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Galactic Conflict & Historical Games ... => Warhammer 40k Discussion => Topic started by: Shadowlord on September 17, 2013, 10:55:37 AM
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... Know death metal and ear plugs are the only way to go.
This is the umpteenth time I have decided to start with my nr 1 40K army of all time, Abaddon and his misfits, the Black Legion. With their own supportive pseudo codex out, and a lot of delicious fluff, I have whipped myself into getting at least some kind of army going. At first I decided I wouldn't get any tanks because I hate painting those, but after painting my First Forgefiend I have reconsidered and will be bringing quite a few of these suckaz to the army (compared to the Field they are easy to paint).
I will try to keep an army that is diverse and can face any threat on the table and I sorta like the special rules you get with Veterans of the Long War and Chosen as troops (Abaddon's terminators are too expensive for my army style; cheap and plenty of loyalist hating scum bags). The items in the artifact section is also sweet, especially the skull which brings Eternal Warrior to your Warlord.
This army will be 100% plastic so while I love Oblits and Mutils they will not be present in my army, and all characters will be either converted or made from available plastic kits. I was able to retrieve two of my old models from a friend who kept them, do not know why, and made a few modifications for them to better fit my theme. The Daemon Prince has no wings and will not be a regular HQ because while it makes more sense to have a mark from a specific God, the marks are something I am keeping out of the army as much as I can. The Daemon Prince is a model to be used when you roll it on the Chaos Boon Table.
First is the Warlord and Chaos Lord for the army. I had a combi bolter and a Daemon Sword on him before, but with the Skull of Ker'ngar available he has changed his weapons to a combi melta and power fist. First pic shows the melee wpn change, and the second both changed.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee48/SL-PN/Black%20Legion/d9092357-b6b0-4683-847e-2a8888bfb2f5_zpsc1342cad.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/SL-PN/media/Black%20Legion/d9092357-b6b0-4683-847e-2a8888bfb2f5_zpsc1342cad.jpg.html)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee48/SL-PN/Black%20Legion/image_zpscb9afcb3.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/SL-PN/media/Black%20Legion/image_zpscb9afcb3.jpg.html)
Here is the "look dad, I grew big" Daemon Prince:
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee48/SL-PN/Black%20Legion/image_zpscfc52048.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/SL-PN/media/Black%20Legion/image_zpscfc52048.jpg.html)
And finally my painting nemesis that almost broke me, the Forge Fiend (I quiver in fear about painting the Heldrakes):
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee48/SL-PN/Black%20Legion/image_zps4f4f759c.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/SL-PN/media/Black%20Legion/image_zps4f4f759c.jpg.html)
I have also built a Land Raider and is working on ten terminators.
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Excellent work!
I like the gun-beast-thing.
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I like all those models, but the paintwork on the daemon prince is gorgeous. :-D
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The Forgefiend/Maulerfiend is my favourite Chaos model, and yours looks sweet.
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The Forgefiend/Maulerfiend is my favourite Chaos model, and yours looks sweet.
I think the Forgefiend/Maulerfiend model looks completely out of place in the chaos range though.
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Just have to agree to disagree I guess. I think the armour plates help it fit in, and the precedent of Possessed/new Helbrute/Soulgrinder/Obliterators in mixing flesh and steel mean it's not a new concept really.
I save my hate for the Heldrake - ridiculous looking. When I pick up Chaos again, I'm going to take the awesome Forgeworld Chaos flyer - I know it's based off it (look at the wings) but the dragon head and theme is just ridiculous.
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Just have to agree to disagree I guess. I think the armour plates help it fit in, and the precedent of Possessed/new Helbrute/Soulgrinder/Obliterators in mixing flesh and steel mean it's not a new concept really.
I save my hate for the Heldrake - ridiculous looking. When I pick up Chaos again, I'm going to take the awesome Forgeworld Chaos flyer - I know it's based off it (look at the wings) but the dragon head and theme is just ridiculous.
I guess so, as I quite like the look of my helldrakes! :-D
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I save my hate for the Heldrake - ridiculous looking. When I pick up Chaos again, I'm going to take the awesome Forgeworld Chaos flyer - I know it's based off it (look at the wings) but the dragon head and theme is just ridiculous.
And let's not mention its rules.
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Awesome! My Sisters are itching for purging him gently.
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Looks great! Such an easy paint scheme isn't it?
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And let's not mention its rules.
They were very strong before the FAQ, it was the FAQ that put them over the top. In the codex they're still obviously the best unit, but not gamebreaking.
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What did the FAQ do?
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What did the FAQ do?
It made the bale flamer a 360 arc turret with torrent.
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Well the book didn't specify the facing of the gun, so everyone treated it as a fixed hull mounted weapon with a 45 degree arc. After all it's in the mouth of the thing and can't be turned like a sponson or turret. This was good since flyers have very limited turning arcs you could at least use skill to avoid the thing. It kills a unit a turn after all.
The FAQ said LOL turret - measured not from the gun, like every single other gun in the game, but from the BASE. This means it has huge extra unintended range, and a 360 degree arc. It's retard proof. You simply cannot avoid it.
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To be fair, the measuring from the end of the barrel thing is only fair as long as you build standard models.
You know those 18 inch plastic red measuring sticks? I have heard of a gamer gluing one to his landraider and putting the multimelta on the end, extending its range by 18 inches. Technically hes perfectly within the rules to do this. It is a conversion after all.
Without the heldrake the chaos marine book is dire. They are so pathetically bad, you have to wonder how they survived 10,000 years of war, until you realise its because they failed a break test and ran straight away :-)
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See, I wouldn't allow that because it no longer looks like a GW multimelta, and therefore is a non WSIWYG upgrade to the Raider. Also perfectly within the rules :wink:
Of course anyone trying that would be banned from all tournaments in Australia. They're all advertised on the one website so it's really easy for us to do! WhingegamerWargamerau it's called.
The chaos book isn't "dire" without them but it's certainly not a strong book no. It still has strong options in the torrent relic, dirt cheap bikes, nurgle oblits, Axe lord, zombie objective holders, cheap autocannon havocs, and using hordes of chaos cultists to ferry super jacked melee characters across the board for cheap. Noise Marines post-FAQ are pretty good (as they should be) but it doesn't have proper anti-air at all and I think that's where it completely falls down. Typically it took GW 3 books to start getting anti-air right in the new edition.
Chaos magic being weak, and the basic chaos marine being too weak, made me sad. The basic marine should have VotLW included base. Maybe even the ccw included base as well.
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But it is WYSIWYG, the multimelta is attached to the vehicle, it just happens to have a scaffold too.
I would honestly expect a VOTLW to be equivalent to a marine veteran at least. They survived the heresy. I find the fact all your marines can be run down in combat, coupled with a miserly 1pt reduction to be laughable.
Cultists are okay, until you realise you can ally guard in, and get better troops and tanks. Cultists seem a bit lame in my experience. No point in using them with a tooled up lord because they die far too easily. Exception being plague zombies.
Obliterators used to be great, until you see how much better and cheaper tau suits and marine centurians are. Sorry, too expensive by half now, especially with the limits on when you can use guns.
Chaos magic, Tzeench especially is poor. Tzeench is always crap though, so I wasn't surprised. You really want telepathy or biomancy
I will agree autohavocs, bikers, torrent and axe lords are good. Daemon prince and sorcerers are okay too.
From all the books I have [thats all but the new marine one] chaos seem the worst. Maybe it is just me, I cant get them to play as I want them to play.
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Anyone showing up with that Land Raider would be removed, without his Land Raider. Also, if it's a scaffold for the gun, it counts as Hull so you can melta it back no problem. You can also charge it. I thought you meant extending the barrel.
The whole point of the cultists is to absorb shots as your Lord crosses the battlefield. What they do once they get there is irrelevant. You can't do it with Guard because Chaos characters can't join Guard units, since they're not battle brothers.
VotlW isn't just for surviving the heresy, to be fair. Huron has it, he's only been a Chaos marine for like 90 years. I don't mind Chaos not having ATSKNF, they've never had it after all, but they should get something else to compensate. Base LD9 is a good start, and a CCW would make them really useful in combat for the price - if it all stayed free of course. As it should.
Tzeentch should get Divination quality spells. That's just an indefensible straight screw up.
Nurgle Oblits are slightly cheaper than Centurions and a lot more versatile, with a much larger range. They also don't fall over in CC like Centurions do. They don't need cover either, but that's hardly a bonus I admit. Both are more expensive than Broadsides true, but Broadsides are only T4 and get doubled out pretty fast. As soon as you add any options they go well over the Oblits too. They're all really great units.
I would rate DA as the worst book. Tau > Eldar > SM > Daemons > Chaos > DA for me. Top 3 subject to change as more builds get experimented with with Eldar and SM. To be honest though the new codexes are all ok. Nothing retarded broken like GK when they first came out. Though I think the 3 Heldrake list beats any other list out there right now, save a Necron Flying Bakery.
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Yeah its part of the landraider. So I am told anyway, but I haven't actually seen it myself. It deploys sideways so it can fit in the deployment zone.
I thought guard were Battle bros with chaos marines? I am fairly certain they were! Surely if you want a bullet absorbing unit, chaos bikers of nurgle are better?
Yeah Huron mysteriously has VotLW. I had assumed anyone who wasnt a VotLW was a renegade, and thus should have ATSKNF. Surely marines dont become scared simply because they switched sides? But it seems I am wrong. I would give VotLW a weaponskill up personally.
There is no, and I mean, no excuse for Ahriman not to have divination. He has it in all the background stories ever, yet mysteriously has no predict the future magic. How on earth that happened I will never know. Or they could have had Tzeench magic with similar spells, and that would have been acceptable too.
Obliterators have only 1 gun and no option to fire the same one every turn. They do fold in combat pretty easily to any unit that can cut through 2+ saves, the same as Centurians should do. A couple of power fist attacks really isn't all that scary. That said, for the chaos book, they are still the best heavy support choice, so you use what you have.
I hated the eldar, you can see it in numerous posts when the dex came out, but in the most recent games I have had, they have seemed to be exceptional. There are a handful of duff units but some brilliant ones. Tau seem streets ahead of other books and have a number of unique rules excerptions. All their signature wargear is good, noone else has all their unique items anywhere near that great.
I would rank them in this order Tau>Eldar>Daemons>Dark Angels>Chaos marines. Can't include marines till I read the book and play against them a few times.
With the use of the Black legion, you can play Codex: 4 heldrakes since it can ally to another normal chaos marine army. A good tau army will rip apart heldrakes though.
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You rate Tau entirely too high Crimson.
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Not sure how a good Tau army rips apart Heldrakes myself, not 4 anyway. 1, sure...
Guard are Convenience with Chaos. The cultists are for foot troops - just take 25 or whatever and run across. Cheap and cheerful, and require a lot of firepower to put down since they're Fearless and there's 25 of them. People will actually have to expend a fair few shots to do it. I've had it done to me, and believe me all my combi plasmas looked pretty worthless! Found myself wishing I had Vindicators or even Whirlwinds.
I'd rather Tzeentch didn't get Divination - I'd like the spells to be as good as Divination themselves. It's the Changer of Ways! If anyone should have time affecting spells it's Tzeentch.
Don't try and compare Oblits to Centurions in combat, Centurions have no power weapons at all and only one attack. A tactical Squad will grind them down, a Tactical Squad will get stomped by Oblits. That's quite a difference. Virtually anything that can get to the backfield of SM can take on and tie up the Cents. Oblits come in units smaller than 3, which is a big versatility advantage, and their guns while certainly not as good, are still very good at their job - use lascannons one turn to dust a tank, and plasma cannon something the next turn, for example. All at 36" or more - Centurions are at 24" with the only gun worth taking them for, the grav cannon.
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Tau have a frightning amount of decent skyfire though, better than any other army. My opponent uses a commander suit with tankhunters manning an aegis line quad gun to back them up as well. Its easy to glance a armour 12 plane to death in one round with that alone. Never mind all the other units which can have skyfire.
Maybe in a tourney setting you won't see it, but as soon as our tau player knows hes against chaos marines, skyfire is everywhere. I only own two helldrakes and they never survive 2 rounds of shooting.
I am assuming you attach a fearless HQ to the cultists Sig? I have to say I don't use allies myself, so I didn't look very carefully, but I had thought chaos and guard were battle bros. Thats another kick in the teeth for chaos.
Tacticals will get stomped by Oblits? Really? I can't honestly say I have ever seen tacticals in combat with them. Both are mid/backfield units so are highly unlikely to get into a scrap with each other. I am going off the rumours I read on centurians, sorry, no actual experience with them!
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Looks great! Such an easy paint scheme isn't it?
No unfortunately it isn't an easy paint scheme, or at least as forgiving as I wants it to be. To get the golden looking brass to an excellent level is to use a lot of layers with thinned washes afterwards, and that Fiend almost killed my stamina. The end result is good but the time to get there took a lot of time and energy, but in the end it was worth it.
And the Chaos is weak is no quite correct where I intend to play. No doubt it has to do with low amount of terrain, open space, and one trick pony chaos lists (see the quote below). Then again, I consider myself a decent player and with cool models comes victories. :closed-eyes:
Thanks for the feedback laddies.
Maybe in a tourney setting you won't see it, but as soon as our tau player knows hes against chaos marines, skyfire is everywhere. I only own two helldrakes and they never survive 2 rounds of shooting.
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The only times I have won with chaos have involved my nurgle biker lord with the flamer item in a unit of bikers, along with the axe khorne lord with khorne terminators in a landraider. Oh and at least one heldrake. Everyone else is more or less there to make up numbers and provide some fire support. We play with a lot of terrain. Usually up to 50% of the table, certainly way over 33% has things on it, so its nearly impossible for you not to have some intervening wall etc.
My problem is chaos dont work how I want them to work. This is as much my fault as my armies fault.
I really want to make a tzeench army using 30k marine models in the red paint scheme. I know it will be terrible, but it really appeals. I just can't afford it.
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I meant that it doesn't involve too much blending of paints.
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I meant that it doesn't involve too much blending of paints.
True, and it would be very forgiving but the brass... The golden brass... Well that makes it take the same amount of time almost.
Crimson, you need to love yer spikey boyz moar. :closed-eyes:
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I meant that it doesn't involve too much blending of paints.
True, and it would be very forgiving but the brass... The golden brass... Well that makes it take the same amount of time almost.
Crimson, you need to love yer spikey boyz moar. :closed-eyes:
My spikey boys are currently in storage, and maybe headed for ebay. Ive had the army, well some of them anyway, for nearly 18 years.
I just don't think they are what I want them to be. I poured about £400 into them to make them an emperors children army in 3rd, then a couple of hundred to upgrade to 4th and another £200 to make them a 6th edition army. I just get the impression that my organically grown army is just not very good. I never have the right models available!
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Thy are banished from this thread you pointy eared T3-power-mauled-to-death Eldar. :closed-eyes:
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Tau have a frightning amount of decent skyfire though, better than any other army. My opponent uses a commander suit with tankhunters manning an aegis line quad gun to back them up as well. Its easy to glance a armour 12 plane to death in one round with that alone. Never mind all the other units which can have skyfire.
Maybe in a tourney setting you won't see it, but as soon as our tau player knows hes against chaos marines, skyfire is everywhere. I only own two helldrakes and they never survive 2 rounds of shooting.
I am assuming you attach a fearless HQ to the cultists Sig? I have to say I don't use allies myself, so I didn't look very carefully, but I had thought chaos and guard were battle bros. Thats another kick in the teeth for chaos.
Tacticals will get stomped by Oblits? Really? I can't honestly say I have ever seen tacticals in combat with them. Both are mid/backfield units so are highly unlikely to get into a scrap with each other. I am going off the rumours I read on centurians, sorry, no actual experience with them!
Skyfire costs huge points for most units though and each model has to buy it, not just one per squad - if the whole unit wants to shoot at planes that is. The Skyray is pretty good though. That commander on the Aegis shouldn't be glancing anything to death in one round. 4x 5+ with rerolls, with you getting a 5++ on average he shouldn't take it down. Heldrakes are the best against Tau because their ignore cover rules don't remove the invuln. All other flyers inevitably lose their Jink and get pulped, but Heldrakes hold on.
That said if you're getting tailored there's not much to say. Around here we don't tailor lists. It's not an accurate representation of balance.
Yeah, the point of the Cultists is to ferry an unscathed foot combat monster across the board, like Abaddon. He makes them Fearless, they absorb all the shots. Abaddon hits your line and all hell breaks loose. Good times. I had it done to me with Typhon in one unit, Abby in another, and two more cultist units (zombies from Typhon) sitting up the back holding objectives. Even with really poor saves from the Chaos player I still got pulped. To be fair he was just plain better than me too.
3 Oblits vs a tactical squad, well yeah, it's not much of a contest! T5 2+ means grinding through them is slow, and they have 2 power fist attacks each... vs 1 str 5 regular attack from Centurions. So they have the same staying power but the Oblits will clear their enemies whereas the Centurions will get slowly ground down.
Sorry to hijack your thread Shadowlord, your forgefiend was definitely worth the effort. It's a shame you hate resin, some of the Sons of Horus stuff they're doing is awesome, and they make a lovely autocannon set to make 5 havocs with.
Keen to see what you come up with since I know you're a good painter.
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There really isn't anything you can do to stop hordes of missile pods either though Sig. One unit that I play against in every game has a twinlinked missile pod and a missile pod on each suit. Even without skyfire, thats a huge number of s7 shots, with half twin linked. Combine that with broadsides with skyfire and the aegis commander its a nightmare.
Forge world make amazing models for chaos, I totally agree with Sig here!
Can't banish me, I have a webway portal straight back in Shadowlord. :-D
Is your plan to make your army competitive, fluffy, pretty or a combination of those Shadowlord? In my experience, forge fiends are too fragile to survive very long, which is why mine never get picked anymore.
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That's true, they do put out a huge amount of non skyfire str7. But what's the rest of your army doing? Those guys aren't using interceptor, what are your drakes killing when they come in?
Skyfire makes Broadsides 85pts each, and they can't get Interceptor if they do. Those Crisis suits are 57pts each! Ouch man! 4 shots each and half twinlinked, but still. Your oblits shouldn't let them get away with that!
Tau are definitely the toughest of the new codexes right now though. Chaos are never going to just roll them.
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I haven't been that blown away by tau to be honest. If you are a chaos player who focuses on hell drakes, you will suffer. But other than that, they can't deal with heavy vehicles as easily as before.
I still say neurons are top personally. But we should do a separate thread for all of this.
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Is your plan to make your army competitive, fluffy, pretty or a combination of those Shadowlord?
Competitive is just an internet term most of the time because there are a lot of things that can make say a tournament competitive list fall flat in a meta that for instance use other scenarios, terrain, and non cut n' paste lists. So I will have to answer with whatever models I like the most, and all plastic of course, and no marks.
Sorry to hijack your thread Shadowlord, your forgefiend was definitely worth the effort. It's a shame you hate resin, some of the Sons of Horus stuff they're doing is awesome, and they make a lovely autocannon set to make 5 havocs with.
No sweat, this is the internet and I would have been surprised if it hadn't been derailed from the original topic. :::cheers:::
I will have to revise my aversion to resin, because I do get bits (found other autocannons on ebay that aren't backpack fed) for my stuff like this Landraider shows.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee48/SL-PN/Black%20Legion/image_zps670f69ae.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/SL-PN/media/Black%20Legion/image_zps670f69ae.jpg.html)
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Competitive is just an internet term most of the time because there are a lot of things that can make say a tournament competitive list fall flat in a meta that for instance use other scenarios, terrain, and non cut n' paste lists. So I will have to answer with whatever models I like the most, and all plastic of course, and no marks.
Exactly.
Tournament lists are made for a specific environment and a specific set of other lists. They often fail against standard lists because they are built to respond to commonly seen army builds.
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Lascannons should be on the front ports Shadowlord! Due to how shooting works, you want them so you can target both at the same target, and it is easier to do that at the front!
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Lascannons should be on the front ports Shadowlord! Due to how shooting works, you want them so you can target both at the same target, and it is easier to do that at the front!
And more importantly, who wants to get out of their tank right in front of the guns! They'd be shot.
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Real god hammers have them in the back!
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Real god hammers have them in the back!
Yes, but they then look stupid next to Redeeemers and Crusaders which mount them at the front! From a strictly gaming perspective they are better on the front. Especially as you can assault out of the side doors now.
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Real god hammers have them in the back!
'Real?'
:unsure:
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I mount my crusaders on the back. Because they look cool.
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No, they don't.
Also:
I mount my crusaders on the back.
Double meaning! :ph34r:
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I put the flame cannons of my first redeemer on the back hatches. Gotta move fast in the Novamarines.
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I did put the redeemer flamers on the front.
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Like the painting on them models! :eusa_clap: :::cheers:::
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Lascannons should be on the front ports Shadowlord! Due to how shooting works, you want them so you can target both at the same target, and it is easier to do that at the front!
My Landraiders are not built to shoot and it looks cooler no matter what tender chicken breast thinks. :closed-eyes:
Thanks GP!
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Lascannons should be on the front ports Shadowlord! Due to how shooting works, you want them so you can target both at the same target, and it is easier to do that at the front!
My Landraiders are not built to shoot and it looks cooler no matter what tender chicken breast thinks. :closed-eyes:
Thanks GP!
Whatever works for you Shadowlord. My chaos landraider has weapons at the back too. Photos on here somewhere, but it is NSFW
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You can shoot models in front of the landraider with the lasers on the back doors.
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My chaos landraider has weapons at the back too. Photos on here somewhere, but it is NSFW
:ph34r:
Why?
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Guessing boob-tastic, Slaanesh style.
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Whatever works for you Shadowlord.
Chopper style baby, chopper style.
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Guessing boob-tastic, Slaanesh style.
Yeah this reason. It has some hasslefree miniatures harem girls, they are all topless, riding on top of my landraider.
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That sounds innocent enough!
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I like having all of the doors in proximity to each other.
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Not much to see but I did manage to build some more and undercoat the lot.
This will be my project the coming four or so weeks.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee48/SL-PN/Black%20Legion/image_zpsafa946b6.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/SL-PN/media/Black%20Legion/image_zpsafa946b6.jpg.html)
Not since I started with Ogres have I been so pumped getting a painted army on the table.
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You said pumped on the table...
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You said pumped on the table...
That's my thang! :closed-eyes:
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As long as you aren't getting your chest pumped on the table, then you'll be able to complete the painting of those figures sooner rather than later.
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What kind of painting speed are you achieving? The best I can do, and thats with doing my guardsmen is get them down to around 1 hour a model.
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My marines take about 2.5 hrs each. I bet shadow lord takes a bit longer with he brass blending.
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My marines take about 2.5 hrs each. I bet shadow lord takes a bit longer with he brass blending.
My marines take about an hour and a half, luckily I am saved by being able to spray undercoat the colour of my base coat, so I am only working on details, highlights and shading.
Brass is such a lovely colour on models, I really do like Shadowlords scheme.
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My marines are around an hour and a half to 2.
I am still not sure why that brass blending takes so long. I think he could do a similar effect faster, but they look really good.