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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Topic started by: FriscoEmpire on August 01, 2012, 04:00:14 PM
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I was playing a guy who wanted to place a diverting unit in front of my block to slow it down. But when he went to execute the move, he goofed it up and didn't have it in the right position or even angled quite right. So he backed it up, tried it again. And only on the third time did he really pull it off with the right distances for pivots and movement and end up where he needed to be.
Do you guys allow that? Do you do it yourself? Or should part of the game be about physically executing troop movement effectively?
Same with setting up at deployment. If someone puts down a block of troops but doesn't leave enough room to stick something else where he wants it, do you let him shift the first thing over to make room for it? Or once it's down, is it down?
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I've killed a man for measuring wrong
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We play Chess rules, once you place you can't change !
You need to have a weapon by the table, to remind your opponent what can happen if they cheat
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i give my friends alittle bit of wiggle room because its no fun when everyone gets pissy... but three times? :Ohmy:
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I personally hold myself to chess rules, and its cost me oh so many times. But I dont mind if people reposition - I dont like it but I dont care enough to call them on it.
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If it was a tournament, chess rules (kind of), but otherwise I let stuff slide, particularly if I know what his intention is.
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During deployment I'd let it pass, but not during game, not a millimeter!
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During friendly games I let it slide. My attitude is that we play for fun and to learn (the later being more important in this context.) Hell, I've mentioned that they didn't set a unit up properly for what they wanted from time to time and let them fix it. I want all the players around me to be at top shape so that when (not if) I beat them in a more serious setting then they know there was never any hope to begin with...
...suddenly I think I should be playing Dark Elves or Chaos.
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As long as it is still in the correct movement turn, we don't care, I guess.
In the deployment phase we dont go back and change something after the opponent has placed one of his units.
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I allow even much more.
That's because I do much worse myself... :icon_redface:
Something like "oh, I forgot to move that unit during movement phase, may I move it?
- what did you wanted to do?
- From here to there?
- Fine, go ahead."
Also, when we move, if it is with a specific intention, we state it:
"I place this unit here so that you don't have room between the building and the unit to charge that other unit"
Then we don't need to check during the opponent's turn.
But of course, that's house games.
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id let him redo it once or twice if he was a newer player, but otherwise its down its down!
ive fucked up redirecting and it lead to bad things happening, so shall you too experience bad things happening
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During friendly games I let it slide. My attitude is that we play for fun and to learn (the later being more important in this context.) Hell, I've mentioned that they didn't set a unit up properly for what they wanted from time to time and let them fix it. I want all the players around me to be at top shape so that when (not if) I beat them in a more serious setting then they know there was never any hope to begin with...
...suddenly I think I should be playing Dark Elves or Chaos.
I am liking this man. Buy him beer I will. :::cheers:::
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I allow even much more.
That's because I do much worse myself... :icon_redface:
Something like "oh, I forgot to move that unit during movement phase, may I move it?
- what did you wanted to do?
- From here to there?
- Fine, go ahead."
Totally let people do this.
Also, when we move, if it is with a specific intention, we state it:
"I place this unit here so that you don't have room between the building and the unit to charge that other unit"
Then we don't need to check during the opponent's turn.
This feels weird to me. I would announce my intent but you really do need to make sure the block in place otherwise if there's space.
id let him redo it once or twice if he was a newer player, but otherwise its down its down!
Once fine, couple of times, no go. IF it's a problem I make him mark the back corner of the unit before he fiddles with it.
Noght
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I move, then my foe moves. Sometimes he moves first. It is a serious business.
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When it comes to a friendly game I usually even ask people if that was really what they intended to do if it just gives me a shot at pulling off an overpowering flank charge. Or remind them of my steel standard, or point out that they just didn't do what they clearly intended. I don't always get the favor returned, but that's to be expected. I just try to make a friendly game as enjoyable as possible, even if that means I'll deny myself a killing blow :smile2:
In a tournament or tournament preparation games however I will exploit every movement error, as I expect others to do exactly the same! :ph34r: At least I remember the mistakes I payed dearly for!
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I allow even much more.
That's because I do much worse myself... :icon_redface:
Something like "oh, I forgot to move that unit during movement phase, may I move it?
- what did you wanted to do?
- From here to there?
- Fine, go ahead."
Also, when we move, if it is with a specific intention, we state it:
"I place this unit here so that you don't have room between the building and the unit to charge that other unit"
Then we don't need to check during the opponent's turn.
But of course, that's house games.
This is how we play. We don't go back to phases that have already passed, but if it is still during THEIR movement, they can move their piece all they want.
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I'm happy to let people move units that they forgot to move, or fiddle with a unit's movement as much as they want, provided it's clear they've got spare movement to burn and there's no way they'll accidentally over reach on their movement. And I've only ever once disputed a guy's move of a unit, but that was only after he'd already been very generous in moving units the previous turn, and then disputed a move from one of my units.
Basically Warhammer is a fiddly game, and when we get really strict over minutia like movement then the game can get to be more about fine details than about clever ideas and runs of good and bad dice.
Tournaments, of course, are a little different, as plenty of people really are there to win. I normally play that by ear, trying to act like my opponent does. Doesn't always work of course, like the example above (which was in 40K, but the principle is the same).
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Basically Warhammer is a fiddly game, and when we get really strict over minutia like movement then the game can get to be more about fine details than about clever ideas and runs of good and bad dice.
Agreed. I always let people reposition, charge after movement, and cast spells that were forgotten. Playing chess-style in a game like this is a bit absurd to me, and no-one likes a tightass.
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...and no-one likes a tightass.
Speak for yourself!
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...and no-one likes a tightass.
Speak for yourself!
:::cheers:::
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The way our gaming has evolved recently, we stay real cool about everything, trusting in mutual fairness, though we do try to make accurate moves. And if there are several things moving near each other and at the same time, we might measure the first and make sure it gets there correctly, then just move the others up around it to match the original positioning or with any reasonable amount of alteration if they're not moving as far as the unit first measured-and-moved. Same with charges: if it's clear that it can cross the distance, we just move it up into contact.
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We let stuff like this slide all the time. As long as the forgotten move or roll would not have affected anything in the meantime, then we're ok. Usually we simply say: You owe me one. That way they are happy to let us remember stuff a bit late. Often it's stuff they know we wanted to do 'cos we talked about it earlier, just forgot to do it.
We have even put mistaken casualties back on and removed forgotten ones, and other stuff.
But if doing so means something else since the forgotten action would have been different, or might have caused either player to act differently, then we don't allow it.
Look at it in a Science Fiction time travelling sense - if flapping the butterfly wings we forgot to flap won't change what's happened anywhere else, then fine. If it means a new timeline bursts into being (meaning rewinding the game) then no.
And just as often we say, "Flibble, forgot to do that - ah well." And just get on with it.
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I think (I hope) that unless it's a close, tense game I'll usually say "my fault, let's carry on" and I'll make a mental note to move the unit first next turn
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I think this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd6unpM_5YA&feature=related) sums up our group mentality.
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But if doing so means something else since the forgotten action would have been different, or might have caused either player to act differently, then we don't allow it.
This is the bottom line for me I think. I see it as a practical, not a "moral" issue.
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As someone who makes a lot of nooby mistakes, I must say that I feel I learnt more from losing a game because of one :eusa_wall: mistake rather than mistakes I'll soon forget because my opponent let me go back and do the move :p
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One of the best ways to avoid multiple moves yourself is to have extra movement trays that match all the trays your forces sit on. You can place the empty tray several different ways to make sure you like the "ending spot" and measure to make sure it is a legal move. Then you move the actual unit.
As far as the question of allowing "go back, corrections, missed something" with my gaming crew:
--if it is a friendly game then it is all about having fun, testing things out, learning, etc so we pretty much allow people to "go back" and do almost anything they forgot.
--When it is a competitive game, the opposing player is not under any obligation to allow corrections. If he shrugs his shoulders and doesn't care, cool. If he shakes his head and says no, cool.
Some times the best way to learn from a mistake is to suffer the brutal consequences of it! It gets firmly lodged in the 'ol memory banks so you don't do it again!
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As HHG said, it depends of the opponent and the mood of the game, if I'm playing vs a newbie or a competent player, friendly or competitve, etc. I tend to be more exigent with me than with my opponent and normally life carries on.
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The only person I will not allow to go back is my brother. Because he is my brother!
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It usually doesn't happen around here that someone wants to shuffle already deployed units around. I'd probably allow a nudge but no complete change of position unless it's one of the scenarios in which you deploy everything at once. That one is different.
As to moving, I try to be exact and expect the same from every opponent but pivots and wheels often cannot be executed to the millimeter.
I usually don't allow people to charge when they've already started normal movement. There's been exceptions to all these guidelines of course.
Also, when we move, if it is with a specific intention, we state it:
"I place this unit here so that you don't have room between the building and the unit to charge that other unit"
Then we don't need to check during the opponent's turn.
This feels weird to me. I would announce my intent but you really do need to make sure the block in place otherwise if there's space.
Well, making sure there's (not) enough room between stuff is one thing that needs to apply physically but for example, using the 1" rule to block wheels or hem units in can be difficult to eyeball - and if your opponent has already picked up his unit thinking he's got enough room to maneouver, it's nearly impossible to put it back in its exact place to measure.
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Well, making sure there's (not) enough room between stuff is one thing that needs to apply physically but for example, using the 1" rule to block wheels or hem units in can be difficult to eyeball - and if your opponent has already picked up his unit thinking he's got enough room to maneouver, it's nearly impossible to put it back in its exact place to measure.
Yeah, we often say what we mean, so its clear what the intent is and we can avoid having to get down and measure to the fraction of an inch. So, for instance, moving pistoliers up in front of an enemy unit its important to be with 6" to shoot at close range, but further than 5" away so that when he charges you you can be confident of getting away, so I just tell my opponent I want to be within 6" but farther than 5", and then put the unit there.
That's a simple example, because it's pretty unlikely there'll be any confusion over a whole inch of movement unless I'm deploying on an angle, but there's plenty of others. The other day my opponent moved his last remaining grail knight, and told me he wanted him to be angled so that both my crossbowmen and my cannon were within his charge arc next turn (as he wasn't sure which unit would be alive & unengaged next turn). His grail knights aren't on square bases so their front arc isn't always clear, so I just eyeballed it, saw he could deploy so that both units could be in his front arc, and said that was cool.
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Friendlies I let this and other things slide. In a tournament not a chance!
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I'm pretty ambivalent on moving. Especially where my opponent could have clearly made the move without breaking any rules. It's easier just to pick up a unit and move it to a desired place than have to worry about pivots. But where there's a close fit or it is difficult to maneuver a unit, I think precise movement is required.
And once the movement phase is over that's it. No going back.
One thing I've noticed recently are people who measure from my units to decide where to position theirs during movement. I know you're allowed to premeasure, but it really bugs me when people measure 14" away from my unit and park their horde just outside of that range.
Same for LoS checks. Check your line of sight, not mine.