Topic: Loss to OK - 2500 points

[Noght]

Leadbelchers have no move or shoot penalty confirmed.  But I don't know about the Ironblaster, assuming it doesn't either so he's hitting on 4's methinks.

Noght

[hinge01]

Well, we are largely playing on slightly bigger areas than 6*4 so I could probably position my cannon outside his range some of the time.

His range is only 36"  I would think that this is very doable.  expecially if you space your cannons out. 

[Cursain]

Well, we are largely playing on slightly bigger areas than 6*4 so I could probably position my cannon outside his range some of the time.

His range is only 36"  I would think that this is very doable.  expecially if you space your cannons out.

If he deploys in the center of his deployment zone, 12" from the edge he can move within just about any targets range.

[hinge01]

But looking at the actual battle, that is not what the OK player did.  He hid them behind a house in the back right of his zone to avoid being shot.  I know that Battle Chronicler may make it tough to guage actual distances, but those cannon shots look suspiciously long.

In a generic battle, anything you do that dicates an opponents deployment, you should be able to take advantage of.  Placing both Ironblasters dead center will create problems in deployment of the rest of his army.  Ogre units get wide fast.  Placing them dead center to maximize coverage also exposes the Iron blasters.  The OK player in this battle was pretty canny in using the Building to shield them from the third cannon. 

[Noght]

Then the OK guy plays your name sake, and uses the Hinge.  He drops his IB's on like the 18" line and deploys covering the other 2/3rds of the board.

Remember it can move 6", shoot 36" and bounce reliably 10" (with the IB special rule) so it has an effective range 52" normally.  It's OP due to move and shoot sorry no other way to spin it.  Immune to charge due to move and Grapeshot, and if the normal WM hunters get to it they lose combat.  Immune to first turn cannon snipes due to hide and move and a bunch of wounds.  Oh and it's a Chariot with Impact hits.  It's galactically lame and it's the single reason the OK are now firmly emplaced in the top tier.  And the best part is all the cool kids are bringing 2.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is an adjustment after the next round of FAQ's after the OK sweep the tourney scene, then again it looks like the VC book is bit "power creepy" compared to O&G and TK.

Noght

[mr chumley warner]

sorry i have never read the OK book rules etc,

how come you deployed across the board , and let him deploy only on the centre right?

i must be missing something?

[hinge01]

@Noght

Yes I understand the potential range is greater then 36".  I also understand that it is a chariot dragged by a pretty mean monster.  Please.

I also do not disagree that the unit is under costed and you will see loads of double IB on the tourney scene.  However, unlike you I do not have faith in GW to "fix" IBs through an errata.  So I start looking for ways of dealing with them.

The shorter range should allow us to complicate our opponent's decision loop.  The more complicated the decisions your opponent has to make, the more likely he is to make a subotimal decision.  No one ever plays a perfect game. 

Planting our cannons well with in range makes his decision easy.  Putting them such that he has to move across/behind his lines, shoot at near max range, delpoy on a weighted flank as you suggest, may lead to a less then optimal delpoyment phase/movement phase/battle plan on his part.

Looking over the Bat Rep, I still feel those shots were extremely long.  The OK player either misplayed it or was very lucky (which happens).  I also notice what looks like a wall/obstacle (the mortar and War Alter are behind it).  Perhaps it would have been better to create a "grand" Battery behind the wall.  The first Iron Blaster shot likely would have destroyed the wall but been stopped.  The second destroys a cannon.  The OK player would have had to accept two cannon shots back.  If you could have destroyed one, the other may well have fled off the board (given their starting position and movement rate, they would have been with in 6" of each other). 

[sammay23]

sorry i have never read the OK book rules etc,

how come you deployed across the board , and let him deploy only on the centre right?

i must be missing something?

Yep... He deployed his three sabretusks and his two ironblasters first. By that point, I'd had to drop all my units (The disadvantage of a few big blocks) and he could deploy his big blocks to his advantage.

[Noght]

I also do not disagree that the unit is under costed and you will see loads of double IB on the tourney scene.  However, unlike you I do not have faith in GW to "fix" IBs through an errata.  So I start looking for ways of dealing with them.

We've got Cannon counter battery fire or maybe a Peg Captain making a long charge (with the bronze shield/charmed shield) to deflect the Cannonball.  That's about it which is more than other Armies can say.

Noght

[hinge01]

Actually that is far from it.  Those are two important units but we have much more.

Magic-a dozen of spells will help here. 
Deployment-A clever deployment phase will mitigate some of the damage an IB can do.
Terrain-Use of terrain as cover, stop cannon balls (buildings, impassable, obstacles).
Engineers-makes are counter battery fire more effective.
Target Saturation-  to many targets for his two IB means something gets through.

The real solution is some combination of all of the above (along with your suggestions).

For example,

Since we have a range advanatge over the IB, a well placed comet can create a zone that he must either drive through to get to our cannons and risk being smashed by the comet, or drive around, legthening the time that he must endure our cannon fire with out responding.  This takes advantage of his shorter range and slow speed and creates two sub-optimal choices. 

[Athiuen]

Hinge, I have no idea why you set up your responses like this is an argument, both of you are correct because you're talking about different things.

Noght - A unit/monster that drastically forces you to adapt your game to deal with it is likely overpowered (especially at the IB cost).  So you are correct and I think that everyone is agreeing it's OP.  Also it's frustrating, we feel the same way.  Likely however our power creep with the new book will leave OK behind.

Hinge - Yes we have ways of dealing with it, and target saturation is a good option.  You are correct.  However, I think that a good OK player will ignore target saturation and go straight for the cannons. 

[commandant]

Noght - A unit/monster that drastically forces you to adapt your game to deal with it is likely overpowered (especially at the IB cost).  So you are correct and I think that everyone is agreeing it's OP.  Also it's frustrating, we feel the same way.  Likely however our power creep with the new book will leave OK behind.

By that logic a cannon is over powered (especially at a cannon's cost)

[Athiuen]

Obviously I was simplifying/generalising.  You also have to take into consideration other things like general army make-up.

However cannons do seem to be fairly cheap.

[commandant]

Admittedly I've only played the new OK book once and yes my army crumbled, but that had nothing to do with the IBs.   There are other, far worse, things in the OK book that nobody seems to be complaining about

[Davros]

Ironblasters can move and shoot and ignore that penalty . They can march move up to 12 inches and charge as as well as shoot . Using knights against them  is a waste of units since MEs are more dangerous .Counter battery fire with cannons and mortars would be good or a couple of Helstorm rocket batteries would be better against the IBs .

 MEs best taken out by magic like shades or purple sun plus a couple of organ guns supporting the horde units on the flanks  . Knights could also still suffer from Ogre magic as well The Maw being a nasty spell as well .

I would use my firebelly and leadies to kill the knights before they charged . OKs have lots of combinations as well to attack units in an Empire army also . With their high move rate and impact hits they can make a mess of any Empire army then the stomp on the infantry . I liked the MEs set up which I may use in my OK army also 

[commandant]

they are a chariot, they can't march as far as I know