Topic: No Blackpowder?

[Ether Dude]

It's fluffy I know, but I'd kind of like to take a blackpowder-less list.  How would you go about doing something so heretical?

The problems are:
-Big scary characters
-Mournfangs
-Monsters
-Flying characters

I think that with proper construction, you don't really NEED a cannon.  And the 300-420 points that it saves (2 cannons, master engi and a HBVG) can be spent on multi-purpose units.  In my list, I'd use the 425 for 5 DGK's (upping the unit of 4 to 5 for a total of 10) and buy a war altar. 

To get the multi-wound capability, you can grab beasts on the weaver.  Not the best, granted, and not necessarily better than light/war altar or heavens, but it gives you that d6 s10 that the cannons lose.  Maybe get a luminark?

Fun thoughts.  The Ulric-ian fluff bunny inside is very happy.

[Big Brother]

I guess you could get around the lack of a cannon with the war alter banishment, and a few light wizards.

[librisrouge]

Heretic

This message brought to you in cooperation by the Nuln Gunnery School, the Alchemists Guild, the Gold College, and Viewers Like You.

[jaggedjimmyj]

Play Brets then, you filthy peasant.

[mr chumley warner]

FAITH AND STEEL!

Bring him to the torture room squire!

 

[Mathi Alfblut]

Bring out that list and show were the TRUE power of the Empire rests! In FAITH!!!!!

Brets oppress filthy peasants. No good. I have always had a lingering dream of making an army based on the swedish farmer armies of the 15th and 16th centuries. Angry farmers picking down the crossbow and the polearms from the wall and go out to teach the local sheriff a lesson. Or them pesky danes for that matter.

[Scalenex]

I was planning to go gunpowderless most of time.  I'm adding to my DOW models to make an Empire army.  I want to keep the Tilean feel so I'm going crossbowmen over handgunners.  I got two cannons and two hot pot throwers.  I figured I could go sans gunpowder once in a while with two mortars (the hot pots).  Then I perused this forum and EVERYONE seems to say mortars are underpowered.

[Darknight]

I've run no blackpowder armies with success, but it is difficult. The problems are;

Cannons and Helblasters are serious equalizers in our army : dealing with powerful threats is hard without them. You may have to rely on magic or brutal close combat (which is always brutal, because - in general - we suck at it).
Our Fast Cavalry is blackpowder - so you have to miss out on the redirection etc. options

Aaaand . . .  that's about it. Handgund are very good, but so are crossbows and the difference between them is, honestly, neligible in an all-comers list. Individual blackpowder weapons on characters etc. can be useful, but not so much they have to be taken.

And, don't forget! The steamtank fires its weapons using steam not gunpowder.

Stand back!

(Points to anyone who can get the reference.)

[Johann Q Peasant]

Well, we have Markus wulfheart, and his anti monster bowman dudes.

[Battlekruse]

I always have something in my army there used either coal or blackpowder

[The Peacemaker]

Not taking a hellblaster isn't a big deal. You can totally make a list to compensate. But without cannons your only options are Magic which is kinda like all the other armies except they have better troops.

You might be able to do it. I mean, some games my cannons don't do anything anyway.

[Mathi Alfblut]

I have to agree here that the lack of cannons would be the major issue. Having had a game where I and a Tomb king player teamed up against a 4000 point greenskin army with a Rogue idol of Mork and having one of my cannons finally landing a killing shot on the monstrum after my mates army hade more or less been reduced to bonedust was the thing that enabled me to tiurn it around and win the game with my Empire force while my friend annoyed the foe with his liche priests.

That was a real eye opener in regards to the key aspect our cannons are. Being without them seem less than tasty.

[Captain Alard Krusen]

Well, from what I've read we have good troops that can be supported by the Hurricanum, Warrior Priests, Wizards and Captains/Generals/Grandmasters. (New to Empire, take my opinion with a grain of salt.)

You can spam much more infantry with the points you save, or afford more demigryphs. You can go cavalry-heavy with Greatsword/State Troops anvils, that may work. If I ran a no-cannon list (to represent a marching force that couldn't transport cannons through a dangerous pass), I'd go cavalry heavy and leadership heavy to strike with speed, precision and the faith in Sigmar.

[jaggedjimmyj]

Well, from what I've read we have good troops that can be supported by the Hurricanum, Warrior Priests, Wizards and Captains/Generals/Grandmasters. (New to Empire, take my opinion with a grain of salt.)

You can spam much more infantry with the points you save, or afford more demigryphs. You can go cavalry-heavy with Greatsword/State Troops anvils, that may work. If I ran a no-cannon list (to represent a marching force that couldn't transport cannons through a dangerous pass), I'd go cavalry heavy and leadership heavy to strike with speed, precision and the faith in Sigmar.

Well, I suppose you could try it. Just be sure to report what goes down once that first unwounded Hell Pit rips into your ranks...

[csjarrat]

yeah, it'll be tough.
i'd look at a high strength TGM loadout in an ICK block with banner of flame for monster eating duty.
the giant blade/runefang would be good options.
i suspect you'd need marcus + bowmen and maybe a coven of light/luminark for extra ranged potential.

i'd take some xbows to help deal with chariots and such in lieu of the hbvg/cannon set-up too

[The Ol Perfesser]

I've seen it suggested elsewhere that taking multiple lvl 1 fire wizards can help substitute for lack of firepower.
I think going without cannons will be very hard.  Good luck!

[Ether Dude]

Thanks for the input all.  As for flaming goodness, the altar provides, does it not?  I know it's magic and therefore not reliable, but it may be an interesting way to go.  Flaming knight bus is not a bad idea either   I may start an army blog to track progress, so watch nearby spaces.

[csjarrat]

Thanks for the input all.  As for flaming goodness, the altar provides, does it not?  I know it's magic and therefore not reliable, but it may be an interesting way to go.  Flaming knight bus is not a bad idea either   I may start an army blog to track progress, so watch nearby spaces.

you cant dispel a banner mate, besides, the banner is 10pts. its not even worth scrimping on.
your knight bus should also have a priest in there for hatred + prayers for it to be most effective

it would be well worth looking into magic lores like fire. iirc, flaming sword gives +1 to wound. a large unit of xbows will be wounding beasties on at least 5's which gives you some options too

[Captain Alard Krusen]

Well, I suppose you could try it. Just be sure to report what goes down once that first unwounded Hell Pit rips into your ranks...

That thing? I've never had issues with it before in my previous non-blackpowder armies before collecting Empire, so it would be interesting to see if my Empire lists could handle it. Even with cannons, my skaven opponent usually has more concerning targets on the field. It's weird to say this but the skaven players 've known were never able to really shut down my magic phases, so... magic? This is assuming I can get in a game against him anyway; he's like the only skaven player in town now and I've no idea where he's gone to.

[The Ol Perfesser]

"...only skaven player in town now and I've no idea where he's gone to."   
This is typical of Skaven.  He will likely reappear at a most inconvenient time.

[Captain Alard Krusen]

I guess that makes my older brother a-typical. He used to play skaven back in 5th and once 6th hit he grumbled about changes more than a dwarf after several ales. He's never played since.