Author Topic: Growing disillusioned with Empire (Read 23223 times)

Perforated · « **on:** May 19, 2014, 12:19:32 PM »

Lately I've been facing some real problems with motivating myself regarding the Empire army. Mostly due to the fact that I feel that our current book, while relatively strong is more or less pants.

There is little, if no variation in the army and when it comes down to it pretty much only two out of nine infantry choices (Halbs and archers) are worth fielding (mostly due to S4 being to good to pass up and the rest being overcosted/lacklustre). While the cavalry is really solid I don't want to field and order of the holy cannonball consisting mostly of demigryphs, cannons and steam tanks.

The only warmachines worth taking are cannons and helblasters and the pistoliers are overcosted for what they actually bring to the table.

In the character department the Empire General is more or less worthless when compared to his peers. The WH is a gimmick and the engineer is really only worth it on a helblaster.

I don't know what to do any more. Please prove me wrong or just help me rekindle my interest in the Empire I love.

sammay23 · « **Reply #1 on:** May 19, 2014, 12:29:11 PM »

Well, I'm quite biased, but I am still really enjoying playing a MSU cav list after nearly two years. No cannon. No hellblasters. One Steam Tank. I take 3x6 vanilla knights, 1x6 IC knights, 1x6 Reiksguard, 3x3 Demigryphs, a Lvl 4, and fill the rest in with Captasi. It can be a frustrating list to learn, initially, but you've got a lot of gaming under your belt, so the learning curve should be pretty steep. I still think it's a really fun list, because it makes the movement phase so much more interesting. I think it adds more of a strategic element to the game, when you have lots of quick units you can move quite far during a game. Allows for feints and draws, and against many less mobile armies, it really shines.

LegionsofOdin · « **Reply #2 on:** May 19, 2014, 12:58:40 PM »

I have also used an all cavalry list but I used pistoliers and I liked them so much I run them in all my competitive lists. My current army I am going to be using the end of the month for a 100 man tournament has 3 units of them.
Also mathematically all the infantry are about on par. I also use a 20 man detachment of crossbows that usually works quite well. Honestly the only choices I do not like are militia, outriders, mortars, and rockets. Heck I don't use cannons any more either. Steam tank comes with a free cannon. Oh I don't use great swords either unless in fluffy fun games usually.

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Perforated · « **Reply #3 on:** May 19, 2014, 01:12:50 PM »

Thanks for the replies. Still I'm in no way fond of just maxing out on knights, DGs and Stanks. I like the infantry part and usually want them to provide the core of the army. I am in no way a stranger to using cavalry as support elements though.

As for all the infantry being on par, I'm not looking for a mathematical argument but I feel that compared to the halbs S4 the rest just ain't worth it. Spears are just one point cheaper which mean they are overcosted. Swordsmen are one point more expensive and a 5+ AS doesn't really cut it on 7pt S3 humans. And once in combat they gain no benefit from the Luminark which I like to use.

Free company are a joke at 6pts per model and so are crossbowmen and handgunners at 9pts. GS are to expensive at 11 and don't get me started on flagellants.

I'm in no sense of the word a WAAC player but I don't like to neuter myself either. I love most of the empire troops and would really like to use a greater variety of them. But when it comes down to the bottom line I don't feel that they are worth the effort to buy, paint and play.

Newt · « **Reply #4 on:** May 19, 2014, 01:42:51 PM »

Perforated, I have felt the same way. I struggle to show up with my Empire, if it werent for this campaign, they would have been shelved. I struggle to find answers for most enemy armies, it requires pure luck and horrible mistakes from my enemy to pull off a tie. I have tried various builds. I enjoy the MSU but it lacks punch. I will probably shelve them after this campaign, as I am tired of getting tabled

My biggest problem has been dealing with big groups, magic is horribly unreliable, and mortars are pointless. So when someone drops a horde of 50, I can try to dodge it or chaff it, but its hard to pull off any sort of victory. With the mortar nerf, I feel like ive lost the ability to deal with hordes, the helblaster usually blows up by turn 2.

In addition, steam tank usually dies by turn 2, rarely sees combat

sammay23 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 19, 2014, 01:51:07 PM »

I have 150 Halberds, 50 Swordsmen, 50 Greatswords and 40 Flagellants waiting for the day I get bored with the cav MSU, but it hasn't happened yet. Believe me, I love a good infantry list, and have a lot of experience with them, but they just aren't working well in the current competitive arenas I play in. I enjoy feeling competitive, so the fast, MSU cav list keeps me happy.

So, I hear you about loving infantry. Me too. Just not right now.

Finlay · « **Reply #6 on:** May 19, 2014, 02:03:20 PM »

yup, the book sucks and the models are crap.

Just collect a different army, wait for a new book.

emcdunna · « **Reply #7 on:** May 19, 2014, 02:19:09 PM »

You can still win with infantry. Its not like we have tons of choices but its still possible.

Go read Holy Hand Grenade's Griffin formation tactica.

Basically you do this:

50 halberds with 2 units of 20 swordsmen as detatchments. You put an Arch lector (general), BSB, and a Witch Hunter in your halberds. This block gives you 90 men that are basically unbreakable with LD9, rerolls, and the Hold the Line rule. You cast battle prayers which buff 90 men at once yet magic missiles and nuke spells can only target at most half of them at a time. Then the witch hunter gives you Magic Resist 2 which means at least a 5+ ward save to dwellers or stuff like that.

Its expensive but if you can get the right buff spells cast on this formation at the right moment then they will destroy the enemy. we may have overcosted infantry but the reason it is is because we have the absolute best possible choice of support. We have all the artillery enemies fear, we have wizards that can access any lore we want, warrior priests to make our men amazing in close combat, and master engineers to buff our war machines.

Then you deploy 10 archers with 2 detatchments of 5 archers out front of your formation, these men screen the enemy (giving you time to charge yourself) and house your wizard.

Then you spend the rest of your points on Reiksguard, some of the most amazing knights there are (with stubborn, they are practically unbreakable) and demigryphs which cost 15 points less than they should.

The empire is still great. Maybe not as diverse as it was in 7th but in no way do you have to field just MSU armies full of cavalry.

Besides, remember that when we win.... we won with humans!! against all the scary shit in warhammer, the fricken chaos gods and high elf monsters, we brought humans with swords and cannons and we won. Now thats something to be proud of!

Perforated · « **Reply #8 on:** May 19, 2014, 03:28:58 PM »

Quote from: emcdunna on May 19, 2014, 02:19:09 PM

...

Thanks for the reply. My problem isn't with not understanding the army and not winning. I've been playing the Empire for the better part of 15 years and I win more games than I lose.

As it stands the army just feels utterly one-dimensional and centered completely around the new toys. More than half the choices are sub par at best and the rest are by my preferences rather boring (knight/stank/DG/cannon MSU).

I've more or less tried what you are describing but that's still just a flavour of spam hatred/prayers and halberdiers.

emcdunna · « **Reply #9 on:** May 19, 2014, 04:11:46 PM »

I know what you are saying.

GW changed stuff in 8th so that people would buy new models. Coming out with new state troops doesnt do them good because people alreay have hundreds of them and love the guys. What they do instead is come up with a unit like demigryphs and everyone buys a dozen of them, which makes them tons of money. They kind of have to be shrewd like that to still make money and I find that okay as long as GW doesnt you know, close down. I know it sort of sucks.

I think 8th edition rules are good but our army book got hit hard with the "new toy" philosophy. They know that empire players are strategic and will pay $$$ for undercosted and unique bad ass units.

Its not super fair and I would much rather have our army be playable in such a way that didnt force you to take toys or lose but thats kind of what many armies are facing nowadays.

I think they should go ahead and make new units but they shouldnt nerf old ones as much as they have. You can still take spearmen and swordsmen, no problem, there are units that are worse off tactically (cough cough flaggellants, pistoliers, mortars, helstorm... etc cough)

Fandir Nightshade · « **Reply #10 on:** May 19, 2014, 04:18:21 PM »

Which really isn t true. All knights has been good 6th 7th aaaaand 8th Empire is average if you go infantry and can go toe to toe with most other armies especially in a friendly environment. In the top field against the top armies you better saddle up the demigryphs and fire up the steam tank.

I agree that the empire book could and should be better but it isn t a sell the new shiny syndrome / conspiracy (griffon is one of the most expensive and most sucky kits goldswords are rather new too) ...i think they dont understand their own rules too well.

emcdunna · « **Reply #11 on:** May 19, 2014, 04:20:39 PM »

Itd be nice if the griffin with general on top was better.

GW doesnt understand their rules? or the models dont understand? haha

Talben21 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 19, 2014, 04:51:46 PM »

Two big blocks of halberdiers with a Hurricanum between them is a fun and infantry heavy way to play. I also take a steam tank as they are just too damn good.

Perforated · « **Reply #13 on:** May 19, 2014, 04:53:41 PM »

Yeah, I know... been there, done that...

It would seem I have to look for a new army and/or a new game to distract myself for a while.

Fidelis von Sigmaringen · « **Reply #14 on:** May 19, 2014, 04:57:38 PM »

Burn the heretic!

Perforated · « **Reply #15 on:** May 19, 2014, 05:03:45 PM »

Oh, I'll never abandon the Empire

Padre · « **Reply #16 on:** May 19, 2014, 05:07:03 PM »

Try fluff to spice your gaming life up!

I occasionally play a 'pirate' empire army (pirate figs, no horse, no armour), or an 'arabyan' empire army (various counts as), or I use various fan made lists like the ones adapted for my Tilean game. I suppose it depends on who, what, how and why your playing Warhammer.

emcdunna · « **Reply #17 on:** May 19, 2014, 05:07:57 PM »

I play 3 armies. Its fun! Empire I think is the most rewarding army to play. Tactical genius, diversity... we just bring a combined arms force that has an answer to everything. It takes work to make our army good against the types of opponents that we have but I find it fulfilling to try.

Maybe you should try a new army, good to try others

Mortim · « **Reply #18 on:** May 19, 2014, 05:30:48 PM »

The meta is changing atm.

From spam 1+ saves to mass dark riders/warlocks + pegasus masters kind of list. Fast lists with lots of shooting and relatively weak armor. Wood elves will add to fast lists with mass shooting. In fact all Elves are overrepresented in tourneys atm: ASF is just too good a rule in tourneys where you need averages instead of strings of bad luck.

I brought 30 handgunners+crossbowmen (3x10) in last tourney and I can say they were game changing in all my games just because of this change of meta atm. Fast cav units dont like handgunners and crossbowmen at all!

Even small halberdier units were great as area denial to fast cav. Just measure 18" from those pesky Fast cav units and move up or backwards your halberdiers so the fast cav cant get past your charge arcs. Simple, and gives your handgunners/crossbowmen plenty of time to erradicate the fast cavs.

Halberdiers are bad vs 1+ anyway but as small units (10-15) to protect your arty or crossbowmen fro fast cav they are great and cheap.

I am trying to adapt to the changes I see in the meta.. and actualy it looks brighter now than before with mostly 1+ spam!

emcdunna · « **Reply #19 on:** May 19, 2014, 05:37:04 PM »

especially dark elves with their fast cav, flyers and stuff. If dark elves get the first turn.... holy cow! They literally vanguard and march till they are 6 " from your helblaster, shoot some arrows and you lose all your crew before you even fire. Like wtf.

I just think the armies start WAY TOO CLOSE TOGETHER. Especially with vanguard and scouts and stuff like that. I think they should change the average board size to be 5 foot by 7 foot, giving you another 12" between you and the enemy deployment. That would be game changing, no more flyer and fast cav utterly wrecking you on the first turn without mercy. I mean they can still be good but not like rush the war machines and stuff.

Finlay · « **Reply #20 on:** May 19, 2014, 05:46:57 PM »

you're literally the only person ever I've seen want the armies to start further apart.

you know you don't HAVE to deploy at the front of your deployment zone?

emcdunna · « **Reply #21 on:** May 19, 2014, 05:55:07 PM »

really? I mean go ahead and play 8 turns instead of 6 or whatever but I think theres some dangerous stuff that can happen just because of how close the battle starts.

Krokz · « **Reply #22 on:** May 19, 2014, 05:57:20 PM »

Agree about the meta. When Empire came out there was only a few 8th editions books. Now almost all are in 8th. Empire looks boring and slow now, and it is. Internal balance is non existent, fluff choices totally suck. If you want to focus Empire in one direction (be it shooting, fast units, magic, melee blocks) you realize there are armies out there that can do it better. All we are left with is jack of all trades play style which gets boring sooner or later.
New book next year AFAIK.

Fandir Nightshade · « **Reply #23 on:** May 19, 2014, 06:17:19 PM »

If you want to block vanguard...use scouts. Huntsmen really aren´t THAT expensive.

commandant · « **Reply #24 on:** May 19, 2014, 07:03:38 PM »

Quote from: Krokz on May 19, 2014, 05:57:20 PM

If you want to focus Empire in one direction (be it shooting, fast units, magic, melee blocks) you realize there are armies out there that can do it better. All we are left with is jack of all trades play style which gets boring sooner or later.

Could somebody point out when this was not true. I played in 6th when this was true and in 7th when this was true and now in 8th when it is true. The Empire has never been about focusing on one direction. It has always been about combining different things to win.

I really think one of the reasons that people are complaining about the Empire a lot is because it is a much more subtle army and people are not really engaging with its strengths [its ability to be active in all phases, its ability to dominate the flow of the game, the ease with which its troops can be improved etc.]

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Author Topic: Growing disillusioned with Empire (Read 23223 times)