Topic: The difference between heavy armor and full plate

[Lederhosen]

So, I started working on a conversion inspired by something I saw in the Brush and Palette and it hit me - Warrior Priests can only wear heavy armor, not full plate.  I see lots of conversions based on the knight model (my own planned one included) and it hit me that it will not be truly wysiwyg.  Has that ever been a problem with anyone?  Yeah, I know that I could take the AoMI or something and say a wizard did it, but I am curious if it has ever come up in a tourney and how it was dealt with.

The second is probably more of a questions for the B&P forum, but it ties in here - what is the difference, model wise, between heavy armor and full plate?

Thanks

[talvisielu]

I dare doubt that anyone would complain about warrior priest wearing plate. I made a mounted warrior priest from knightly order sprue with slight modificating. Must admit that didn't even think about that. I think the main thing is that it looks heavily armored if its wearing either of them.

[Dendo Star]

I dare doubt that anyone would complain about warrior priest wearing plate. I made a mounted warrior priest from knightly order sprue with slight modificating. Must admit that didn't even think about that. I think the main thing is that it looks heavily armored if its wearing either of them.

Indeed.  I do think anyone playing these degree of WYSIWYG would require me to pee in their gas tank*.

*This reminds me of a funny story!  Heheh.

[brother ducat]

Just say that it is full plate , but made by inferior human smiths. Therefore it is only as effective as heavy armour. Also say that if the opponant so wishes, he may get his micron measuring machine out and measure the plate, where he will notice the 0.00001 differance in thickness that you have actually modelled on to represent this. As you have Declared all this too him in advance, and offered him the chance to check this electronically but he then refuses to believe you, and starts ranting about "what you see is what you get", remove one of your kid leather gloves, slap him across the face and offer him the choice of pistols or swords, at dawn in front of the gaming hall so you may avenge the smirch he has made on your honour.

[rufus sparkfire]

The different types of armour are never defined in any consistent way, and I bet you could find plenty of contradictory examples across the various model ranges. If anyone actually does complain, I'm sure you would be able to find something just as petty wrong with their army.

[Crimsonsphinx]

Bretonians wear heavy armour, their knights look suspiciously similar to ours.

Highelf elite infantry wear heavy armour, this is really only scalemail which is totally inferior to chain, but apparently for game purposes is heavy.  Chaos warriors wear heavy armour also, that is huge and bulky and yet unless they are chosen, is also inferior to full plate.

Methinks there is no standard.

[Lederhosen]

Cool, that is all I needed to hear, thanks!

[Perambulator]

Cool, that is all I needed to hear, thanks!

So, pistols then?

 

[Lederhosen]

Cool, that is all I needed to hear, thanks!

So, pistols then?

 

I am not wearing these doe skin gloves for nothing! 

[Rorrak]

The armour the pistoleers/outriders are wearing looks to all intents and purposes as heavy armour and yet its merely light. I agree that the exact modeling is not required.

[Edit] Whoops. Its amazing how one word can mess up the desired meaning!

[BingoBongoEmpire]

If someone wants to have a model use a pistol it's useful to have one on the miniature. If you want to use a halberd then don't field a model that's carrying a sword and shield. If it's a vampire with 2 zombies and a ghoul all in one small area in a Mordheim game don't use 4 unpainted classic range zombie models and expect your opponent to remember which is which (this happened to me years back).

If you want heavy armour and use a full plate model as the basis that isn't a problem. WYSIWYG is just to stop problems like the one I had with the gentlemen fielding the remarkable zombies, not to force people to paint/model every tiny detail unless they really want to.

[Midaski]

Where's Donnachaidh when you need him ..................

I've never seen the difference between Plate and Heavy as a modelling issue. A lot of armies have heavy armour on their profile, but 'plate' is an Empire special rule (like ASF  ).
Until this thread I don't think I've even considered it before.

However I agree our pistoliers look 'over protected' for 'light' armour.

As a layman on the subject I guess I assumed plate was a series of overlaid plates - much like the thigh armour (greaves or tassets?) on our Light Armoured Swordsmen  and the one piece breastplates were not plate.

The appropriate level of armour seems to be a rather random concept right across the GW spectrum.

As to WYSIWYG I attempt to be an exponent as much as possible - and endeavour to add armour where militia parts are used for state troops, and make sure weapons are right - I even like my champions to carry the right weapon for their unit.

I also like to add the accessories - quivers for archers and crossbowmen, and sometimes scabbards for swordsmen, and handweapons for spearmen or halberdiers.

It all adds to the character of your units ...............

 

[Mad Ulric]

Because there is only no armour, light armour, heavy armour and plate armour, the definitions are very broad. 

A typical comparison with a set of late medieval/renaissance rules would give you six or more categories for foot troops.  The tendency to mix bits of plate, with mail shirts, and padded jacks etc gave infintite variety to achieve most of the categories. 

Even then its also about the quality of the armour.  Plate armour improved over time.  EG;  Arrow proof armour didn't appear until the late 1420's but there was a lot of plate armour around before that. Sometimes clothes were worn over the top of armour as well.  It also means that figure designers get a free hand in design.

So, if anyone tries to say your figure hasn't sufficient armour to wear plate, tell them its under their tunic.  Or if they tell you the figure's armour is TOO much to be heavy, tell them its poor quality, or an antique handed down from priest to priest but really isn't very good.!!!   That will end the conversation.

[Phydox]

I think the main difference is, full plate requires a hinged metal flap in the seat of the armor.  Heavy Armor doesn't.

[wissenlander]

If your planning on using Armor of Meteoric Iron that would help compensate for the WYSIWYG issue.  However, if you're going to go down that route, it limits you as that is the only model that will be wearing that particular magical item.  I wouldn't worry about it too much, but maybe some sort of modeling/fluffy thing to think about.

[steveb]

It may all lie in the thickness of the metal and composition.  a tank and a car both have metal bodies but I bet I could, if I were so inclined, do a lot more damage to the car than I could to the tank using my pocket knife.  steveb

[redbaron998]

Often times Heavy Armour has some plate....so it would be like:

LA: Chainmail, light scale and leather, or just a breastplate (like our State Troopers
HA: Heavy Chainmail, Heavy Scale (like Sword Masters), Partial Plate (Like the Warrior Priests models)
Full Plate (Fully inclosed aromur): Full Plate of the Empire, Gromril, Chaos Armour...etc.

[Mad Ulric]

I'm not so convinced about armour thickness for individuals.  Certainly in AFV's, (Armoured Fighting Vehicles), it is very important, but armour for inviduals has to be relatively light in order to move about, (even fighting for a short length of time). Its a myth about knights hardly being able to move, or hoisted onto horses BTW, because their armour was so heavy.

However, composition is a factor.  The quality of the steel, and the addition of cobalt and general refining of techniques, such as using reinforcements, and angle points,  gives a huge variety in the quality of armour.  The improvements over time such as these, enabled full suits of arrow proof armour, and barding to be created during the 15th century. Light enough for a unmounted knight, in full armour to perform a cart wheel. 

[Johan Willhelm]

The improvements over time such as these, enabled full suits of arrow proof armour, and barding to be created during the 15th century. Light enough for a unmounted knight, in full armour to perform a cart wheel. 

Do we have any engravings or wood cuts that would prove this? . . . .

[Midaski]

That actually presents some interesting modelling opportunities .............

Knights using their lances to polevault into combat, or over obstructions .............

Knights doing handstands on their saddles ................

 

[BAWTRM]

Sounds like thing those poofy Bretonnians would do.........

[Mad Ulric]

The improvements over time such as these, enabled full suits of arrow proof armour, and barding to be created during the 15th century. Light enough for a unmounted knight, in full armour to perform a cart wheel. 

Do we have any engravings or wood cuts that would prove this? . . . .

No, I don't own any engravings that would prove that, but given the evidence below I am satisfied that it COULD be done.  Whether most knights would want to is another matter.!!!!

The Mediaval Soldier  (15th Century Campaign Life Recreated in Colour Photographs), by G Embleton and J Howe, published by Windrow and Greene 1994; ISBN 1859150365.  Chapter; Armour; page 34 under Weight and Mobility. It says; 'there is a 15th cent illustration of a knight turning a handstand or cartwheel in full battle armour'.  There is a photograph of a re-enactor performing the same feat at the top of the page.

The writers of that book are very serious about accuracy.

A late complete suit of armour of the 15th century averaged in at 52lbs. This would be distributed throughout the body of course, including the legs/feet etc.  A Napoleonic soldier carried between 60-70lbs of equipment, most of that weight was in his musket and on his back.

[talvisielu]

This is becoming a funny example of a thread, in which the original poster got his answer a long ago and then it gets way off track. But yes please post pictures of sommersaulting Reiksguard when you have some 

[Johan Willhelm]

That's why we don't have reiksguard foot any more . . . they've all run away to join the circus! 

[Warlord]

Think about it like this:

Do Chaos Warriors and Chosen Chaos Warriors have different models? One has Heavy armour, the other has Chaos Armour, yet the models are exactly the same.