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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Topic started by: pistolpadds on March 01, 2013, 02:12:30 PM
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hey guys. just want this cleared up once and for all do cannons need LOS to the point where they aim? ive seen people have cannons behind their lines and still shoot over their own infantry.
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"Nominate a point within the war machine's line of sight...[y]our target does not have to be an enemy model; it can be a point on the ground if you wish."
p. 112.
Note that TLOS is a stupid rule.
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hey guys. just want this cleared up once and for all do cannons need LOS to the point where they aim? ive seen people have cannons behind their lines and still shoot over their own infantry.
Sure they do. And when they pull out a laser pointer and try to shine it between their Swordsmen's legs just pack up your stuff and go home.
If someone deploys behind huge Hordes without fire lanes or elevation you know you're in for an argument before you roll a single dice. I'd start that argument then.
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thats why i figured it would be good to magnatize my cannon to switch to mortors. if there is no way to get a clear LOS or higher ground simply slap on your mortors and keep them safely behind the lines! stick a engineer back there an all.
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thats why i figured it would be good to magnatize my cannon to switch to mortors. if there is no way to get a clear LOS or higher ground simply slap on your mortors and keep them safely behind the lines! stick a engineer back there an all.
Love that idea. Except for the Mortar part :icon_confused:
Thread derail: Why not a Rocket Battery? Small S3 template = Large S2 template in wounds (usually) and you could get up to 3 templates, granted all will be indirect....
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Sure they do. And when they pull out a laser pointer and try to shine it between their Swordsmen's legs just pack up your stuff and go home.
And if someone tells me I can't shoot their Giant because I can't see the spot of ground 6" in front of him because my swordsmen are in the way, we should likewise see it as a problem.
Our group tends to require you to have LoS to your target and discourages gamesmanship. If you can see the giant, you can shoot a few inches in front of it to hit it. You can't use the giant as a target point for the Orc Warboss standing behind him (and out of LoS) and you can't target the front edge of a hill to catch the Anvil of Doom sitting on the other side of the hill (and out of LoS).
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Note that TLOS is a stupid rule.
YES. :icon_mad:
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I personally and again people in are gaming group,
give yourself firing lanes, i think it is dam right stupid to think that a cannon 1 inch behind a horde of halberdiers, or a block of knights can shoot at a target on the opposite side of the board....
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Not more stupid than handgunners standing 1 inch behind a horde of halberdiers, or a block of knights and firing through them.
Note that TLOS is a stupid rule.
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Not more stupid than handgunners standing 1 inch behind a horde of halberdiers, or a block of knights and firing through them.
Note that TLOS is a stupid rule.
i dont do that either as again its stupid,
and if by missplacent there does end a friendly unit between me and the target unit, i take a -2 modifier for shooting through hard cover. so for a cannon you could add a rule, that is a cannon is blocked by a unit it has to roll a 5+ before it can shoot.
"Nominate a point within the war machine's line of sight...[y]our target does not have to be an enemy model; it can be a point on the ground if you wish."
p. 112.
Note that TLOS is a stupid rule.
i also like to add in SOME circumstances TLOS is a stupid rule, however in certain circumstances i think it is a good rule
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Note that TLOS is a stupid rule.
YES. :icon_mad:
I disagree. In 40k its stupid. Fantasy has very little shooting so being able to shoot through everything isn't a big deal. Its only a big deal if your used to playing with older editions where cannons were not 120pts and only shot once per game and the rest of the army was balanced around not having line of sight to everything.
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how does everyone keep their cannons safe then if there is no hill. lets say there is a nice juicy target you want to shoot a cannon ball through and you cannot deploy oposite it for some reason.
or
you want to shoot at a mortis engine that is behind a horde of zombies can you still aim 10 inches from the back of the mortis engine (zombie head in the middle of horde)
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you want to shoot at a mortis engine that is behind a horde of zombies can you still aim 10 inches from the back of the mortis engine (zombie head in the middle of horde)
That's a bit cheesy, if you can see the model technically you should just target the model.
Though you really better be able to see the model, per rules on page 10, seeing a piece of it is a no no. Some might argue if you can't see the base you shouldn't be able to target it. I'd default to seeing a majority of the model.
Personally picking the middle Zombie out of a Horde and declaring you see a majority of the fig......
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Note that TLOS is a stupid rule.
YES. :icon_mad:
I disagree. In 40k its stupid. Fantasy has very little shooting so being able to shoot through everything isn't a big deal. Its only a big deal if your used to playing with older editions where cannons were not 120pts and only shot once per game and the rest of the army was balanced around not having line of sight to everything.
I guess I should explain my position a bit further. BTW I'm not trying to convert you to my way of thinking. If you feel TLOS is fine, then so be it. I'll be the first to say that the 8ed. rules are the most fun version of Warhammer that I have ever played.
My problem with TLOS stems from my background playing historical miniature wargames where each figure really represents mutliple individuals. So a unit of 20 figures is really 400 men. In that situation it is unreasonable to assume that an artillery piece will have a clear line of sight through a formed body of troops.
What TLOS does to Warhammer is remove that scale effect. It essentially forces you to play the game on a 1:1 scale. That unit of 10 archers in skirmish formation isn't really 100 men screening a portion of an army, it's just 10 guys, and there are gaps between them that you can shoot through.
To me that removes some of the fantasy of the game. :icon_frown:
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hey guys. just want this cleared up once and for all do cannons need LOS to the point where they aim? ive seen people have cannons behind their lines and still shoot over their own infantry.
Sure they do. And when they pull out a laser pointer and try to shine it between their Swordsmen's legs just pack up your stuff and go home.
If someone deploys behind huge Hordes without fire lanes or elevation you know you're in for an argument before you roll a single dice. I'd start that argument then.
No. You are completely in the wrong here. If a line can be drawn to the target point you can shoot at it. The rules can't be clearer or simpler. In fact, GW should sell laser pointers as they are a fantastic wargaming tool.
The "argument" would be completely caused by you in this case. The rules, and their intent, id pretty damn clear.
If you want to play with house rules about LoS that is absolutely fine, but creating an argument over someone follow something explicitly stated in the rules makes you the bad guy in the situation. :)
Theo
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hey guys. just want this cleared up once and for all do cannons need LOS to the point where they aim? ive seen people have cannons behind their lines and still shoot over their own infantry.
Sure they do. And when they pull out a laser pointer and try to shine it between their Swordsmen's legs just pack up your stuff and go home.
If someone deploys behind huge Hordes without fire lanes or elevation you know you're in for an argument before you roll a single dice. I'd start that argument then.
No. You are completely in the wrong here. If a line can be drawn to the target point you can shoot at it. The rules can't be clearer or simpler. In fact, GW should sell laser pointers as they are a fantastic wargaming tool.
The "argument" would be completely caused by you in this case. The rules, and their intent, id pretty damn clear.
If you want to play with house rules about LoS that is absolutely fine, but creating an argument over someone follow something explicitly stated in the rules makes you the bad guy in the situation. :)
Theo
Well, sorry but I'm with Noght here. It might even be written in the rules, but if someone says that firing a cannon through the legs, feathers and heads of a unit of ranked up infantry is perfectly viable, then you're probably going to face some arguments.
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you want to shoot at a mortis engine that is behind a horde of zombies can you still aim 10 inches from the back of the mortis engine (zombie head in the middle of horde)
That's a bit cheesy, if you can see the model technically you should just target the model.
Though you really better be able to see the model, per rules on page 10, seeing a piece of it is a no no. Some might argue if you can't see the base you shouldn't be able to target it. I'd default to seeing a majority of the model.
Personally picking the middle Zombie out of a Horde and declaring you see a majority of the fig......
your right it is abit cheesy/gamey but thats how people use cannons where i play. How would you target the mortis engine in this situation would you aim at the front of his base (provided you can see it) or the middle of it. Now i tend to play for fun in tournements but alot of people play to win and i cant see how they would take something out with a cannon without aiming slightly infront and hoping for a decent bounce.
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you want to shoot at a mortis engine that is behind a horde of zombies can you still aim 10 inches from the back of the mortis engine (zombie head in the middle of horde)
That's a bit cheesy, if you can see the model technically you should just target the model.
Though you really better be able to see the model, per rules on page 10, seeing a piece of it is a no no. Some might argue if you can't see the base you shouldn't be able to target it. I'd default to seeing a majority of the model.
Personally picking the middle Zombie out of a Horde and declaring you see a majority of the fig......
your right it is abit cheesy/gamey but thats how people use cannons where i play. How would you target the mortis engine in this situation would you aim at the front of his base (provided you can see it) or the middle of it. Now i tend to play for fun in tournements but alot of people play to win and i cant see how they would take something out with a cannon without aiming slightly infront and hoping for a decent bounce.
Agreed. You'd think the TLoS plus no longer guessing ranges would be enough. Now we see Battle Reps where Cannons are shooting through Hordes of Dwarves, hitting a spot in front of a hill and bouncing into an unseen model on the backside of a hill.
Color me skeptical.
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Depends on which LoS they use. Some people use SLoS (Simple Line of Sight) or VLoS (Virutal Line of Sight) or a combination of those two. But "Overguessing" (as ETC calls it) is usually not allowed and is considered a bad play. Overguessing is targeting a point on the hill for hitting a monster behind the hill.
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That seems already a deviation from the BRB. p. 10:
For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace an unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the body (i.e. the head, torso, arms or legs) of the target?
Could it be because "TLOS is a stupid rule"?
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As the Great Cannon is a model representing a real cannon and crew, I believe you should be able to 'imagine' or allow for a degree of trajectory in the cannon's shot, allowing it to fire at larger targets in the distance aka over walls, hedges, troops on lower ground or through enemy troops and so forth.
With the 2 additional dice rolls being representative of the unpredictability of aiming a cannonball, the main idea being that the target; say a giant in full view but far away, is what the crew are aiming at. Yet the placement of the first marker is a representation of the combination of the amount of powder, muzzle trajectory and wind etc. factored by the crew to hit their original target the giant. In reality the crew of a cannon wouldn't be thinking 'Okay if we aim at that orc in the third row of that unit we might get a good bounce and take the giant's legs out, as long as we don't put too much powder in, in that case we dont really want a large bounce'; they'd be trying to range in a shot on their target by seeing their results of probably their first and second shots. If shots fired by a cannon hit interveening enemy troops along the way I see no problem, they are the enemy after all.
However, I do believe firing through or over your own troops at any range is rather out of hand (for an empire army anyway) as is shooting troops that are out of the cannon crew's line of sight behind terrain etc. Ultimately a cannon is a long range anti personnel weapon designed to plough through large formations of troops, usually deployed in batteries in the centre or in between formations of troops. Showing that they didn't have the capibilty to fire over large formations of friendly troops. Howitzers/Mortars on the other hand are perfectly capable of firing over their own troops.
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Agreed. You'd think the TLoS plus no longer guessing ranges would be enough. Now we see Battle Reps where Cannons are shooting through Hordes of Dwarves, hitting a spot in front of a hill and bouncing into an unseen model on the backside of a hill.
That's why TLOS is a stupid ass rule.
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how does everyone keep their cannons safe then if there is no hill.
How does a hill increase a cannon's safety?
Safety is a fleeting quality. I treat them as expendable.
you want to shoot at a mortis engine that is behind a horde of zombies can you still aim 10 inches from the back of the mortis engine (zombie head in the middle of horde)
"Nominate a point within the war machine's line of sight...[y]our target does not have to be an enemy model"...but it can, despite all the fuss. It's not as if you're always shooting at knee height through a bunch of legs and tails and other body partsdangling between those Zombies' legs.
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hill increases saftey as you can have units in front of it not blocking the cannons LOS. wheras if you have it on the ground between units its easy for an enemy to charge it. although y doing so they are leaving your combat blocks alone but when facing agains things like terrorgheists and mortis engines/monsters then a cannon is only expendable after doing major damage or killing the things outright
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Okay, but you cannot plan for that. I haven't had a hill in my DZ for like 2011. Whatever you pay for a unit to "guard" the cannon can be invested in a second or third or go towards a STank, and it's so difficult to protect it's not worth it. Now you can of course use the units you buy anyways and put it right between and half an inch back. I don't think there's a lot that would fit through such a 3" gap, at least not a ranked unit. Even single-file cavalry/harpies/skirmishers could now have a much harder time to kill it and you have pretty good LoS. Those units could even move back an inch if you really need to see a spot.
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I think it's perfectly reasonable to fire "through" your own troops. I assumed the new rules were written to reflect the fact that cannon barrels can be elevated. As for targeting the middle of a horde in hopes of bouncing the cannonball through a model behind it, this is also reasonable. A cannon is not a straight shot weapon, historically and in the game most of it's lethality comes from the bounce. Why wouldn't a cannon crew try to maximise the effectiveness of the bounce?
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I think it's perfectly reasonable to fire "through" your own troops.
I think it's perfectly reasonable also, however, how do you "see" your target if you are a Cannonneer standing behind a Horde of Troops. I get that you shoot over, I don't get how you "see" to shoot.
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I think it's perfectly reasonable to fire "through" your own troops.
I think it's perfectly reasonable also, however, how do you "see" your target if you are a Cannonneer standing behind a Horde of Troops. I get that you shoot over, I don't get how you "see" to shoot.
Scouts/Runners telling you the position of enemy troops. This isn't real, it's a game.
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Scouts/Runners telling you the position of enemy troops.
If that's the case (and I don't challenge it) then why require any kind of LOS? It is not at if one is saying "I know there is an enemy there because of scouts - so I fire the cannon ball X distance over the heads of my men with elevation". Rather, the rules require one to see through models' gaps.
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I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know a lot about tactics during the Amercian Civil War and during that period friendly artillery firing over the heads of infantry was a rarity, usually only occuring if the artillery occupied an elevated position behind the infantry (see Fredricksburg). The reason, of course, was the risk of friendly casualties.
I can only imagine that artillery from earlier periods was less accurate, and even more unlikely to try and fire over friendly troops.
So, if you are trying to explain "why" TLOS allows artillery to fire through a horde of halberdiers in Warhammer, and you claim that they are actually firing over the infantry....I just don't buy it.
But this is fantasy, and anything goes.... :icon_wink:
My two cents
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People getting mixed up between real life and warhammer again. :D.
If my opponent shot his cannon through a unit of his own. i would have no quarels about going right 10 inches from the back of the cannon base then.. and if he goes you cant see that point, i be like well if you go under his right leg, over his hat, around his gun i can see you :).
My Friend has a came up with quite a funny way to stop doing this....
he has built walls in all of his units ( as his theme they are battling in ruins ). so if someone try's to pull the trick they are shooting behind his own troops, he is like well you cant shoot through my unit there is a wall in the way :)
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I
he has built walls in all of his units ( as his theme they are battling in ruins ). so if someone try's to pull the trick they are shooting behind his own troops, he is like well you cant shoot through my unit there is a wall in the way :)
Does he also claim hard cover for all his troops? :P
Banners and wings don't count for LOS, why should his walls? It's not creative basing at that stage, it's blatant cheating. I might as well play with empty bases and claim my orcs are invisible.
Theo
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I think it's perfectly reasonable also, however, how do you "see" your target if you are a Cannonneer standing behind a Horde of Troops. I get that you shoot over, I don't get how you "see" to shoot.
True. Everyone who has ever tried to see something level with him through a couple of "ranks" of a crowd will share your opinion. However, those guys in the regiment might just as well not stand shoulder to shoulder. Even in historical formations, be it a legion or a tercio, individuals needed room to use their weapons and shields, their were aisles for arquebusiers to retreat and so on. That wouldn't be nearly enough if the unit was appropriately deep but it is not such a stretch to assume that checking player's LoS is just a testing to see if it is too deep or not. In fact, it is even less conceivable for handgunners who shoot more "linear" (not completely but still) than a cannon to shoot through/over their own...not that it is a good idea at 9 points and -2 to hit to start with.
So, if you are trying to explain "why" TLOS allows artillery to fire through a horde of halberdiers in Warhammer, and you claim that they are actually firing over the infantry....I just don't buy it.
The real reason is probably just the one they put forth: Ease of play. Now admittedly it IS somewhat ironic that many find it such a hassle but there you go.
If my opponent shot his cannon through a unit of his own. i would have no quarels about going right 10 inches from the back of the cannon base then.. and if he goes you cant see that point, i be like well if you go under his right leg, over his hat, around his gun i can see you :).
Well, LoS is a straight line and doesn't go in circles or around edges. Your point stands that it usually goes both ways.
he has built walls in all of his units ( as his theme they are battling in ruins ). so if someone try's to pull the trick they are shooting behind his own troops, he is like well you cant shoot through my unit there is a wall in the way :)
What trick? The wall and everything else on his base is part of the unit/model. He has to use one point, say, the tip of the barrel from which to draw LoS and not change it over the course of the game, so if he can see from there, you should be able to see this point. Of course it might not matter if he's shooting at a Dragon - the beast cannot shoot back.
Your buddy is modelling for an advantage, which is tantamount to cheating. Tell him that in no uncertain terms. I'm sure someone will post the picture of that Engineer with the telescopic Hochland here in the near future...
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Or the Tunneling Tyranids.
Theo
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about my buddy with the walls,
he only ever uses it for his advantage, when people are saying i can shoot this cannon through the legs of these 2 unit of 40 halberdiers, then through my unit of knights, then right bang on target.
if you dont play like a dork, neither does he.. It is never played as a wall in are games, due to the fact i give myself firing lines for my cannons