Topic: Killing Death Stars

[Vietnow]

Hey guys,

I recently played two games against my buddies, and had a lot of difficulty with their main units.  I'm very much not a fan of the deathstar philosophy, but it is both common and viable in 8th edition.  One was a Tzeentch warrior block with 30ish warriors, a 3+ ward L4 of metal.  The other was 35ish temple guard with a slaan, also metal.  If you're wondering why they're metal, we play swedish comp, and metal has no negative comp score.  They also knew I was playing empire........ jerks.

In 2800pt games, these units had around 950 points in them, between troops and characters.  More info;

-WoC player had CoC on his BSB with the one use 4+ ward, making it a one use 3+ ward, and a 5+ parry thereafter.  The unit has a 5+ parry save and a 3+ armor save.  Rest of the army was 4 crushers, 4  d ogres, 5 gw ogres, and 6 nurgle knights.  Giving him S5/6 on everythingn except the warriors block, and his 7 man fast cav unit with his scroll caddy.

-Temple guard are unbreakable with the slaan, and chakax, the special character who excels in challenges, and the frenzy banner.  The rest of his army was 6or so units of skinks, 2 of which were skirmishers, 20 saurus, and 3-4 razor/salamanders, (don't remember how many of each) 2 heroes on cold ones with GW's. 1 lord on a cold one with a GW.  One hero has a 1+ rerollable as.  The other has a 1+/4++.  The lord has 1+/4++ and glittering scales.  All of them are S7.

- WoC game, I removed every unit except his warriors, his L2, and the fast cav.  That is 4 crushers, 4 drogers, 5 ogres, 6 knights... all wiped out.
He still had 1250 points on the board.  I chaff'd him up with tiny archer units, a solid bait and flee with pistoliers, and I gave my combats the best chances to win.  I still got spanked in combat, it's WoC, what do you expect.  But I did enough damage to finish off most of his units by turn 6.

-Lm I wiped the lord cowboy, and one hero, a lot of skinks, and several of the artillery lizards.  He had over 1400 points left on the board.  The heroes wreck knights and the steam tank.  Artillery will only get me so far against those cowboys.  Their ward saves (or not knowing which will have the ward save) their armor, and their small footprint make them difficult to hit with cannons. (I hit the right cowboy, with the rerollabe as, and got 1 wound, next turn misfire killed the cannon)  I attempted a more defensive/shooty list, I managed to vaporize certain things, but then got wrecked by the cowboys.

Empire has nothing to fight those temple guard, except an excellent combo charge, and they are still unbreakable.  They hit at S5 and will eventually kill demi's.  If any infantry unit is in their front, my flank charges will be fleeing due to the combat resolution generated by killing infantry.

To be fair, I lost my bsb to final trans vs WoC, and my AL general in the same manner vs LM.  Both of these were early on, both were IF'd.  Bad luck, I know.

To my question........ how do I get these units off the board???   Should I just ignore them forever, and focus on everything else?  Should I attempt a unit killer spell build? 

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

The best answer, in my opinion, to Death Stars is magic - spells like Dwellers, Final Transmutation etc. (chosen in function of the enemy).

[Ondjage]

Avoid them for the entire game if you must. They are both movement 4 blocks that are hard to manouvre. The slann/tg combo is insanely weak to irresistible force, and will eventually kill itself if you are a bit lucky. Also the dwellers below as fidelis proposed is absolutely brutal. The slann is str 3!

[Vietnow]

My main issue with Life magic is the 12" range on Dwellers.  Empire doesn't have access to fast cav characters, like Elves in fast cav units.  Our wizards also lack protection if flying solo on a pegasus.    Both of these units are combat monsters.  If my wizard is within 12" of them, I'm going to be in combat his next turn.

Final trans can be up to 36" range.  I think metal synergies well with the empire army book also.  This is likely my best option, esp given metal has no negative comp scoring, while life does.  This may also be an excuse to run greatswords, if i have access to glittering robes.   Maybe.

Curse of A, is the same 1/3 as final trans for troops, but will only put a wound on characters, not outright kill them 1/6 of the time.  While I think beasts is very viable for empire, it just never seems to work out for me.  It is very, very subjective to your winds roll the turn you NEED buffs.  Also, with no access to a unit killer, like final trans, dwellers, etc, it is very hard to force a scroll early.  So the turn you AOE savage beast onto 4-5 characters, it gets scrolled, then your wyssyn's is eaten by 6 dispel dice.

[Vietnow]

I've decided playing with swedish comp, taking Life magic is worth the hit, and is superior to Metal.

My reasoning is;

Metal has 1 solid buff spell, enchanted blades.  It has one rather weak hex, trans of lead, and another debuff in plague of rust.   

It has 1 unit killer, final trans, and 2 anti armor spells, sig and hounds.

My issue lies with there being only 1 MUST DISPEL spell available at any point in the game.  Before combat, final trans MUST BE stopped, or bad things can happen.  In combat, only blades will be a real threat.

Glittering robes is ok.... but only greatswords and swordsmen will truly benefit from this.  It is best used on medium armored units.  Sure it helps but it is very underwhelming.  We also already have access to +1 to hit from the celestial.

With life,  Dwellers is a must dispel but we also have access to throne for miscast protection, and to force dispels.  There are several spells in the lore of Life which will force a dispel.  Throne, flesh, regrowth, even the sig, (which is similar to the WP 5+ ward prayer.)

Dwellers forcing a dispel also opens up our bound spells and prayers.

[LGH]

Steam Tank 

[Zygmund]

Steam Tank 

He already has one, and the SweComp severely discourages taking another.

Or do you mean a tactic which utilises the STank better than he is doing now?

-Z