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Author Topic: Cannons=Crutch?  (Read 2322 times)

Offline Padre

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2021, 02:04:41 PM »
There's still a random amount added, and then a random bounce, so still a fair chance of missing. I've seen a lot of missed shots in 8th.
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Online Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2021, 07:13:16 AM »
Over at EEFL, Kevin Coleman produced this Cannon Defence. Although it is for the 8th edition, most of the general principles apply to earlier editions too.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
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Offline Padre

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2021, 09:08:26 AM »
From an 8th ed campaign battle a few years ago. Here is the mighty orc warlord Khurnag, having just been set up on the table, turn one, empire enemy's phase, greenskins yet to have their turn.



The game's first missile phase, cannons shoot and ...



The battle did not go well from there!
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Offline brr-icy

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2021, 10:00:49 AM »
I have played maybe 6 games of 8th, never enjoyed any of them. I found it unbalanced between phases, dumbed down for new players that couldn't afford to start into it anyways, and off-putting for a lot of veteran players. Our local game store's fantasy night went from 14 players every week during 6th, to under 10 during 7th as the later books started unbalancing the game too much, to two diehards during 8th that just came to play each other.

Offline brr-icy

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2021, 10:03:27 AM »
On a side note, I am going to try my empire list without cannons, and add in Asarnil and his dragon I just got in. Give Empire a big monster instead. Might be a fun addition.

Offline Jmash

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2021, 11:15:07 AM »
Out of interest - what do people consider to be an average number of artillery pieces to take in a fairly standard army setup? And what are they?

My army is just for some self gratification and hobby enjoyment so I don't play any games with them, but I'm sort of intrigued as to whether I have too few/many big guns in my ranks :-P

Offline Zygmund

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2021, 11:26:30 AM »
I take (or took) two or three artillery pieces. One is a cannon, one is a volley gun, and the optional third is a second cannon or a mortar.

For a long time I didn't have a steam tank because I avoided cheesy lists. Now that I have one I've only played it in Kings of War. But considering the combination of cannon and a decent melee/tarpit unit, I could see the stank a standard part of most Empire lists.

Love modelling & painting artillery. I have about ten painted artillery pieces, plus some arquebuses and light artillery which do not have rules in official Empire books.  :happy:

-Z
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Offline Jmash

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2021, 12:56:45 PM »
Ah - well I think I'm probably packing a lot of heat then! :lol:

I am a big collector of Imperial Guard where 3 is always the magic number when it comes to heavy weapons teams, Sentinel squadrons etc. so this has translated into my Empire army and I have 3... of everything... almost.

3 cannons, 3 mortars, 3 hellblasters. I only have 1 rocketstorm though because that was always described as a bit of an experimental weapon so 1 is enough, and 2 stanks, the plastic one and the preceding metal version (not the tiny classic one) though there's some room for expansion there if I ever secure any of the conversion kits :-P

Offline Padre

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2021, 01:02:45 PM »
The only stank I have is a weakened (poorer stats) Tilean version that has been part of my Tilean armies. I never really go for big monsters in my armies, but I have, since 3rd ed WFB, usually had two cannons in a 2000 - 2500 pt Empire army, and since 6th (I think) occasionally one helblaster or one helstorm, certainly if 2,500 + pts.
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Offline Michael W

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2021, 12:22:45 AM »
I went with a pair of cannons in 6th edition at 2000 points by default.  One could be swapped to a mortar if I was facing elves or skaven, but the pair did solid work (and gave me some perspective on why Napoleonic batteries were organized into sections of 2 guns).  I think a gun per thousand points worked fairly well, though there were some fun tactics in adding a Helblaster as a mobile area-denial weapon.  Two guns per thousand points would feel like overkill to me.

I never considered cannons to be a simplistic solution to anything.  They were just the Imperial answer to things that could rack up more than 5 points of CR; anything less than that could be handled by the infantry.
Let them taste Reikland steel!
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Offline brr-icy

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2021, 08:27:27 AM »
My empire army has 2 cannons, 2 mortars and one helblaster. I like variety too much to put more than that in a 3k list. Rares I don't like to double up if i can help it

Online Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2021, 08:58:35 AM »
In a standard game I too usually have 2 war machines. In 6th one cannon and one mortar of HBVG; in 7th one cannon and one mortar, since the HBVG was NBU; in 8th one cannon and one HBVG, since the mortar is now NBU.

Two or three years ago, I finally bought a Steam Tank, but I have not been able yet to use in a game.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline commandant

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2021, 09:37:42 AM »
I took 2 cannons at 2999 points, sometime 2 cannons and HVG to make a battery.

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2021, 07:34:39 PM »
As I said before , the only time the Empire could be considered a 1st tier army was during the overlap 8th edition BRB/7th edition AB, when it did really paid off to have a battery controlled by an Engineer:   

“Master of Ballistics: A Master Engineer within 3" of a war machine is allowed to take a ‘Look Out Sir!’ roll as if he was within 3" of a unit of five or more models. In addition, one war machine that is within 3" of a Master Engineer may re-roll either one scatter dice or one artillery dice per turn. This may not be used to re-roll the distance bounced by a cannonball. If the Engineer uses his re-roll ability, he cannot shoot with his own missile weapon in the same Shooting phase.”
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Warlord

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2021, 10:09:39 PM »
Only time the engineer was any good.
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Online Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2021, 08:52:07 AM »
In 8th, he provides great synergy with the HBVG, although the latter can stand on its own too.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Warlord

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2021, 06:45:18 AM »
Cost vs a second instead and saving hero points is a legitimate strategy.
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline brr-icy

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2021, 09:56:47 AM »
As I said before , the only time the Empire could be considered a 1st tier army was during the overlap 8th edition BRB/7th edition AB, when it did really paid off to have a battery controlled by an Engineer:   

“Master of Ballistics: A Master Engineer within 3" of a war machine is allowed to take a ‘Look Out Sir!’ roll as if he was within 3" of a unit of five or more models. In addition, one war machine that is within 3" of a Master Engineer may re-roll either one scatter dice or one artillery dice per turn. This may not be used to re-roll the distance bounced by a cannonball. If the Engineer uses his re-roll ability, he cannot shoot with his own missile weapon in the same Shooting phase.”

That makes him actually worth taking compared to the 6th one. HBVG explodes on me like 2/3 of the time on first fire, so I don't see it as much of a threat compared to the cannons. A reroll would be stellar. Too bad it's not in the 6th book

Offline Michael W

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2021, 09:46:25 PM »
The 6th Engineer was never that useful, agreed, though if I was taking a single cannon I might very well use him to increase the gun's efficiency.  But usually I was shorter on hero slots than specials, so that old policy of just taking a second gun worked perfectly well.

For the HBVG in 6th, I liked the tactic (that I definitely got from someone on this forum) of moving it up with the infantry.  The gun's power doubled at close range, the infantry kept it safe from enemy attack, and your enemy was always going to be very very uncomfortable about getting a block of troops within 12" of it because what if you don't roll poorly?  It probably wasn't worth its points in killing power, but it was worth it's points in fear.   :evil: 

And, you know, the less you shot with it, the lower the chance of it blowing up.
Let them taste Reikland steel!
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Online Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2021, 10:31:19 PM »
Except, of course, that if it moves, it cannot not fire (then and now). And it cannot march either. There certainly can be occasions, where moving the HBVG is warranted, but not really to keep pace with the infantry.

That said, in 6th (and even more so 7th), the points of an Engineer would have been completely wasted on a HBVG. I took him with a Hochland, joined to a Mortar,  to re-roll a Misfire on the Mortar, if needed, and otherwise snipe characters with the Hochland. 
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Warlord

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2021, 07:39:04 AM »
I always found it was cheaper just to get another mortar.

IMO The engineer has an issue with being too many points compared to the price of just buying another war machine.
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline commandant

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2021, 12:40:21 PM »
I suppose it depends on how much value you place on BS4.   It is worth remembering that there were far fewer models in 6th and as such each one was more valuable.

Offline Warlord

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2021, 01:52:36 PM »
Thats not true. Handgunner champions had it, and could take HLR. And the helblaster didn’t need BS back then. The best use for an engineer was on a barded warhorse with a repeater pistol and Van Horstman’s Speculum.

BS to me was never a useful stat, when warmachines can deal so much more damage.
In 6th ed, a unit of 10 handgunners was 80pts, and a Mortar 75pts. To me it was a no brainer. And the HLR barely ever did anything in any game I took it. Unless you took a gunline of 4x10 handgunner units each with champion with HLR. And even then, it still wasn’t all that effective.
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline Michael W

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2021, 10:24:01 PM »
I thought HLRs were situational and the best use was pairing with a wizard or engineer with Van Horstman's, or a Captasus.  The HLR would eliminate the unit champion in order to deny the target hero the ability to avoid a challenge (for Van Horstman's) or to have his champion challenge (for the Captasus).

I only think I tried it once or twice myself.  But the theory seemed to be sound.
Let them taste Reikland steel!
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Offline commandant

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Re: Cannons=Crutch?
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2021, 02:23:29 PM »
No I mean putting an engineer with the HBVG gave it BS4