos marines will never be able to weather the volume of attacks and those power weapons.  Eldar can never get anywhere near them either. 

The real issue the unit faces is that it is likely to be trapped in CC challenges forever.  Any decent CC character will challenge every round, freezing the unit for the game.  Provided it is fearless, it will be an eternity as it grinds away sergeants for the rest of the game.

But I may have overstated the level of potential for the unit.  You are right, against anything but other fearless hordes, it is going to grind its way through.
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Sig

  • Posts: 4683
Re: Imperial Guard!
« Reply #851 on: May 14, 2014, 02:27:32 AM »
You can deploy it outside your zone yeah. Just has to be table half. I didn't know either until it happened to me in a tourney.

About 300 points yeah, but what a destructive (scoring) unit.

Rolling the spell is the hard bit I agree, though you have potentially 3 lv2 psykers which you would take anyway. At least 3 lv1. You can't currently dispel the blessing, and it grants an invuln save which is enormous. Much better than cover. Wyverns, for example, will tear up any hordes relying on cover, and are conveniently in the same army :P

It certainly has counters, but challenging isn't one of them - you simply refuse the challenge. The Ork one-two combo is much more likely, but they'd need to be big units or the power axes would tear them apart with all the rerolls. I think as always massed small arms is the counter, high save shooting units in cover systematically firing then retreating, and trying to knock out the priests with barrage sniping. Knock out the priest(s) and the unit is in major trouble!

The other main weakness is you're probably going to have very poor scoring outside the unit so can only threaten 2-3 objectives.

Offline PhillyT

  • The Old Ones
  • Posts: 18778
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Imperial Guard!
« Reply #852 on: May 14, 2014, 02:35:46 AM »
True about dropping the challenge.

But you if you are making a concerted effort, and you were crazy, you could field several of those units, like four at 1500.
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Sig

  • Posts: 4683
Re: Imperial Guard!
« Reply #853 on: May 14, 2014, 03:08:54 AM »
Yeah thats certainly true. I'd say your point about enemy hordes would be a pretty big deal though at that point. Also waiting for your movement phase would make me want to punch you in the face.

Would totally smash most marine lists though.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

  • Posts: 10157
Re: Imperial Guard!
« Reply #854 on: May 14, 2014, 04:25:33 AM »
Well I did advance with my blob towards finlay behind some conscripts...but it really didn´t feel like moving.

Offline PhillyT

  • The Old Ones
  • Posts: 18778
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Imperial Guard!
« Reply #855 on: May 14, 2014, 11:09:19 AM »
LAst game everything in my "gunline" ended up at least a foot from where it deployed, with a couple units 4 - 5 feet from where they started. 

But yeah, totally a gun line.

 :-P
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Finlay

  • Posts: 18635
  • C'mon Son
Re: Imperial Guard!
« Reply #856 on: May 15, 2014, 11:28:31 AM »
I like how moving a foot, aka one movement phase, constitutes an active moment game from the philster’s gunline!
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline PhillyT

  • The Old Ones
  • Posts: 18778
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Imperial Guard!
« Reply #857 on: May 15, 2014, 01:52:22 PM »
My russes move all but one turn.  That also constitutes two turns of full movement since they only go 6" anyway.  But yeah, probably should just motor the basilisks around for no reason other than to appease whiners.

If you can't figure out how to play against a shooting army, it is probably best to blame the play style.
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Finlay

  • Posts: 18635
  • C'mon Son
Re: Imperial Guard!
« Reply #858 on: May 15, 2014, 02:21:03 PM »
You seem to be continually omitting in all this talk that my aversion to the BORINGNESS of gunlines has nothing to do with their power level.

Let me remind you, again, that I do actually have an IG army. And choose not to use it because gunlines are boring to play WITH and against.
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline PhillyT

  • The Old Ones
  • Posts: 18778
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Imperial Guard!
« Reply #859 on: May 15, 2014, 02:34:35 PM »
So really, any artillery or tanks are essentially judged by you as boring?  Driving back and forth changes it from being a gun line?  How many assaults or moves are necessary before Finley decides you ate no longer a boring player?
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Finlay

  • Posts: 18635
  • C'mon Son
Re: Imperial Guard!
« Reply #860 on: May 15, 2014, 02:38:19 PM »
Just play your orks again, then I’ll forgive your trespasses.





Despite my trolling philster, this isn’t a personal attack on you, or anyone else who plays IG. I just personally find gunlines boring. It’s ok if you don’t.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 02:59:54 PM by Finlay »
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline PhillyT

  • The Old Ones
  • Posts: 18778
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Imperial Guard!
« Reply #861 on: May 15, 2014, 03:08:58 PM »
The thing is, I don't know what constitutes a gunline to you.

Generally, an army that never moves the entire game and just shoots is what I term a gunline.  Gunlines are terribly inconsistent and often used by poor or new players primarily because they don't understand how things work and figure shooting alone will be fine.  The guy I bought this AM army from would just deploy and shoot all game, not even really responding when his lines broke.

That is where I am getting at.  You seem to have an extremely broad view of what a gunline is, which is why I asked you what it takes for something NOT to be a gunline.  How many assaults?  How much movement?  There are of course several units that have no purpose in moving by their very design, basilisks being one of them.  Even Leman russes only move to get into a firing position, and their Heavy status makes it hard to get them out of the way when lines break down anyway.

I am a forgiving player and don't ever judge anyone for their choice of army.  If that is what they want, more power to them.  In many cases, people are limited by the models they have so they are forced to play what they own.  I have the luxury of 18,000 points in painted models over four armies (even after selling 8000 points in two others) so I can play almost any style I want (other than an infantry heavy AM army).  But many people I have played don't have that luxury.
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Finlay

  • Posts: 18635
  • C'mon Son
Re: Imperial Guard!
« Reply #862 on: May 15, 2014, 03:23:30 PM »
You’re right in that defining it is tricky, of course.
I’d go for “if the majority of the models in your army will be not moving for most of the game, in a line of guns, then it’s a gunline”. Maybe add a clause about minimal assault units.
You don’t get to avoid gunline status just because you also stuck two vendettas in the army list, or a knight who’s moving 12 inches a turn, for example!
I do get that the design of the book pushes you into a gunline (although you can do non gunline with it). You’re right you shouldn’t be moving your basilisks. But I’ve never meant to argue that it isn’t “legit”, or indeed what IG are meant to do. Just that I find it boring. That’s why it was a pointless discussion all along! I find it boring, you don’t. Which is fine.
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline PhillyT

  • The Old Ones
  • Posts: 18778
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Imperial Guard!
« Reply #863 on: May 15, 2014, 03:39:52 PM »
It ended up going beyond that in a similar fashion to the old gunline arguments in Fantasy.  Tucked into the anti-gunline arguments is the largely unspoken accusation of inferiority towards those who play the style (old cannon lists are a good example of that and maybe still are). 

I don't really get the boring piece personally.  I never had an issue with playing people who used gunlines unless they still sat and did nothing as I caved in their lines.  In those cases, I questioned whether I had even played a person or if I had just fought a dice rolling robot.  But if a person running a gunline actively counters moves to break through, I see that as a perfectly effective way to run an army.  As long as they are making tactical decisions in terms of shooting and movement, I don't think that impacts my feeling of fun compared to an assault heavy army.  My sense of fun comes from trying to overcome an opponent who is trying to beat me.  Some games are better than others, but unless it is a complete landslide, I rarely feel bored.
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Darknight

  • Pure of Heart
  • Posts: 7547
  • Dipped in Magic, Clothed in Science
Re: Imperial Guard!
« Reply #864 on: May 15, 2014, 03:49:08 PM »
In those cases, I questioned whether I had even played a person or if I had just fought a dice rolling robot.

Did they ask you to explain love to them? Because if they did, you were playing a Warhammer player.
Completed Projects | History of Ophelia VII

Quote from: PhillyT
Everyone finds their balance between satisfaction and obsession.

Offline PhillyT

  • The Old Ones
  • Posts: 18778
  • Watching... always watching...
    • https://www.facebook.com/philip.estabrook.1
Re: Imperial Guard!
« Reply #865 on: May 15, 2014, 04:07:10 PM »
Lol

 :::cheers:::
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.