Topic: TVI one year in..?

[commandant]

Firstly I think there are 2 different points of view that need to be considered.   The first is the player and the second is the games designer.   In the first case you want as much consistency as possible. In the second case you don't.

If there is no way to oppose something then game designers only want it to happen about 50% of the time.

The second question is how good the prayers are. The answer is it sort of depends on what they are paired with.

For example the Sigmarite prayer to re-roll ones to hit and to wound is really good if you wound on a 2+ (say knights charging). Your chance of not wounding goes from 1/6 to 1/36. That is a big difference.
Obviously if you wound on a 3+ it is less strong but you still get to re-roll half of your non wounding attacks.

Likewise the prayer which gives you multi wound 2 is really good if you play a lot if ogres etc but less good if you play against a lot of goblins.

Re-roll 6's to be hit combined with glittering robe and the bedazzling helm means that your character (assuming he is fighting something with a high WS than him) goes from a 1/6 chance of being hit by each dice to a 1/36 chance.
If you play in an environment with a lot of poison then again each dice goes from a 1/6 chance of causing an auto wound to a 1/36 chance.
These are really strong effects that your opponent can do nothing to counter.


As has already being pointed out above failing leadership tests are a lot less punishing in TOW. Also, for break tests, its worth nothing that LD8 in 6th is the same as LD7 in TOW because you always (stubborn aside) took tests at at least -1.

When it comes to the guard v greatswords or veteran halberdiers I suppose it depends on what you are doing.
I is an important stat but it is also sort if binary. I know a player who basically takes great weapons on his dwarfs because he doesn't think there is a difference between I2 and I1.

Greatswords are I4 on the charge which is ahead or at the same time as most non elf things I think.

Obviously more attacks is better than fewer attacks but here the different between the guard and greatswords is the detachments. Detachments can add up to 12-15 attacks to the greatsword unit regardless of whether they charge or are charge (more if they have battle lust and charge) where as the furious charge requires you to charge. Obviously your opponent can act against your detachments but can't act against furious charge, except where one of my opponent dumped his spearelfs 1 inch from my knights of the white wolf.

[Sir Falo]

When it comes to the guard v greatswords or veteran halberdiers I suppose it depends on what you are doing.
I is an important stat but it is also sort if binary. I know a player who basically takes great weapons on his dwarfs because he doesn't think there is a difference between I2 and I1.

Greatswords are I4 on the charge which is ahead or at the same time as most non elf things I think.

Obviously more attacks is better than fewer attacks but here the different between the guard and greatswords is the detachments. Detachments can add up to 12-15 attacks to the greatsword unit regardless of whether they charge or are charge (more if they have battle lust and charge) where as the furious charge requires you to charge. Obviously your opponent can act against your detachments but can't act against furious charge, except where one of my opponent dumped his spearelfs 1 inch from my knights of the white wolf.

Its not even close on how much better T Guard are over Greatswords.

First, to get a Veteran Drilled Greatswords the cost more then T Guard. Then T Guard have one more toughness  (and that really matters) and rerolls ones to hit. On that their weapons are way better. Having I6 over I4 on the charge makes a big difference. Makes you strike before a lot of characters and regiments. Sometimes with fall back you dont get the full +3 ether. So it matters.
Detachments on the side just makes the points difference even greater. And on that whide detachments are very easy to counter.

[commandant]

Admittedly I'd forgotten the toughness 4 which is quite a big deal.

In order to get the re-rolls of a 1 you need to pay an extra point per model.

Also the wolf hammers are only str +1 (+2 on the charge). So the Guard are very dependent on getting the charge in that respect.
They are also heavy infantry which is good.

I really think that drilled is good but in the 10 games I played with veteran drilled halberdiers I only used it once.   I'm not sure it is ad good on infantry as it is on calvary. Maybe I am not aggressive enough.   Maybe I need the drilled on the detachments instead.



One of the standard takeaways from my 10 game challenge is that none of my opponent did find dealing with my detachments easy.   
Remember also that a greatswords detachments are stubborn as well which makes them even harder to deal with.

Certainly for the TVI strategy, where one of the objects is to cover from one table edge to the other, it is not st at clear.

When considering points cost does the price of the warrior priest get calculated.

[Sir Falo]

Admittedly I'd forgotten the toughness 4 which is quite a big deal.

In order to get the re-rolls of a 1 you need to pay an extra point per model.

Also the wolf hammers are only str +1 (+2 on the charge). So the Guard are very dependent on getting the charge in that respect.
They are also heavy infantry which is good.

I really think that drilled is good but in the 10 games I played with veteran drilled halberdiers I only used it once.   I'm not sure it is ad good on infantry as it is on calvary. Maybe I am not aggressive enough.   Maybe I need the drilled on the detachments instead.



One of the standard takeaways from my 10 game challenge is that none of my opponent did find dealing with my detachments easy.   
Remember also that a greatswords detachments are stubborn as well which makes them even harder to deal with.

Certainly for the TVI strategy, where one of the objects is to cover from one table edge to the other, it is not st at clear.

When considering points cost does the price of the warrior priest get calculated.

I have played at 7 tournaments with Drilled veteran Halbeards. Drilled is extremely important to make infantry not terrible. Its hard to learn how to use. But a must have. You will always buy the rerolls ones every time. They are still cheaper. Even with the Strength 4 they do have Ap2. They are just way better than Greatswords, and I have really tried geting Greatswords to work.

But if you are going for TVI I think getting some kind of normal State troops to work is the key

[commandant]

I'm sure its good.   I just found that I didn't use it at all.   The only time I used it was to launch my infantry block at a gunline and that went really badly for me.

How do you use it with infantry?
I find I use drilled a lot with the knights but not really with the infantry.

Admittedly I played that game badly.

With the re-roll 1s Guard cost 14 points per model + the cost of the warrior priest (though admittedly the warrior priest gives other benefits as well)
Greatswords with vet are 12 points and with vet and drilled cost 14 points as well.

So they are the same cost - the warrior priest.

It is likely better in an army that doesn't have detachments because you don't want to leave your detachments behind maybe.   

Oh I do think state troops are the way to go in a TVI army.   Veteran Halberdiers are really quite good.   

[commandant]

Its also worth noting that the counts champion can take 50 points of magic items where as the champion of the guard can't. I'm not sure if there are any magic items you'd want to put on him though the ruby ring or wizarding hat for the summoning could be funny.

[Calimehter]

Though I have gone on record as saying (and believing) that TVI would have a rough go of it in TOW, I am intrigued by the idea of having a standardized "building block battalion" (or BBB) that you could take two or even three of in a TVI-esque setup, with adjustments for the modern game.  Here's a first thought of mine:

BBB (406pts total):

Captain on Demigryph - full plate, shield, GW - 107pts
19 State Troops - full command, no other extras - 129pts
4 Empire Knights - lance+shield, Drilled, Stubborn - 106pts
8 Archers - Fire and Flee - 64pts (not a detachment)

- The idea here is to present some flexibility with just enough power and static CR that they can't be completely ignored or thwarted with a simple flank guard unit.  The idea is also to avoid using up any 0-1 options and leave the rest of your non-BBB army options open.

- The Captain defaults to deploying in the State Troops (forming a full 5x5 block) though he could also leave if circumstance dictates.  He is there for panic protection, as well as for his extra S5 attacks to help grind down anyone getting stuck in - I would default him to HW+shield for the 2+save in most circumstances given that he only has 2 attacks, but if facing down an opponent who is going to ignore him in favor of the soft infantry, then the GW option exists to add a bit of oomph.

- The Archers screen and/or apply a bit of pressure against anyone who would try to ignore the BBB altogether.

- The Knights do the flanking and/or diverting thing, and maybe even doing a tag-team charge with the Captain if you needed to be aggressive on a given flank

------------

Taking two of these BBBs would fill up your core allowance at 2000pts and take up 6 deployment "drops" (not counting the Captains here) while still leaving nearly 1200 points left for your General/Wizard Lord and some kind of main heavy hitting force (KoTWW, Stank, big block of Greatswords or TG, etc. etc.).

Taking three of these BBBs -still- leaves just shy of 800pts for Lords and maybe something fun like a small artillery battery.

There's room for flex too - you could bump up the Knights #s, add some halberds/spears, give the Captain something like the Sword of Might/Charmed Shield/Witch Hunter's Ward (all common magic items), and so on.  You could even drop the Knights for DemiGryphs (with some obvious benefits, though now you would need to add some Core from somewhere else outside the BBB structure, and their loss of Stubborn/Drilled can sometimes hurt in a support role).

Dunno if I'll personally have a chance to try it out a lot in the near future, but its got me interested in trying it.

[Warlord]

Admittedly I'd forgotten the toughness 4 which is quite a big deal.

In order to get the re-rolls of a 1 you need to pay an extra point per model.

Also the wolf hammers are only str +1 (+2 on the charge). So the Guard are very dependent on getting the charge in that respect.
They are also heavy infantry which is good.

I really think that drilled is good but in the 10 games I played with veteran drilled halberdiers I only used it once.   I'm not sure it is ad good on infantry as it is on calvary. Maybe I am not aggressive enough.   Maybe I need the drilled on the detachments instead.



One of the standard takeaways from my 10 game challenge is that none of my opponent did find dealing with my detachments easy.   
Remember also that a greatswords detachments are stubborn as well which makes them even harder to deal with.

Certainly for the TVI strategy, where one of the objects is to cover from one table edge to the other, it is not st at clear.

When considering points cost does the price of the warrior priest get calculated.