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Author Topic: Best Lore(s) vs. Skaven or any other tips  (Read 3478 times)

Offline Gigataur

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Best Lore(s) vs. Skaven or any other tips
« on: June 02, 2015, 06:29:04 PM »
First off greetings!  :biggriin: This is my first time posting on these forums so hopefully I am in the right area. I also have only been playing Warhammer for about a month maybe less. I played a 1500 pt. game against my friend who plays Skaven and although it was a close game (200 pt difference) There was something I was wondering from all you veterans out there.. :closed-eyes:

What Lores would you recommend against a Skaven army?

Also for those interested in how the game went with the following list from what i can recall he had...

200 Slaves (may be pushing that number)
30 Stormvermin (may be incorrect)
20 Rat ogres approximately
1 Hellpit Abom
1 Warp Cannon
1 Bell with a Grey Seer on Top

My army consisted of..

L4 Wizard of Life
Talisman of Preservation
Dispel Scroll

L2 Wizard of Death
Opal Amulet

30 Halberds full command w/ 2 Detachments of 5 Archers with a Captain of the Empire+BSB w/ Eternal Flame
5 Inner Circle Knights Full Command
4 Demigryph Knights w/ Musician and SB
1 Stank
1 Great Cannon

Quick rundown of the game..
movement+deployment: went well except my placement of demigryphs basically made it so they were not involved in combat for the first 2 turns or so which hurt me quite a bit. I placed them far too off from my main forces and although they (as well as my IC knights) flanked and decimated 2 units of slaves them showing up late kinda sucked. Was able to make it so i could funnel their rats and only have to deal with 1 group at a time really.

Magic: This was definitely the worst phase. I only got 2 magic spells which were throne of vines and regrowth as well as 0 dispels off the entire game and failed on all 3 of my dwellers. Also my opponent got THREE Dreaded 13th's off which hurt A LOT and caused my wizards, detachments and halberds to eventually flee off the board starting turn 3/4. He also got some hex spells permanently lowering my demigryph's toughness to 2 as well as my IC knights. Failed rolls to the max.

Shooting: Got rid of his Warp Cannon by turn 2 and he whiffed his damage. Shooting was swell until i rolled three 1's back-to-back from my great cannon on attempts on his Bell and HPA.

Combat: Demigryphs did great when they finally engaged. His Dreaded 13th spells made it so I couldn't really engage with my halberds. IC Knights Did great as well and eventually RIP'd to the ogres. never got to kill his Grey seer. Stank did well with a 4 wounds impact and tied up the HPA even with all the ridiculous insta-wounds skills the HPA has.


Any tips on how to play better vs. Skaven? After Googling I found some recommend Death/Heavens or Fire for Lores and that I need to prioritize the leaders aka the Grey Seer. I would appreciate any input!




 

Offline CarolineWellwater

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Re: Best Lore(s) vs. Skaven or any other tips
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2015, 12:08:04 AM »
(( Howdy Gigataur,

I suppose that means you're bigger than a "Taur" and a "Mega-Taur"... sorry, lame Disgaea reference in there.

Anyway, just some quick thoughts.

1) Skaven have a lot of screwy rules and erratas... so... they can be very difficult to play against and plan against.

1-A) Compounding this issue is that they can get easy-LD via their ranks... so... trying to rely on them having a Low LD isn't terribly reliable.

1-B) Not to mention that, if the Slaves break, they EXPLODE all over the place... basically giving the Skaven Player "Death Spasm" hits.

1-B-1) If you can, get the slaves to Panic / Blow-up away from your guys, so all the fleeing slaves will run over other Skaven units.

2) Currently, your army is around the 7 - 8 LD range.  Which... is not terribly reliable, without a BSB.  You might want to foregoe a full Demigryph, in order to free up some points for an el-cheapo BSB.  The ability to re-roll ALL LD rolls is huge.  You'll still need to pull some points from elsewhere too, though.

3) Death-lore is more of a character killer to me.  I'm... not impressed with it as a whole.  It doesn't tend to synergize well with the rest of the Empire armies.

3-A) You might be better served with a low-level Fire mage over Death.  Fireball is a fantastic spell, and the Flaming Sword of Ruin augment can really put a hurt on Skaven.  Burning Head, Piercing Bolts, and Flame Cage can really chew into the large, Skaven blocks.

3-B) You might be able to save a few points, and drop the Opal Amulet.  If your wizards are using the Archer escort-bodyguard, they shouldn't be terribly easy to target.  That'll free up additional points for a BSB.

3-B-1) I'd move the Dispell Scroll to your lower-level mage.  If your Higher-Level mage fails a dispel, he cannot attempt for the rest of the turn... and thus he can't use the Scroll.  Where-as, if he fails, your lower-level wizard can still try to dispel, or just use the scroll.

3-C) I'm also not terribly impressed with Life.  It does synergize with your List, via Lifebloom on the tank and demigryphs, but... without Throne of Vines, the rest of the spells cannot self-augment, and are on the weaker-side, for how much the cost to cast.

3-C-1) The Lores I tend to use, regardless of opponent, are Fire, Shadow, and Heavens... if you remember Magic The Gathering, I always did like me some Blue-Black... so... hence the Shadow and Heavens.  In Warhammer, I just love me some Fire.  Fire burns.  Fire cleanses.  Nothing says loving like some red-hot fire.  Um... anyway.

4) At lower-level points, you might be able to get away with non-Inner Circle knights.  The points you free up are almost enough to upsize the knights from 5 to 6.  You do lose some punch with the lower strength, but you do increase the volume of attacks you can bring to bear... which gives you the chance to cause more wounds.

5) Overall, Disruption destroys Skaven.  Disruption takes out Rank bonuses, and, thusly, should take out Rank-to-LD bonuses as well.   In order to get Disruption, you need to hit a Skaven flank / rear with a unit size of 10+

Anyway, just some quick thoughts. Unfortunately, I normally lose to Skaven... as their not-balanced rules just, eventually, overwhelm the Main Rule Book. At least, that's been the preponderance of my experience playing against them. ))

Offline Gigataur

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Re: Best Lore(s) vs. Skaven or any other tips
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2015, 04:55:47 AM »
First off thanks for the reply and tips! I expected as much that the Skaven are one of the more imbalanced factions out there also hearing HE and DE and some debate for WoC.

- I will definitely give fire  ::heretic:: a closer look and at least put it on my level 2 so I can for sure have the ability to fireball spam on that nasty HPA.

- The empire handbook on here really vouched for Life and Light but I should look at other literature and find out overall what players usually use at least if one was to make an all-comer list. Perhaps Life is more friendly for an all-comer list? or I can really stick with fire/heavens/shadow.

-The wounds multiplier was really nasty on Skaven and I think that was the most surprising part of fighting them.

-I wish I got Throne of Vines :/ I was shooting for it but never got it off unfortunately.

-I did have a captain BSB in my Halberds maybe i'm misreading point #2 :/.

-Loved the Magic the Gathering Reference and regarding my name it's from World of Warcraft hah! the "Taur" was from the Tauren race (For the Horde).

Again thank you very much for your input! Always open to more suggestions.

P.S. I played today and rolled 8 misfires FML.

Offline Jomppexx

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Re: Best Lore(s) vs. Skaven or any other tips
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 01:54:30 PM »
Well, I do see why Life gets all the praise. +T is never a bad thing, but the lore has some lackluster spells too.
Against Skaven you might want to try a level 4 death.
 Spirit Leech can hurt any character (their BSB has LD6, Warlord has 8, which is the highest). They also will not benefit from the ranks = bonus LD, as a single character can't have ranks and it must be taken on unmodified leadership.
1. Aspect of the Dread Knight can be good. Fear is decent against Skaven, due to their low LD, trying to terror push units around isn't bad either.

2&5. The Caress of Laniph and The Fate of Bjuna are great at killing their characters. Their highest S and T values are 4, but then again, I think you can deal enough damage with a good D6 roll on Spirit Leech.

3. Soulblight. Great against anything Skaven. S2 T2 Stormvermin? Yes please. Makes even halberdiers seem brutal in combat.

4. Doom and Darkness. Again fantastic against Skaven. Their army already has poor LD and relies on the generals base LD and strength in numbers or something to get extra LD per ranks. D&D the general (Grey seer with his LD of... wait for it... 7) goes down to 4. He will be forced to use this for his Slaves if he doesn't have a character in the unit and will only have LD7, if he has 3 ranks.

6. Purple sun. Actually not too great against Skaven. Pretty much everything has I4 or higher.
"Sigmar is like a barbaric, warrior Jesus, and only appeared to be a mortal man."
Highlights :
8/2014 : Grandmaster slew a Chaos Lord in a challenge

Offline Gigataur

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Re: Best Lore(s) vs. Skaven or any other tips
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2015, 05:50:50 PM »
Appreciate the input!

Regarding Life: Yeah the +T (up to +4) is very nice along with regrowth and dwellers below but the downside also with life seems to be that the best skills i really have to have high rolls to even get them off (besides flesh to stone).

Regarding Death: Perhaps this would be best suited only on a L4 to really get access to those spells. I think having this and fire could potentially be very destructive against Skaven.

Soulblight would definitely have been nice for sure especially since the stormvermin really held up my knights/demigryphs (i cant remember exactly)

I think Spirit Leech may honestly be my ticket and go to spell every magic phase by the looks of it.

Offline CarolineWellwater

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Re: Best Lore(s) vs. Skaven or any other tips
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2015, 01:01:23 AM »
(( Gigataur,

Sorry about the delay.  Some thoughts to your replies.

1) That's one of the reasons that I find Life to be... not amongst my preferred lores.  Without Throne of Vines, the spells are on the expensive side while being lackluster.  Your opponent will also know this, and will focus their dispell defense at keeping you from getting the Thrones.

1-A) While Light and Life are the "tournament" lores... here, where I play, the locals have a pretty standard SOP for "Turning out the Lights", and for "Trimming the Life-Tree".  So, I don't tend to use them much.  In contrast, Fire, Heavens and Shadow are underused lores where I am, and it makes for some unexpected suprizes in what the spells can do.

2) Sorry, I didn't see you having the BSB in the Halberds, since you pulled out your other special characters to list them separately.

2-A) I would say, though, that usually the BSB is equipped for defensive purposes.   Giving him a magic banner lowers his protections... but does increase his threat abilities.  If you're willing to accept the risk.

2-B) I would consider a Pistol for your BSB.  It's a cheap weapon, and gives you a reason to have a BS 5 character.

3) If you like Dwellers, you should take a look at the Lore of Beasts.  Curse of Anraheir is a Hex (over a Direct Damage), so you can cast it into melee, and don't need LOS to your target.  It also has 3x the range of Dwellers, and you can risk casting Curse of Anraheir with 2d6, and still have about a 70% chance to cast the spell.  Dwellers requires at least 3d6... more likely 4d6.

3-A) And that doesn't even mention the fact that it makes all terrain Dangerous, with failing on a 1-2.  That means anytime the cursed unit moves, it can lose up to 33% of itself... to include, multi-wound character models!  Curse of Anraheir  is a freaking amazing spell against horde blocks.

Anyway, just some thoughts. ))
 

Offline Jomppexx

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Re: Best Lore(s) vs. Skaven or any other tips
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2015, 06:58:02 AM »
1) That's one of the reasons that I find Life to be... not amongst my preferred lores.  Without Throne of Vines, the spells are on the expensive side while being lackluster.  Your opponent will also know this, and will focus their dispell defense at keeping you from getting the Thrones.
Sorry but this is wrong. If they stop Throne of Vines, so what? Now you can cast Flesh to stone, Regrowth, the weird regen spell all without worrying about dispell.
"Sigmar is like a barbaric, warrior Jesus, and only appeared to be a mortal man."
Highlights :
8/2014 : Grandmaster slew a Chaos Lord in a challenge

Offline CarolineWellwater

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Re: Best Lore(s) vs. Skaven or any other tips
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2015, 11:25:13 PM »
(( Jomppexx,

Quote
Sorry but this is wrong. If they stop Throne of Vines, so what? Now you can cast Flesh to stone, Regrowth, the weird regen spell all without worrying about dispell.

I still have to disagree with your statement. 

Without Throne of Vines, the spells of the Lore of Life are expensive to cast and lackluster in play.  Can you cast Flesh to Stone without Throne of Vines up?  Yes.  However, you're getting only a mediocre effect out of it.  Same goes for Regeneration, Regrowth, and the Tree-Fwap spell that Life has.  Throne of Vines empowers the vast majority of Life spells... often doubling the effectiveness of the next spell cast.

To me, Life has a critical flaw in that only two spells can self augment.  The rest of the Lore relies upon Throne of Vines going up first, in order to buff the effect of the next spell.  And that's one of the biggest reasons I don't care for the Lore.  If you stop Throne of Vines, you make the rest of the school of magic spells lukewarm, at best. ))

Offline blackcat

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Re: Best Lore(s) vs. Skaven or any other tips
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2015, 07:47:57 AM »
(( Jomppexx,

Quote
Sorry but this is wrong. If they stop Throne of Vines, so what? Now you can cast Flesh to stone, Regrowth, the weird regen spell all without worrying about dispell.

I still have to disagree with your statement. 

Without Throne of Vines, the spells of the Lore of Life are expensive to cast and lackluster in play.  Can you cast Flesh to Stone without Throne of Vines up?  Yes.  However, you're getting only a mediocre effect out of it.  Same goes for Regeneration, Regrowth, and the Tree-Fwap spell that Life has.  Throne of Vines empowers the vast majority of Life spells... often doubling the effectiveness of the next spell cast.

To me, Life has a critical flaw in that only two spells can self augment.  The rest of the Lore relies upon Throne of Vines going up first, in order to buff the effect of the next spell.  And that's one of the biggest reasons I don't care for the Lore.  If you stop Throne of Vines, you make the rest of the school of magic spells lukewarm, at best. ))

I dont know, there is still something to be said for making our toughness 3 troops suddenly toughness 5. Yes its not as awesome as toughness 7 but to be honest it'll work well enough. The biggest reason I like throne of vines is not for the boosts to the spells (although yes thats awesome) but its the ignore a miscast on a 2+ that I like the most.

Offline Jomppexx

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Re: Best Lore(s) vs. Skaven or any other tips
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2015, 07:53:31 AM »
Against most STRONG combat enemies T5 is pretty good. Take for example Ogres, with S4 they will struggle to wound T5 troops.
Even Chaos Warriors with halberds will be made a lot less effective. T7 would make both of these enemies wound on 6's only, but getting wounded on 4+/5+ is decent enough.
"Sigmar is like a barbaric, warrior Jesus, and only appeared to be a mortal man."
Highlights :
8/2014 : Grandmaster slew a Chaos Lord in a challenge