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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Topic started by: Martin123 on February 27, 2013, 10:57:41 AM
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Just thought i would share this..
https://twitter.com/Gas_Monkey82
pictures of the new deamon book...
135 points for a moving cannon which regains wounds....... hmmm think the empire cannons are a bit expensive....
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Well, according to Warseer, Khorne has always been mainly characterized by huge cannon, lasercannon, autocannon and Daemon cannon and then unfairly had to part with it until Dr. Suess, eh, Ward found that long-lost contraption. Some also believe Khorne had to get a cheap chariotcannon because 40k Berzerkers have pistols. YMTC...
Putting on my most optimistic hat, I think it would have been better for the game if someone had locked this Ward up in some remote Scottish dungeon.
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So now Dorfs, Skaven, Ogres, WoC, DoC, and chaos dorfs (? Not sure bout CD ) have better artillery than we Do. Fortunately our infantry is not overcosted.
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So now Dorfs, Skaven, Ogres, WoC, DoC, and chaos dorfs (? Not sure bout CD ) have better artillery than we Do. Fortunately our infantry is not overcosted.
Chaos Dorfs have better artillery, cheaper too.
The Shrieker Rocket can either be a 5" S3 Template Stone Thrower or a S8 D6 Multiwound Pinpoint (scatter dice as normal) for 100.
And their Flame Cannon unlike the Dorf Flame Cannon can shoot 24" + Artillery Dice and of course does Multi-wound Str 5....
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We should look at the bright side: The new Griffon-mounted flying multishot HE cannon with dragon armour will only be S9 and the Treeman-carried magic attacks ethereal ItP Wood Elf cannon is still WIP until 21st edition.
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and the Treeman-carried magic attacks ethereal ItP Wood Elf cannon is still WIP until 21st edition.
Sweet, there's hope for Wood Elves!
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Meh writing an army list for daemons is going to be extremely difficult. That Cannon might end up with no Inspiring Presence and no Hold Your Ground! Leaving it as a ld7 msu knight bait.
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Happily, none of these changes to Daemons will make any difference to me. I lose now...I'll lose in the future. No Big Deal. :dry:
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Unit rolls 12 for a break test, it dies. Genius, that's certainly fun for all.
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Unit rolls 12 for a break test, it dies. Genius, that's certainly fun for all.
Didn't Daemons simply disappear in 6th edition if they failed a leadership test?
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Sounds like a Honor Harrington novel. You know the game? Deploy forces. The side with HH wins the game on a roll of 2-6. On a 1, roll again.
That Cannon might end up with no Inspiring Presence and no Hold Your Ground! Leaving it as a ld7 msu knight bait.
Of course but that means people either wrote a sucky list (General/BSB with a different party line) or you managed to kill those types, which is no mean feat in itself.
Does it even have frenzy? If not, I don't see how it would be "msu knight bait" (I don't see how it could or why it would be bait for msu knights at all but I assume you meant it was easy to bait with msu knights?).
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A cannon with frenzy would be fantastic. Makes me want to get out my Blood Angels again.
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Too early to pass judgement, but I don't really like what I'm seeing so far with Daemons.
I know it's bad form to call OP early on, especially with how little experience I have, but they certainly are looking strong.
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It's funny to see the reactions to the rumours on warseer, It's either "135 point broke ass cannon, the game is ruined!", or "14 point bloodletters and random charts, time to shelf the daemons!". I'm very excited to see how the book shakes out on saturday.
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It's funny to see the reactions to the rumours on warseer, It's either "135 point broke ass cannon, the game is ruined!", or "14 point bloodletters and random charts, time to shelf the daemons!". I'm very excited to see how the book shakes out on saturday.
Yp. Reads like a topic full of whiners after a mainstream MMO patch.
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Doc Review
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=111718
Interesting that they cant take a scroll.... that means they are going get bummed by light magic...
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Doc Review
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=111718
Interesting that they cant take a scroll.... that means they are going get bummed by light magic...
I think that just means that they can't take a Daemon version of the dispel scroll but they still have access to the rulebook dispel scroll don't they?
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Doc Review
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=111718
Interesting that they cant take a scroll.... that means they are going get bummed by light magic...
I think that just means that they can't take a Daemon version of the dispel scroll but they still have access to the rulebook dispel scroll don't they?
They take demonic gifts, which aren't magic items. So, the Brb magic items are off limits to them...unless that is changed with this new book.
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They have access to magic weapons if they buy demonic gifts. There are three tables: Exalted, Greater, and Lesser. You buy a roll on the list of gifts, or you can take the option to get a magic weapon from the BRB, or choose a god-specific weapon from a list they give for that level of roll.
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That is right. The only items from BRB they have access to are weapons. And magic standards up to 25 points for BSB only.
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It is looking like my army with Waralter + lvl4 light and lvl1 light mages just got better!
Also Plague bearers as the "best" mainline troops also works in our favour.
Throw in some halberds-chuck on ws10/i10...have hurricanum and waralter (or WPriest in unit) in tow = still hitting on 3's re-rolling vs a unit that isnt going to do much back.
Demigryphs now can go rofl stomp stuff better. The nurgleflies are the first banishment targets then demigryphs to the face.
OUR KNIGHTS CAN ACTUALLY CHARGE IN AND NOT GET KB'ED BEFORE THEY STRIKE.
I dont see many downsides for the Empire unless we get korn cannoned off the board...
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Yep. Daemons had problems with 1+ AS armies which now became even worst for them. I expect their new Skull cannon will get 0-1 comped everywhere around here.
Still their characters are nasty and with some luck can win the game alone. And does anybody know if Master of Sorcery gift is still there? Choosing Metal lore on Herald just became an even more viable option.
edit: found out they don't have Master of Sorcery gift anymore :)
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-No master of sorcery
-No dispel scroll
- Tzeenth heralds can only choose lore of Tzeentch. Lore of Metal not an option.
They got hit hard in the magic phase.
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So the prevailing view is NOT that the sky is falling? Good show.
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So the prevailing view is NOT that the sky is falling? Good show.
Well until we find out the Cannon/Chariot/Heal wounds on Impact hits turns out to be like 140 points or something silly. :icon_twisted:
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Cheaper than that :P
I know this is Fantasy but I've got the 40k version and it seems decent, hopefully Ward didn't blow his load with the Fantasy version but it looks ok.
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Got the book this morning. Will take some questions.
First thoughts: A huge revamp in some respects, in others not but certainly a different kind of army, probably what the designers had wanted when they first released the DoC book. With that said, it looks like mono armies are encouraged over mixing and matching but it's okay because of the large number of unit selections for each respective god. However, internal balance seems to suffer some, more on that later.
-Instability is as rumored, with Insane Courage resulting in ridiculous and Double Six making things go poof and then taking wounds limited by what you rolled for your ld test. Also, lores are the same as WoC but attributes allow you to regain models. Kinda cool if you compare that to how VC can lose massive numbers but also regain massive numbers.
-Gifts, while random, are very neat but also depend on which god you are rolling for. Khorne has awesome default options while Tzeentch and Slaanesh are kinda meh. Hellforged Aretefacts are interesting, some more obviously worth it, some are more of a gamble.
-Nurgle is a definite winner. I expect mono Nurgle to be very tournament worthy with pretty much every option well priced and with obvious synergy. That being said, Epidemus is INSANE! His tally was changed so that now it goes:
7+ Nurgle Daemons +1 s
14+ Nurgle Daemons +1 t
21+ Nurgle Daemons KB
28+ Nurgle Daemons re-roll failed ward
His price increased by half and he lost a point of toughness but has twice the wounds. A great tradeoff imo.
-Khorne cannon is as feared. Stupidly priced, worse than the hydra. Must be making up of the severe beating they gave Khorne options.
I'm glad that I am taking Walter w/ 2 light wizards now, seems like combat with them will be tough.
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Is it true that there are no options for a Dispel Scroll of any kind? Because if so I think that Nurgle will get curbed by people blasting them with Purple Sun over and over again.
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Is it true that there are no options for a Dispel Scroll of any kind? Because if so I think that Nurgle will get curbed by people blasting them with Purple Sun over and over again.
Yes it is true. But I feel like there are many ways to counter this "old hat" trick. There is an exalted gift that allows an an additional free dice for each dispel attempt and the model with this gift doesn't have to be the the one dispelling either! If the wizard is trying to creep up the flanks, furies (which can be aligned with any of the gods now) and nurglings (which have scout) can easily stop them.
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Furies can stop him if it's an Empire Wizard, but not if it's a Daemon Prince or something similar. And a P-Sun straight at someone's face is pretty damaging too. And they have (a) choose to roll on the Exalted Gift table, (b) roll that gift.
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I havn't seen the book yet, but my brother got the digital copy today. He plays Deamons for 40k AND fantasy. Overall he shares Jakehunter's thoughts: improvement over all with some drawbacks. My brother always played mono army of Khorne so he is okay with the changes. He loves the new cannon rules but hates the model. I suggested he gets a WoC chariot and puts bloodletters on it instead and put the cannon somewhere. He's going to read over the rules and then we will have a 2500 point battle together vs my Empire. I may try my first battle report for the forums.
Ambrose
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after just being defeated by a mono khorne WoC list (tank blew up, DP regrew all his wounds with soulfeed, failed 7/11 3+ saves on my knights, watched him irresistable the Warshrine spell 3x rolling 2,2,1 buffs :eusa_wall: )
I am hoping that Daemon Khorne isnt as scary when the dice are in their favor.. At least i hope my opponent tomorrow will go for khorne.. i do NOT want to fight an epidimius list...
overall though, i would say good book, with an option to revise my opinion after the next game :icon_wink:
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Got my first game in against the new Deamons last night, here are a few thoughts.
-The RoC chart is not a huge deal. The only time it mattered was late in the game when he got +1 to all his ward saves...which is HUGE.
-The cannons are pretty ridiculous. They are way under-costed for what they do, expect to see them a lot.
-Greater deamons are still awesome. My buddy had a keeper, level 4 shadow with the sword that adds d3 WS, S, A, and I for each round of combat. I got him down to his last wound, but not until he ate a ton of my army.
-Out of the core troops, Plaguebearers are the big winners. -1 to hit is just brutal, combine that with t4 and possible regen and you have one of the best anvil units in the game. Bloodletters are kinda crud for their point increase, deamonettes are situational, and I didn't get to play against any horrors.
-The lack of a dispel scroll really hurts the army. Feel free to punish them hard in the magic phase, because combat with them is not so fun.
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After reading over the book, I have to say this:
Why would anyone want to play this army? Could it possibly get more random or complicated?
It takes long enough to set up a game to play, now we have to wait for the Daemon player to sit there and roll up his gifts randomly for each character? I can see Daemon players bringing a secretary with them to keep track of all the random stuff that happens every turn! Oh, you just created a whole squadron of Furies? Oh, you need to go out to your car to get them? No, that's OK, I'll wait, I mean, we were supposed to start at 12:00, but it took you a good 1/2 hour to figure out and write down all the random stuff your characters got at the binging of the game, so, no, go ahead, take your time.
A shame, some of the new models look decent, but there is no way I'd even begin to play this headache of an army.
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My experience is that if you're on top of the BRB rules to begin with, the Daemons book won't add much time to it all. I played 3 games at 2500 against Daemons in less than 6 hours (though we did call one of those early).
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I think making up cards with various powers on and stacking them in appropriate piles by the side of the table would save time - roll the gifts, then get the cards out and stack them on a larger card with the name of the model on there. As for extra units of models, I think a fair house-rule would be "If it isn't in the cases you have at the table with you, it doesn't get on the board" if the problem of going to the car / house / buying new models and quickly painting them up was prevelant.
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Well DoC is a general bleh for me. I'm already not a big fan of daemons having a completely independent list and this one does little to assuage that. Random items really take away from the modelling end of the hobby or in fact that many players like to have some sort of attachment to the models they putting on the table, besides some of us remember how well random generation for the sake of fluff went in the past (Intrigue at Court anyone). Reign of Chaos, ideally as it is now and not altered with a FAQ, is better suited to a Storm of Magic scenario rather than every damned game with daemons.
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What you're saying is that you would like predictibily and order with your Chaos? :)
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What you're saying is that you would like predictibily and order with your Chaos? :)
To a degree yes, I mean folks defending this 'random item' nonsense from a fluff stand point are really missing the point on where the chaos is and isn't. Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons are demi-gods with names and long histories and some even have mortal worshipers. They have a set appearance and equipment that has defined them when they make an appearance on the mortal plain. Random generation is for coming up with a random encounter type RPG foe not for designing an army around.
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What you're saying is that you would like predictibily and order with your Chaos? :)
To a degree yes, I mean folks defending this 'random item' nonsense from a fluff stand point are really missing the point on where the chaos is and isn't. Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons are demi-gods with names and long histories and some even have mortal worshipers. They have a set appearance and equipment that has defined them when they make an appearance on the mortal plain. Random generation is for coming up with a random encounter type RPG foe not for designing an army around.
H'rumph!
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H'rumph! (https://images.encyclopediadramatica.se/thumb/0/07/Harrumph.png/180px-Harrumph.png)
If your going to do it do it right :wink:
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H'rumph! (https://images.encyclopediadramatica.se/thumb/0/07/Harrumph.png/180px-Harrumph.png)
If your going to do it do it right :wink:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN99jshaQbY
You watch your ass!
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What you're saying is that you would like predictibily and order with your Chaos? :)
You mean like it was the last years? Sure, if it leads to a better game, why not? Not that I even play Daemons but with the same reasoning they could have introduced a rule for the Empire. Political friction; on a 6 the unit is withdrawn from battle on the order of its liege lord at odds with the resident General/Elector Count/Marshal/Earl commanding this force.
Note that I don't think that WoM roll will affect the game all that much, and Daemons are still pretty strong. Couple of units of BoN with regen, ward, 4+ poison, Epidemius for S5 T6, two Cannon, PB horde for core...ouch.
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I mean folks defending this 'random item' nonsense from a fluff stand point are really missing the point on where the chaos is and isn't. Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons are demi-gods with names and long histories and some even have mortal worshipers. They have a set appearance and equipment that has defined them when they make an appearance on the mortal plain.
I'd argue that might not be the case - how would you know? Seriously - Lord Spleenslicer the Bloodthirster might be worshipped under that name by a block of Chaos Warriors, but a primitive tribe might simply know him as "The Slaughterer".
The ethos of Chaos is, well, chaos - and, perhaps more importantly, the idea that the Chaos powers have a view which is radically different from mortal's. So Lord W'therfate might turn up as Crystalord or The Great Gamesman or The Prince of Unending Confusion for reasons no mortal understands.
Similarly, who says Lord W'therfate turns up at all? Maybe someone else comes - because the gods are, well, gods. They are capricious little buggers.
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What the missifire chart for the most undercosted thing in warhammer?
whats this about it been able to teleport if it missfires
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I'd argue that might not be the case - how would you know? Seriously - Lord Spleenslicer the Bloodthirster might be worshipped under that name by a block of Chaos Warriors, but a primitive tribe might simply know him as "The Slaughterer".
The ethos of Chaos is, well, chaos - and, perhaps more importantly, the idea that the Chaos powers have a view which is radically different from mortal's. So Lord W'therfate might turn up as Crystalord or The Great Gamesman or The Prince of Unending Confusion for reasons no mortal understands.
Similarly, who says Lord W'therfate turns up at all? Maybe someone else comes - because the gods are, well, gods. They are capricious little buggers.
Yes all very well and true but if you are going to use this line of thought should not the generation of the entire Daemonic army be random then and truly chaotic, logistics be damned?
Making the army selection phase 'chaotic' is just dumb. If you did it on a grander scale to be completely accurate it would be a nightmare to figure out what troops end up on the table. Sure you can say maybe the certain Daemon lord doesn't show up but that defies the spirit of the BRB statement that the general is 'your physical avatar upon the battlefield'. You are supposed to have some sort of attachment to the characters you bring and many folks in the past have taken the time to model various gifts on their daemons because of this, making it random is only vaguely thematic and not in a very good way. High Elves don't have Intrigue at Court anymore for a reason.
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Yes all very well and true but if you are going to use this line of thought should not the generation of the entire Daemonic army be random then and truly chaotic, logistics be damned?
Buried somewhere in my posts on this site is an argument for basically just that. Not random, but Chaotic - basically, taking models from a list at whim and paying the points per model and being able to organize them however.
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I'd argue that might not be the case - how would you know? Seriously - Lord Spleenslicer the Bloodthirster might be worshipped under that name by a block of Chaos Warriors, but a primitive tribe might simply know him as "The Slaughterer".
The ethos of Chaos is, well, chaos - and, perhaps more importantly, the idea that the Chaos powers have a view which is radically different from mortal's. So Lord W'therfate might turn up as Crystalord or The Great Gamesman or The Prince of Unending Confusion for reasons no mortal understands.
Similarly, who says Lord W'therfate turns up at all? Maybe someone else comes - because the gods are, well, gods. They are capricious little buggers.
Yes all very well and true but if you are going to use this line of thought should not the generation of the entire Daemonic army be random then and truly chaotic, logistics be damned?
Making the army selection phase 'chaotic' is just dumb. If you did it on a grander scale to be completely accurate it would be a nightmare to figure out what troops end up on the table. Sure you can say maybe the certain Daemon lord doesn't show up but that defies the spirit of the BRB statement that the general is 'your physical avatar upon the battlefield'. You are supposed to have some sort of attachment to the characters you bring and many folks in the past have taken the time to model various gifts on their daemons because of this, making it random is only vaguely thematic and not in a very good way. High Elves don't have Intrigue at Court anymore for a reason.
Please don't compare intrigue at court to rolling for items. Its disingenuous at best. Your level 1 scroll caddy all of a sudden being the army general, is not the same as a rolling a d6 for a selection of great items, and if you don't want what your rolled defaulting to the signature item.
To be honest I like the reign of chaos table, it makes the games a lot more cinematic, and its something for both players to think about during the game. Anything that makes games more dynamic and less an exercise in simple arithmetic at game time is a bonus for me. Basically once your a decent player game 1, and 2 at events are generally boring/unfun as hell as you try and take max points of people who aren't as good as you.
Having to make choices during the game based on changing circumstances just seems so much more challenging and that really excites me.
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For DoC, i have only one answer: Banishment, Banishment, Banishment. Banishment Banishment, Banishmant! WA, lvl 4 wiz on chariot of light, and about 3 lvl 2 light wizards and possibly 2 lvl 1 wizards. 2 chariots of +1 to dice, and pew pew! Oh, and few cannons. To take down their cannons.
3k armies Empire style!