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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Topic started by: Lord Eli on December 07, 2012, 07:39:27 AM
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enough sed what is better to make and use?
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still dont see the diffrense between handgunners and crossbows
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Crossbows have over 24" range and thus can shoot if you get the first turn of the game. The longer range means that the negative for long range is reduced faster than a handgunner. Xbows are way superior to Handguns unless you are versing armies with very high armour saves.
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handguns sound nicer. You get to make booming sounds as they explode
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Yes, this is pretty simple - and there are multiple threads on the forum debating this. (I prefer xbows ruleswise - fluffwise I think Handgunners are nice)
Note that only hadgunners have the option for buying hocland rifle (and repater handgund I think) for their champ - but only when the unit is a regiment ie. not a detachment.
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enough sed what is better to make and use?
Excuse me, but I think that's a rather silly question... You can read the rules in the BRB and since the profile doesn't differ by equiptment worn, it's a rather simple calculation for any given scenario in which you consider using them.
Archers, good for flexible missile support, screeening, counter-fire, redirecting enemy charges.
Crossbow, good for static, long-range missile firepower
Handgunners, superior to crossbowmen against armoured cavalry.
It's all there in the BRB. Cheers :::cheers:::
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This has been debated ad nauseam already. For 9 points a model it's difficult to claim that either of them are very good, especially with BS3, but Xbows shoot further, which is their selling point, and handguns hit harder. Honestly, if you want ranged damage, use magic.
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I prefer xbows ruleswise - fluffwise I think Handgunners are nice
+1
Archers are not to be compered with them. They can move 8" and shoot but more importantly, block enemy from moving into your goodies.
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Honestly, if you want ranged damage, use magic.
Heh, really.
Spam a bunch of level 1 fire wizzards and take the signature spell.
If you spam enough you'll roll some 6's for channeling.
I guarantee these wizzards will cause more kills than the crossbowmen or handgunners.
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I'm of the opinion that the only BS missile troops in the core section that is worth it is the archers due to their skirmishing rules. If we look at specials also well then there is outriders and pistoleers who make for excellent missile troops. And Outriders work very well with archers and huntsmen screening and re-directing for them while the pistoleers zip around troops shooting them at close range and feign flighting when needed.
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Honestly, if you want ranged damage, use magic.
Heh, really.
Spam a bunch of level 1 fire wizzards and take the signature spell.
If you spam enough you'll roll some 6's for channeling.
I guarantee these wizzards will cause more kills than the crossbowmen or handgunners.
Sadly you are probably correct.
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I guarantee these wizzards will cause more kills than the crossbowmen or handgunners.
Wizards are not Core.
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I guarantee these wizzards will cause more kills than the crossbowmen or handgunners.
Wizards are not Core.
Yet, for 65 points, they perform the same function admirably. We have access to Knights and State-Troops in our core, when you can take a couple of Light/Bright Wizards for firepower, the H2H potential of the rest of the core is certainly not something to be forgotten.
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Honestly, if you want ranged damage, use magic.
Heh, really.
Spam a bunch of level 1 fire wizzards and take the signature spell.
If you spam enough you'll roll some 6's for channeling.
I guarantee these wizzards will cause more kills than the crossbowmen or handgunners.
I've never considered mutliple level 1 fire wizards before. Interesting. Have you tried this? How many do you normally take in a 2000-2500 point list?
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They are not actually that inefficient, when you consider the Kindleflame Lore attribute. You could probably stand to take 2-3, and you wouldn't cut into your points too much.
The same is, of course, true for the Light Coven, where you need multiple Level 1 wizards to increase the S of the Banishment. The multiple instances of Shem's can really start to rack up the damage.
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I actually disagree with a lot of the statements made here - small squads of Handgunners or Crossbowmen to guard artillery are a worthwhile investment in my mind (they stand in the way of front charges, they pick off some Wounds coming in, can charge the war machine hunter if they get too close), and they help fill out minimum Core, which can be a bit of a tricky thing to do sometimes. A L1 Fire Wizard can probably out-blast them with medium-version Fireball spam, but that cuts into the power dice you would spend on the big Wizard's spells and your Battle Prayers, it's not Core, and it doesn't have the other functions that having 10 bodies provides.
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I actually disagree with a lot of the statements made here - small squads of Handgunners or Crossbowmen to guard artillery are a worthwhile investment in my mind (they stand in the way of front charges...
How does this one actually work out though? Unless the warmachine hunters are completely inept they'll just charge the hand gunners, run them over and end up in combat with your cannon anyway.
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Exactly what I want them to do - the Handgunners will Stand & Shoot them, and that combined with any previous rounds of shooting will hopefully be enough to kill them or delay them for a couple of turns (they'll be Steadfast against the majority of conventional war machine hunters for at least 1 round of combat). 10 guys who got to pump shots in before the fight stand a much better chance of winning than 3 who didn't (the typical war machine crew).
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If you want warmachine protectors then outriders are the way to go. 5 outriders are only 15pts more than 10 handgunners but you get more dmg, armour saves, horse combat attacks. You also get to re-position them in case your opponent had a sneaky set up. If you don't want outriders then the only other option is xbows because they have more range over outriders.
If your having trouble filling up core I have to ask how? Knights and Halberds fill up the core very quickly and they complement any type of Empire build you could be making.
If your having fun games then take whatever but from a competitive side theres not much to hum and haw about.
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That's precisely the problem - I don't have enough Core to afford stuffing in the Outriders, and I feel Knights would mesh poorly with the rest of the list, given that I already have 2 units of DGK's. Perhaps you would care to discuss it over on my army list thread here (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=44542.0)?
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I actually disagree with a lot of the statements made here - small squads of Handgunners or Crossbowmen to guard artillery are a worthwhile investment in my mind (they stand in the way of front charges, they pick off some Wounds coming in, can charge the war machine hunter if they get too close), and they help fill out minimum Core, which can be a bit of a tricky thing to do sometimes. A L1 Fire Wizard can probably out-blast them with medium-version Fireball spam, but that cuts into the power dice you would spend on the big Wizard's spells and your Battle Prayers, it's not Core, and it doesn't have the other functions that having 10 bodies provides.
If they stand in the way of chargers, aren't they blocking line of sight of the canons?
If you want warmachine protectors then outriders are the way to go. 5 outriders are only 15pts more than 10 handgunners but you get more dmg, armour saves, horse combat attacks. You also get to re-position them in case your opponent had a sneaky set up. If you don't want outriders then the only other option is xbows because they have more range over outriders.
Again, regarding line of sight, where would you place the Outriders, to protect the canons?
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Just pivot and shoot the artillery in another direction. My favorite way to do this is by deploying artillery pieces at the corners of the board.
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Ehh... I am shocked. :Ohmy:
I agree with all what Rothgar written so far. Small units of XB and Handguns are worth it when used for the right task and against the right targets. And for all their firepower, Outriders are way more expensive and pretty much if all you want them to do is guard your warmachines.
Have a pint, Rothgar. :::cheers:::
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Ehh... I am shocked. :Ohmy:
I agree with all what Rothgar written so far. Small units of XB and Handguns are worth it when used for the right task and against the right targets. And for all their firepower, Outriders are way more expensive and pretty much if all you want them to do is guard your warmachines.
Have a pint, Rothgar. :::cheers:::
+1
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Much obliged, Mathi. *downs pint*
The thing is, Empire does have a need for an artillery guard that can do more than just sit there and wait for a war machine hunting unit to come close (because it might just run around you), and Crossbows/Handgunners fit the task perfectly. Sure, you can do it with Outriders, but Outriders can and should be off to bigger and better things elsewhere, and they don't count as Core. If you're like me, your army revolves around a big block of Halberds as your center, with 2 units of DGK's on the flanks. You're not bringing much else in the way of Core (an Archer unit to bunker your Wizard, maybe a couple of 5-man detachments to redirect), and thus the Handgunners/Crossbowmen fill a needed niche. I prefer gunners because I already know people will be coming toward my machines and the Armor Piercing helps against Fast Cav, though I reserve the right to change my mind and swap to Crossbows.
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I prefer gunners because I already know people will be coming toward my machines and the Armor Piercing helps against Fast Cav, though I reserve the right to change my mind and swap to Crossbows.
I would love to advise you to just go with the Crossbows because of their better range but I know once you do this you'll shoot at some fast cavalry, get 3 wounds on them and your opponent rolls a couple 6's for his armour save! It happens every time, and you'll be cursing that you took out the handgunners for the xbows. lol.
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I think I'm going to put 20 of each in a list and see what happens just for the fun of it. The Xbows and Handgunners with Banners and the Archers in a unit of 10 with 2 5 man Detachments.
I figure you can filth the rest of the list out and no one will complain right?
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I think I'm going to put 20 of each in a list and see what happens just for the fun of it. The Xbows and Handgunners with Banners and the Archers in a unit of 10 with 2 5 man Detachments.
I figure you can filth the rest of the list out and no one will complain right?
Well if its for fun why don't you up it to 30 in a unit with a warrior priest and a BSB and watch them shoot stuff and then win combat! heh heh.
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I think I'm going to put 20 of each in a list and see what happens just for the fun of it. The Xbows and Handgunners with Banners and the Archers in a unit of 10 with 2 5 man Detachments.
I figure you can filth the rest of the list out and no one will complain right?
Well if its for fun why don't you up it to 30 in a unit with a warrior priest and a BSB and watch them shoot stuff and then win combat! heh heh.
Sir, that is the whole enchilada for Empire Ballistic Skill shooting available for my Lists! Though I did just acquire 10 Huntsmen and am in the process of painting 10 more!
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Spam a bunch of level 1 fire wizzards and take the signature spell.
If you spam enough you'll roll some 6's for channeling.
I guarantee these wizzards will cause more kills than the crossbowmen or handgunners.
That's not a very good example, because you have a limited number of power dice, and so all those level 1 wizards are not only chewing up points, they're also chewing up power dice.
Not that I'm defending ranged troops, because they're overpriced, crossbows and handgunners could probably be cut by 2 points a model. But we should be fair in our comparisons.
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I'm new to Empire, but I think Crossbowmen and Handgunners would be too inexpensive at 7 points per model. If I remember correctly, one of those units was at 8 pts per model last edition, and that was fine by me. I only think 9 points is too much because they have BS3. This, combined with the -1 modifier for long range shots makes them often a terrible investment (this coming from my experience fighting against them.) I had a friend running lots of both xbows and gunners trying to do a long-range strategy: I think he would have fared better if our entire group didn't have T4 armies like Ogres, Orcs, Dwarves, and Warriors. And for t3 armies like undead and goblin-heavy lists, the enemy is too numerous for 9 point models with BS3 to be chopping into in the first place.
I'm going to build and paint units of both for my army, and field them because I think they make an Empire army feel complete. I don't think I'd use them competitively, and although I was against archers at first I keep hearing good things about their usefulness in screening and redirecting.
As for the original topic, in the debate between xbows and handguns, I've found myself flip-flopping all the time on it. I like xbows range, and I like the idea of an Empire Army having a regiment of them, but I also feel the handgunners would be just as valued by a general. This is all fluff talk, of course, though when it comes down to rules I'd run xbows against my one friend's orc army and handgunners versus my other friends' WoC and Dwarf armies. Against Elves - well, wounding on 3's outside of close combat would be an interesting concept, considering how much t4 I run into. I can't wait to have my army built so I can see how wrong I am on all my ideas!
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Spam a bunch of level 1 fire wizzards and take the signature spell.
If you spam enough you'll roll some 6's for channeling.
I guarantee these wizzards will cause more kills than the crossbowmen or handgunners.
That's not a very good example, because you have a limited number of power dice, and so all those level 1 wizards are not only chewing up points, they're also chewing up power dice.
Very good point often overlooked in mathhammer!
Furthermore, the fact that by using that single powerdice you still have to roll a 4+ with a range of 24". This I would say was comparable to a crossbowmans aim (30 vs 24 range, 5+ vs 4+ to hit at long range). A Lvl 1 is 65 points, which confers to 7 crossbow men. So its basicly 7 (average of 2d6) hits on a 4+ (casting) by magic vs. 7 hits on 4/5+ with better range (but not flamming) by crossbows.
In this aspect BS seems fair priced, and then you have to add that your wizard Lord have one less powerdice to make his 200 points worth of magic worth while. :::cheers:::
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Handgunners have a small advantage that many don't take note of.
If you've given the marksman a repeater pistol then suddenly every stand-and-shoot the unit make is resolved at the range of shortest range weapon. Suddenly your handguns are always firing at short range when stand-and-shooting.
Might not be much, but is extra sneaky
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Handgunners have a small advantage that many don't take note of.
If you've given the marksman a repeater pistol then suddenly every stand-and-shoot the unit make is resolved at the range of shortest range weapon. Suddenly your handguns are always firing at short range when stand-and-shooting.
Might not be much, but is extra sneaky
(I assume you mean brace of pistols, as the marksman cannot be equipped with a repeater pistol. )
Just remember that you are putting 24 points into that marksman (9 for standard trooper, 5 for brace and 10 for the marksman upgrade), and that model will most likely only shoot during the S&S due to the 12" range. So you're basicly paying 24 points or roughly the same as 3 handgunners for increasing the to hit chance by 1 on a S&S and 2 extra shots duing that S&S. If you use 'em in units of 10, that confers to 2-3 extra hits (including the 1 by the marksman) = 1-2 wounds vs T3 troops with 5+ armour save. Ofcourse this might just be enough to tricker the panic test, but in my opinion, it is only worth it when getting to fire on swordsmasters or other expensive-but-fragile units.
I'm not saying that it isn't worth it, just that you gotta be pretty damn sure you get to S&S a coupple of times for it to be worth it. I like to keep my BS shooters cheap and small as I see no clear benefit of larger units. Besides shooting, IMO they work better as speed bumps/redirectors than actually fighting units.
:smile2:
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yeah only time i take large units of shooters is with HE archers. they still have ASF, can take LA and volley fire. it aint great, but you gotta get the 25% somehow!
as for empire, i own 30 handgunners and 20 xbows but just cant see how taking 30 handgunners in one unit would be useful. deployed 15x2 they'll be really really wide, which will cause issues for deployment, and moving units will cause LoS issues for the shooters.
@ 10 wide they lose a rank of (expensive) shots but are more manageable in width and gain horde attacks.
any reforming means you dont shoot, which is kinda the point of the unit. i'm just not sure how you would use a static unit that large to good effect. a priest in the unit would boost it in combat significantly, but you'd need to get the ward and re-roll wound spells off which you just can't guarantee, especially if your opponent has a reasonable magic defense coupled with a modicum of common sense.
i really think the new book missed a few tricks for BS based shooting.
archers should have been given the option to rank _or_ skirmish and gunners/xbows given an expensive option to fire in three ranks (character/unit upgrade). it would have been so fluffy to have ranked units of handgunners "first rank fire!, second rank, fire!" lol
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A unit of 20 handguners will hold a corner against any light flanking forces, and will put a dent in any heavy knights to boot.
Well worth the points IMO - especially in larger games.
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It all depends on what you mean by "worth the points"
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It all depends on what you mean by "worth the points"
Indeed
These threads grow into absurdity as we do not define the task, and thereby the primary endpoint, by which we aim to evaluate efficacy by.
In my opinion the aim of BS shooting changed with the new edition. It is simply absurd to evaluate BS shooting vs points killed of horde models. Slightly exaggerated, it is like comparing a car by its ability to toast bread on the manifold.
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It all depends on what you mean by "worth the points"
Indeed
These threads grow into absurdity as we do not define the task, and thereby the primary endpoint, by which we aim to evaluate efficacy by.
In my opinion the aim of BS shooting changed with the new edition. It is simply absurd to evaluate BS shooting vs points killed of horde models. Slightly exaggerated, it is like comparing a car by its ability to toast bread on the manifold.
I can agree with this, it all stems from the "get their points back" mentality, which has little to nothing to do with how the game is designed.
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ok to clarify, what i mean is:
handgunners dont really make a good all-round unit for playing games of warhammer with.
they work better in my experience as smaller units, focussed purely on shooting.
to use a large block of them introduces problems with width (issues with deployment, line of sight relative to other models having to move etc) to maximise their shooting potential.
being wide hurts their combat ability (which is pretty meagre to start with), but being narrow impacts their shooting ability (which is expensive and niche, shooting is ultimately what you are taking them for. spears and halberds are much cheaper and fight better).
with penalties to firing due to movement (ie no firing at all) and the cost of character support to offset their meagre statistics and equipment, i dont see how they can be useful in large units.
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Quote "stuff about handgunners earning points through kills"
The roll of units changes with each edition. Previously they killed off a few guys from the enemy's ranks, and ranks is what won combat back then. In 8th edition BRB we have 2-3 ranks attacking, Hordes, Steadfast, etc... so the amount they need to kill to reduce enemy ranks to help the rest of the army is alot! Otherwise their 2nd duty is to kill off enemy flankers or smaller units.
Then 8th edition Army book came out and the points went up, not just for missile infantry but for pretty much everything else. And the amount of damage our missile units went slightly down because of the stand and shoot rule for detachments.
Xbows and Handgunners were borderline not very good in the old army book. Now their points increased and damage reduced - their role hasn't changed, they are needed to whittle down enemy hordes or take out small enemy flankers.
The whole question is Points vs Role. Not Points vs Kill
Does the amount of points for a missile unit justify the role they fulfill?
5 archers isn't going to kill anything. But their role isn't to kill, its too re-direct and they do it very well. Infantry hordes/busses need to hold in combat more than they need to kill, they still have to inflict a few wounds because that's what combat is all about. But if you want something dead you take cavalry like knights or demi-gryphs because when they charge their role is too kill stuff.
So do Handgunners, Crossbows, and Archers fulfill their roles? and what roles are those? I believe that is the question for this thread.
I've looked at the role that the OP wishes to use handgunners for(warmachine protectors) and it might work out, it might not. I'm interested to see the results in his future games.
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So do Handgunners, Crossbows, and Archers fulfill their roles? and what roles are those? I believe that is the question for this thread.
I've looked at the role that the OP wishes to use handgunners for(warmachine protectors) and it might work out, it might not. I'm interested to see the results in his future games.
i think you're right about the direction of the thread, role is more important than "getting their points back"
let me get the ball rolling then, here's how i personally see the roles of the shooters:
-crossbows, useful at thinning down enemy shooters due to their 30" range. will outrange shortbows, bows, handguns.
good at taking down flanking/harassment units (lightly armoured) like eagles due to range and S4 when set up with good fire lanes.
-handguns, useful at thinning down small units of well armoured elites due to S4 and AP, chaos warriors/brett knights etc. these elites will be advancing into combat, so range isnt as much of an issue. these also face competition from outriders, who benefit from vanguard and a 5+save but are not core.
-archers, useful as small detachments for re-directing. useful as a character bunker. useful as warmachine protectors (can move AND fire). useful in larger units for anchoring a flank in woodlands (stubborn in woods)
the roles for handgunners and crossbows are slightly overlapping, but niche enough that there is a distinct choice to be made if you are tailoring your list to a specific opponent.
i do not think they are particularly cost efficient, as a helblaster can put out more shots at a higher strength with AP and can pivot + fire.
as core options, 'gunners and xbows have some merit.
archers have a much more diverse application, a lower price per model and greater tactical flexibility on the field due to skirmishing, possibility of gaining stubborn and the ability to move and fire with free reforms.
the roles are all different, and will work well in certain army builds and against certain enemies.
i would suspect that in an all-comers force, core shooters will be limited to archer redirectors and hbvg's for the tougher stuff.
as for the OP, good luck with the handgunners. it might be worth considering a move + fire option like a hbvg or archers to protect your artillery, as many war machine hunters are fast cavalry/flyers/tunnelers/outflankers and can deploy or move outside of your firing arc.
let us know how you get on!