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Author Topic: cannon clear up  (Read 7989 times)

Offline Marshal Martens

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Re: cannon clear up
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2013, 03:06:18 AM »
I think it's perfectly reasonable to fire "through" your own troops. I assumed the new rules were written to reflect the fact that cannon barrels can be elevated. As for targeting the middle of a horde in hopes of bouncing the cannonball through a model behind it, this is also reasonable. A cannon is not a straight shot weapon, historically and in the game most of it's lethality comes from the bounce. Why wouldn't a cannon crew try to maximise the effectiveness of the bounce?

Offline Noght

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Re: cannon clear up
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2013, 03:48:54 AM »
I think it's perfectly reasonable to fire "through" your own troops.

I think it's perfectly reasonable also, however, how do you "see" your target if you are a Cannonneer standing behind a Horde of Troops.  I get that you shoot over, I don't get how you "see" to shoot.
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Offline Athiuen

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Re: cannon clear up
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2013, 05:55:24 AM »
I think it's perfectly reasonable to fire "through" your own troops.

I think it's perfectly reasonable also, however, how do you "see" your target if you are a Cannonneer standing behind a Horde of Troops.  I get that you shoot over, I don't get how you "see" to shoot.

Scouts/Runners telling you the position of enemy troops.  This isn't real, it's a game.
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Offline Darknight

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Re: cannon clear up
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2013, 03:46:45 PM »
Scouts/Runners telling you the position of enemy troops.

If that's the case (and I don't challenge it) then why require any kind of LOS? It is not at if one is saying "I know there is an enemy there because of scouts - so I fire the cannon ball X distance over the heads of my men with elevation". Rather, the rules require one to see through models' gaps.
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Offline The Ol Perfesser

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Re: cannon clear up
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2013, 04:26:43 PM »
I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know a lot about tactics during the Amercian Civil War and during that period friendly artillery firing over the heads of infantry was a rarity, usually only occuring if the artillery occupied an elevated position behind the infantry (see Fredricksburg).  The reason, of course, was the risk of friendly casualties.

I can only imagine that artillery from earlier periods was less accurate, and even more unlikely to try and fire over friendly troops.

So, if you are trying to explain "why" TLOS allows artillery to fire through a horde of halberdiers in Warhammer, and you claim that they are actually firing over the infantry....I just don't buy it.

But this is fantasy, and anything goes....  :icon_wink:


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Offline Martin123

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Re: cannon clear up
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2013, 04:50:20 PM »
People getting mixed up between real life and warhammer again. :D.

If my opponent shot his cannon through a unit of his own. i would have no quarels about going right 10 inches from the back of the cannon base then.. and if he goes you cant see that point, i be like well if you go under his right leg, over his hat, around his gun i can see you :).

My Friend has a came up with quite a funny way to stop doing this....

he has built walls in all of his units ( as his theme they are battling in ruins ). so if someone try's to pull the trick they are shooting behind his own troops, he is like well you cant shoot through my unit there is a wall in the way :)

Offline theorox

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cannon clear up
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2013, 09:02:22 AM »
I

he has built walls in all of his units ( as his theme they are battling in ruins ). so if someone try's to pull the trick they are shooting behind his own troops, he is like well you cant shoot through my unit there is a wall in the way :)

Does he also claim hard cover for all his troops? :P

Banners and wings don't count for LOS, why should his walls? It's not creative basing at that stage, it's blatant cheating. I might as well play with empty bases and claim my orcs are invisible.

Theo
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 09:05:02 AM by theorox »

Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: cannon clear up
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2013, 10:06:49 AM »
I think it's perfectly reasonable also, however, how do you "see" your target if you are a Cannonneer standing behind a Horde of Troops.  I get that you shoot over, I don't get how you "see" to shoot.

True. Everyone who has ever tried to see something level with him through a couple of "ranks" of a crowd will share your opinion. However, those guys in the regiment might just as well not stand shoulder to shoulder. Even in historical formations, be it a legion or a tercio, individuals needed room to use their weapons and shields, their were aisles for arquebusiers to retreat and so on. That wouldn't be nearly enough if the unit was appropriately deep but it is not such a stretch to assume that checking player's LoS is just a testing to see if it is too deep or not. In fact, it is even less conceivable for handgunners who shoot more "linear" (not completely but still) than a cannon to shoot through/over their own...not that it is a good idea at 9 points and -2 to hit to start with.

So, if you are trying to explain "why" TLOS allows artillery to fire through a horde of halberdiers in Warhammer, and you claim that they are actually firing over the infantry....I just don't buy it.

The real reason is probably just the one they put forth: Ease of play. Now admittedly it IS somewhat ironic that many find it such a hassle but there you go.

If my opponent shot his cannon through a unit of his own. i would have no quarels about going right 10 inches from the back of the cannon base then.. and if he goes you cant see that point, i be like well if you go under his right leg, over his hat, around his gun i can see you :).

Well, LoS is a straight line and doesn't go in circles or around edges. Your point stands that it usually goes both ways.

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he has built walls in all of his units ( as his theme they are battling in ruins ). so if someone try's to pull the trick they are shooting behind his own troops, he is like well you cant shoot through my unit there is a wall in the way :)

What trick? The wall and everything else on his base is part of the unit/model. He has to use one point, say, the tip of the barrel from which to draw LoS and not change it over the course of the game, so if he can see from there, you should be able to see this point. Of course it might not matter if he's shooting at a Dragon - the beast cannot shoot back.

Your buddy is modelling for an advantage, which is tantamount to cheating. Tell him that in no uncertain terms. I'm sure someone will post the picture of that Engineer with the telescopic Hochland here in the near future...
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Offline theorox

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cannon clear up
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2013, 12:02:23 PM »
Or the Tunneling Tyranids.

Theo

Offline Martin123

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Re: cannon clear up
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2013, 05:03:05 PM »
about my buddy with the walls,

he only ever uses it for his advantage, when people are saying i can shoot this cannon through the legs of these 2 unit of 40 halberdiers, then through my unit of knights, then right bang on target.

if you dont play like a dork, neither does he.. It is never played as a wall in are games, due to the fact i give myself firing lines for my cannons