Topic: What Do We Do Moving Forward?

[Darknight]

So, the images of Age of Sigmar are released, and (at the very least) the aesthetic is very different. There is a lot to suggest that this IS the "new Empire" and that our Empire of codpieces and puff and slash is no more. 8th edition and the Empire that has existed for many years and through many editions isn't going to be supported.

Grutch (good man!) says he will keep the website open for as long as people are interested.

I think we need to have a discussion - mods and owners and people all - and decide how we are going to move forward with the forum. By this I mean; what sort of boards and other things do we need on the site to ensure participation continues?

Here are my suggestions;

1) First and foremost, the forum remains "Warhammer Empire". That is, the primary focus of the site is the game Warhammer (as in, Classichammer) and the Empire (as in, the Empire from Classichammer). Other things can and should be discussed - but the majority of the boards should be related to that.

So, the "Empire Discussion Forums" should remain in place. Perhaps we might want to expand them out with separate boards or subboards for specific versions of Classichammer.

2) We should expand the "Count's Tavern" to be a section, rather than a single board. There should be boards on there for Age of Sigmar, 40K - but also for other games such as Kings of War, Shav's new game, Warmachine or whatever people are playing enough to justify its own board. There can be a generic board for "everything else"

3) The Brush & Palette should remain of course, but it can be for ALL painting (even for AoS and other games). Or, we could have subboards for it - but I think keeping it all together would be good. Everyone loves good painting - even if it's not for a game we play.

These are just my suggestions to keep this place going. It is VERY clear to me that the majority of people aren't on fire for Age of Sigmar, but do - in general - love Warhammer and Empire, and also like many other games. There is a LOT of interest on the forum for games other than GW ones and I think giving them their own boards would help keep the interest alive. Mods could even assign specific members to be in charge of specific boards to reduce the load on the mod team.

[Zygmund]

Foremostly: a big THANK YOU for Grutch & co for the promise of keeping this forum up! 

It's good to make some plans beforehand & have them handy if the bad comes to worse.
Those suggestions by Darknight seem rational. I would have nothing against them.

Then again, it's good to wait and see what kind of posts keep pouring in the coming months. Because if there's no big change in what and where the people post, the forum organization need not change markedly. (Edit: The other persistent rumor still is that something grander will come after the AoS, possibly an army-size game with decent support for older models.)

And of course, it's up to Grutch, Bugman & co to really decide. Maybe we should wait for them to open the discussion, if/when they feel like it?

-Z

[valmir]

I don't know that a Big Serious Discussion is necessary at this point. We don't even know really what AoS actually IS. Certainly I think space should be made on the boards for discussion of that game, whether in the Counts Tavern or the main section (along with the Elector's Forum). But I don't see why this can't really just happen organically, or determined responsively as we see (a) what the nature of the new game is; and (b) what sort of traffic/needs it actually has.

Certainly, I don't get why AoS needs to prompt some kind of existential crisis with regard to the forum. People will either continue playing Oldhammer, in which case nothing really needs to change, or people will jump ship to other systems, in which case the forum can already accommodate this within its existing structure (sub-forums added as needed, just as they were for 40k), or people will update to AoS or whatever, in which case the forum can surely accommodate that also.

[GamesPoet]

This seems to be jumping the gun.  If "Warhammer: Age of Sigmar"  is just a skirmish game, and something gets developed and released along the way that is more Empire oriented, then changing this site prematurely is a waste of time and energy.  There's no guarantee that GW will be brilliant enough to continue providing an Empire option, but the End of Times stuff, if it means anything (no guarantee on that either), it doesn't mean there can't be a branch of this hobby still for the Empire.  I recommend going slowly and cautiously to see how things develop before making significant changes based on what little information we have at this time.

[patsy02]

It's a bit early to rebrand, probably. It's warhammer-empire, not warhammer-aos after all.

[Darknight]

I think my vision was there would be NO rebranding - that this would be an oldhammer forum. Because there are very few people even considering playing AoS, but there are loads wanting to stick with oldhammer.

[Xathrodox86]

I think my vision was there would be NO rebranding - that this would be an oldhammer forum. Because there are very few people even considering playing AoS, but there are loads wanting to stick with oldhammer.

I like that. This palce has certainly the "Oldhammer" feel and not the AoS one.

[Reiksguard 1485]

I'm still a new guy around here, so not sure if my opinion really counts... If you're interested, however, I would wholeheartedly back Darknight's proposals.

Reading the AoS rules was depressing, and I cannot deny that in my opinion the Sigmarines are some of the most atrocious things GW have ever made. Including Skullmunchers (or whatever the Khorne things released with ET:Archaon were called).

[Darknight]

I'm still a new guy around here, so not sure if my opinion really counts.

Counts just as much as mine does.

[Darknight]

I just posted this elsewhere;

I get it - people don't like the game. It's out now and what it is very clear. It's NOT Warhammer Fantasy Battle. There is no Empire in it. Absolutely, GW blew up the world.

I am just genuinely puzzled about the fact people who hate the game are constantly posting in the threads about it, complaining and being upset. 8th edition is still a thing - loads of people are saying "my group is EEFL" and Chumley just started a thread calling for revisions to preserve it. There are two or three threads about preserving it.

This site is Warhammer-Empire - so, Warhammer and the Empire as they have existed for a long time. AoS doesn't have either of those things in in any meaningful way. Other settings, other games (40K, Magic the Gathering, Bolt Action, all of that) are discussed on this site too, and people talk about general painting and modelling stuff.

There have been threads about reorganizing the forum, so AoS gets its own little place - like 40K has. I think it's likely to be a big enough "thing" so that it has its own sub-forum, rather than just a thread like Bolt Action or Magic etc.

But I really think that should be done ... for both groups of people. Right now, people who want to have a discussion about AoS are constantly having to deal with complaining and, frankly, insulting posts (see above post about AoS being for people too dumb to walk and chew gum) and anti-AoS people are seeing the Electors' Forum filled with stuff they hate.

It's causing a lot of unpleasantness, and it doesn't need to be. I dislike Magic the Gathering - so I don't go into that thread! Heck, I dislike the off-topic conversations, so I actually got 'Soth to remove my access to it!

This is my call and request; the creation of two things;

1) A sub-forum in the Count's Tavern called "Age of Sigmar" on the pattern of the 40K forum for AoS threads.
2) A user-category called "EEFL" which (like "Pure of Heart") prevents the Age of Sigmar forum from being accessed.

There is just unpleasantness - because there are people who hate AoS and what has happened, and there are people who like it. And both groups are sniping and snipping at it each other.

I think we can all agree we ALL like painting and collecting toy soldiers. The vast majority of us like Warhammer Fantasy Battle and a majority collect Empire. Pretty much all of us collect Games Workshop stuff.

Do we have to be like this?

There isn't a mechanism for formal requests of that sort I can see, so I am making it here. This forum is becoming less and less pleasant because of this antagonism, because of the upsetedness of the anti-AoS players and the infuriating (to them) positivity of the pro-AoS people.

This forum has always been primarily Warhammer Fantasy Battles and Empire. But it has also always had the opportunity to discuss other GW games (of which AoS is one), wargames in general, gaming in general, and painting and modelling.

AoS threads being in a place where the EEFL crowd are constantly exposed to them isn't fair to them - it is filling the forum about the thing they love with something they hate.

For the sake of good order on the forum and general pleasantness, I am asking the moderation team to consider my suggestions.

[Dotification]

^^^
"     "

everything he just said

Before it gets too ugly in here, compared to the rest of the internet . . .

[Captain Fearless]

I joined this forum new to warhammer and proud to be a freshly minted Empire player. I now play Khorne Daemonkin as well, and will soon be trying Age of Sigmar.

None of these things are mutually exclusive.

[DariusZero]

I just posted this elsewhere;

I get it - people don't like the game. It's out now and what it is very clear. It's NOT Warhammer Fantasy Battle. There is no Empire in it. Absolutely, GW blew up the world.

I am just genuinely puzzled about the fact people who hate the game are constantly posting in the threads about it, complaining and being upset. 8th edition is still a thing - loads of people are saying "my group is EEFL" and Chumley just started a thread calling for revisions to preserve it. There are two or three threads about preserving it.

This site is Warhammer-Empire - so, Warhammer and the Empire as they have existed for a long time. AoS doesn't have either of those things in in any meaningful way. Other settings, other games (40K, Magic the Gathering, Bolt Action, all of that) are discussed on this site too, and people talk about general painting and modelling stuff.

There have been threads about reorganizing the forum, so AoS gets its own little place - like 40K has. I think it's likely to be a big enough "thing" so that it has its own sub-forum, rather than just a thread like Bolt Action or Magic etc.

But I really think that should be done ... for both groups of people. Right now, people who want to have a discussion about AoS are constantly having to deal with complaining and, frankly, insulting posts (see above post about AoS being for people too dumb to walk and chew gum) and anti-AoS people are seeing the Electors' Forum filled with stuff they hate.

It's causing a lot of unpleasantness, and it doesn't need to be. I dislike Magic the Gathering - so I don't go into that thread! Heck, I dislike the off-topic conversations, so I actually got 'Soth to remove my access to it!

This is my call and request; the creation of two things;

1) A sub-forum in the Count's Tavern called "Age of Sigmar" on the pattern of the 40K forum for AoS threads.
2) A user-category called "EEFL" which (like "Pure of Heart") prevents the Age of Sigmar forum from being accessed.

There is just unpleasantness - because there are people who hate AoS and what has happened, and there are people who like it. And both groups are sniping and snipping at it each other.

I think we can all agree we ALL like painting and collecting toy soldiers. The vast majority of us like Warhammer Fantasy Battle and a majority collect Empire. Pretty much all of us collect Games Workshop stuff.

Do we have to be like this?

There isn't a mechanism for formal requests of that sort I can see, so I am making it here. This forum is becoming less and less pleasant because of this antagonism, because of the upsetedness of the anti-AoS players and the infuriating (to them) positivity of the pro-AoS people.

This forum has always been primarily Warhammer Fantasy Battles and Empire. But it has also always had the opportunity to discuss other GW games (of which AoS is one), wargames in general, gaming in general, and painting and modelling.

AoS threads being in a place where the EEFL crowd are constantly exposed to them isn't fair to them - it is filling the forum about the thing they love with something they hate.

For the sake of good order on the forum and general pleasantness, I am asking the moderation team to consider my suggestions.

I don't get it, why do you bother reading the "anti-aos" posts in the ffirst place, if they upset you so much? Just skip them, for gods sake, internet is not and will never be a nursery room. Your complaining is so over all the place that it's difficult to avoid your crying posts as much as I try. The forum is called Warhammer and Empire, of both that AOS is neither, so why would we the warhammer empire fans have to jump off your route, jsut to make you happy?

[Darknight]

It's hard to avoid the anti-AoS posts for the same reason, I guess, it's hard to avoid my posts - they are mingled in with the threads.

And the argument is that this forum should remain Warhammer and Empire - but that it should also have support for other games (as it does for 40K) from GW; such as AoS.

There are Magic the Gathering threads, and threads for Orcs & Goblins etc. And because I don't find those interesting, I avoid them. But I can imagine that if I did find them interesting, and went there, and found there were posts negative towards Magic the Gathering there, constantly posted, it would be wearing.

Yes, this forum is Warhammer and Empire. And it should be for people who like Warhammer and Empire. But it has also always - as long as I have been here - a place involving other games and aspects of the hobby. And there hasn't ever been, until now, a tendency for people to denigrate and attack others' hobbies and games.

You say "this is the internet" as if that either excuses or justifies unpleasantness. It doesn't - because this place never had that before.

[valmir]

But the line between WFB and AoS is obviously a lot more problematic than the other examples you cite, Darknight.

I get your point, but this is not just "another system". This is the replacement for WFB. Which spells the end of WFB. And yes, you can continue playing 8th, but they'll stop making the models at some point. And it will become harder and harder to find a group of players for it.

[Darknight]

All of which has nothing, or should have nothing, to do with this forum.

Yes, it is going to be harder for people to play Warhammer 8th Ed (or previous editions) for the reason you cite. But that does not mean it is NOT going to be played. There are a load of "EEFL" people out there - many on this forum. They want to continue to play Warhammer and Empire. And there are people who play both.

There is nothing in my ideas which suggest this forum should become exclusively or even primarily an AoS forum. Rather, I am saying two things about AoS;

1) It is a significant enough game that it deserves (like 40K has) its own sub-forum for discussions.
2) It is so contentious an issue that people should be able to choose - if they wish - to avoid those discussions.

Right now, if you talk about 40K in the Elector's Forum, it will rightly get moved to the 40K forum. If you speak about painting, it gets moved to the B&P. If you speak about Bolt Action, it gets moved to the Counts Tavern. If you speak about religion or politics, it gets moved to the Back Table.

I am advocating a situation where there is a forum for AoS and conversations about AoS are started there, or get moved there by a mod.

[Midaski]

There was always bickering when WHFB changed editions and although this time it is heavier, the game hasn't even officially launched yet, and it's only a week since we saw some facts rather than rumours.

Maybe people should stop arguing - there is no need to ramp it up by responding to very post with an opposing view, as some people seem intent on doing.

2) It is so contentious an issue that people should be able to choose - if they wish - to avoid those discussions.

Exactly my point above.

1) It is a significant enough game that it deserves (like 40K has) its own sub-forum for discussions.

Significant  after a week is very debatable.
You might be proven to be correct in the future, when it might deserve the same treatment as 40K



The staff have been having ongoing discussions as I have said before. We will take out time and not be hurried, and will make any changes we feel necessary when we feel they are merited.
The prime consideration will be preserving the site and its future.

[valmir]

All of which has nothing, or should have nothing, to do with this forum.

It has everything to do with this forum. This is a forum of people who were brought together by something that has just been deleted. The process of people coming to terms with AoS - the ups and the downs - is precisely what this community is currently going through.

I do agree with you that there should be a sub-forum. But when you talk about "denigrating others' hobbies and games", I completely lose you. Because nobody is. Everybody is denigrating the game that their own has been replaced with, not just some other game.

[Darknight]

I do not see that AoS is the replacement for Warhammer in that sense - not in the sense 8th was a replacement for 7th.

Rather, GW have stopped supporting Warhammer and have released AoS.

It's perhaps a subtle distinction, but it is one I would dearly love to make ... because that means Warhammer itself is still a game, and not just "the old edition". The two games are radically different.

I want the site to continue as Warhammer Empire, but I also want it to be somewhere where people can discuss all sorts of things without people getting attacked merely for liking a different game.

[valmir]

Yes - it's an important distinction. And it's precisely this distinction that has everybody so butt-hurt, i think.

[valmir]

Also - has anyone ACTUALLY been attacked for liking it? I've seen a lot of people attacking the game, and attacking gw, but very little attacking ither people.

Any umpleasantness that I've seen has stemmed from people's inability to understand why others might not recognise the validity of their (subjective, non-mutually-exclusive) views and feelings.

[Darknight]

Things such as "only children would like this" or "this is a game for people too stupid to breathe on their own" have been said. And people have been called shills for GW etc. etc.

[valmir]

Fair enough. Although I certainly read the "children's game" comment in a very different way from how you obviously did.

[The Real Rick Salamone]

Please take this in the most positive way possible:

EEFL!


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[The Real Rick Salamone]

All joking aside, GW has now left our hobby unattended, abandoned, and discarded. We, the EEFL community, are highly competent gamers and hobbyists. Warhammer belongs to us now and we will treat it with the passion and reverence that it deserves.

EEFL.


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