Author Topic: Price Point (Read 5667 times)

lack0fbettername · « **on:** October 12, 2007, 07:26:06 PM »

I got currious bout something today. Alot of people say this isnt worth their points, or this is underpriced, so on and so forth.

So the question is, what do you feal in the empire book is overpriced, and how much is the stuff really worth.

Mainly answer this question.
"I never run "X", but i would use it if it cost "Y" points or less"

Currently i dont run any of the following, I think i would take them if they cost this much.

General of the empire @ 70pts
Wizard Lord @ 140pts
Runefang @ 75pts
enginners @ 35pts
Halberders @ 4pts
Helblaster volley gun @ 80pts

Crimsonsphinx · « **Reply #1 on:** October 12, 2007, 07:30:59 PM »

I use the General 9/10 battles, so I'm quite happy with him at the current points. A wizard lords problem is hes not generally a good enough leader, and so doesn't turn up often at 2000pts.

A Runefang should be 70pts tops, or bought as equipment for "electors" which could be a GotE upgrade.

Engineers would be fine for about 35-40pts if they didn't waste a character slot, I agree.
I also agree with the halberdier price, as that would make them viable.

Not sure on the helblaster. Its not overly expensive as it is, its just poor. I think a rule change would be more useful than a points cut as essentially its the slot that I begrudge wasting.

lack0fbettername · « **Reply #2 on:** October 12, 2007, 07:50:27 PM »

Yeah, i ment to include it in the original post. That these should be how many point you would pay for stuff "as is" not "i would pay X if Y was a rare isntead of special" or that type of thing.

As there are a hundred different rules solutions to make the helblaster or halbereds better/more balanced/fluffyer.
But what you think a unit cost in its current state is an easly quantifable thing.

dabber · « **Reply #3 on:** October 12, 2007, 08:01:39 PM »

The General is not so much overpriced, as not competetively priced compared to the Arch Lector. I say drop the general by 10 and raise the AL by 10.
The wizard lord is priced just fine, especially with the rod of power and the various bound items in the book. Again relatively hurt by the Arch Lector.
I think the Runefang is fine. It should be really expensive, it should be rare.
I think the Hellblaster is fine. You are just spoiled by the old version, whose potential was vastly too high. It isn't an area denial weapon anymore, which is good. But its still scary to face.

Engineers are not worthwhile at any reasonable cost. Their abilities aren't useful enough.

Halberdiers are not worthwhile at any reasonable cost. Statistically, double attacks are better than extra strength in most situations. In the situations when the halberd is better, the odds of doing zero damage are so high it doesn't matter. GW had to change the unit somehow to create something of a noticable unit difference that might give a reason to take them.

Ratarsed · « **Reply #4 on:** October 13, 2007, 06:43:30 AM »

I take stuff even though I know it is not good value. But a list of costs I think more appropriate would be

Engineers 40
Arch Lector 150
War Altar 175
Halberdiers (just give them the option of Heavy armour instead of a shield)
Archers 7
Hellblaster 100
Runefang 75 (it seems so obvious that in the hands of a character with only WS5 and 3 attacks it has to be of less value than in the hands of a WS 6-7 4 attack character)
Griffon Banner 50

Ratarsed

Crimsonsphinx · « **Reply #5 on:** October 13, 2007, 07:57:50 AM »

A Savage Orc Warboss, in a unit with a certain banner throws down 6 attacks with a Runefang at ws6. Thats far far better than our guy!

Dendo Star · « **Reply #6 on:** October 13, 2007, 08:48:14 AM »

Quote from: Crimsonsphinx on October 13, 2007, 07:57:50 AM

A Savage Orc Warboss, in a unit with a certain banner throws down 6 attacks with a Runefang at ws6. Thats far far better than our guy!

True, but our guy allows for a Magic Banner and cannot be set of a wildgoose chase via Frenzy. Also, our dude is a hellu a lot cheaper, and can have a pistol*.

*WHat can I say? I love blackpowder weapons!

jlutin · « **Reply #7 on:** October 13, 2007, 02:06:59 PM »

For the engineer. I think there should be one simple change. Raise his BS so he shoots like a wood elf lord. If he was hitting with his Hocland on 2+, he would be worth taking... maybe.

Wyzer1 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 13, 2007, 10:01:13 PM »

Quote from: Ratarsed on October 13, 2007, 06:43:30 AM

I take stuff even though I know it is not good value. But a list of costs I think more appropriate would be

Engineers 40
Arch Lector 150
War Altar 175
Halberdiers (just give them the option of Heavy armour instead of a shield)
Archers 7
Hellblaster 100
Runefang 75 (it seems so obvious that in the hands of a character with only WS5 and 3 attacks it has to be of less value than in the hands of a WS 6-7 4 attack character)
Griffon Banner 50

Ratarsed

To hell with that

That puts him at base 325pts no upgrades! He's good, but he's still on a chariot (str 7 FTL) and cant fly, and has crappy stats

Heres my list, slightly modified from yours:

Engineers 35 2x per Hero slot
Halberdiers (Heavy armor for +2 or +1 pts but no HW / Shield combo bonus. Meaning kind of a mix of swordsmen and greatswords but without the WS. It would make them a close buy for me)
Hellblaster 90
Runefang 75 So at least he can get AoMI
Griffon Banner 50
Griffon 150
Pistliers (16)
greatswords 5 (lol! J/k!!)

Ratarsed · « **Reply #9 on:** October 13, 2007, 10:59:54 PM »

Just cost the things individualy.
MR2 30
4+ ward 45
Choice of 1 from 6 bound spell level 5 (40-50 so lets say 45)
Unbreakable (Combined with the chance to get an amazing armour save, his 4+ ward and prayers to heal I would say easily worth 25 points.)
5 wound T5 Chariot with 4+ ward but no crew and no scythes (60 points?)

30+45+45+25+60 = 205

I certainly do not think my price tag of 175 is over the top.

As for the Arch lector the 2 dispel dice alone are probably worth 40 points over a General of the Empire. Add on Hatred which compensates for his worse fighting ability in the 1st round of combats and his 2 prayers and I don't think 150 is over the top Even if there were some worthwile banners for the GotE to give to state troops.

Spot on with the Griffon however.

Ratarsed

Crimsonsphinx · « **Reply #10 on:** October 13, 2007, 11:08:07 PM »

The problem with the Runefang is that it cant be used by a Grand Master. Which is somewhat bizare now a General is not an Elector neccersarily. Given there is at least one going spare, two if Karl decides to use his hammer, im sure it would be possible for a Grandmaster to have one, especialy as Helborg has one, so precedent is set.

If the Grandmaster could have one, I may even be tempted to use one. Would make him slightly better an option too.

Empireguard · « **Reply #11 on:** October 14, 2007, 01:04:42 AM »

Quote from: Ratarsed on October 13, 2007, 10:59:54 PM

MR2 30
4+ ward 45
Choice of 1 from 6 bound spell level 5 (40-50 so lets say 45)
Unbreakable (Combined with the chance to get an amazing armour save, his 4+ ward and prayers to heal I would say easily worth 25 points.)
5 wound T5 Chariot with 4+ ward but no crew and no scythes (60 points?)
30+45+45+25+60 = 205

205pts

Large target A lot easier to shoot say-30pts
you costed the ward save 3 times say -45pts
ward save and Unbreakable can be lost -10pts
Some of the AL spells become useless -10pts
Strength 7 instant death -10pts

=100pts wow its spot on

dabber · « **Reply #12 on:** October 14, 2007, 01:51:20 AM »

Quote from: Empireguard on October 14, 2007, 01:04:42 AM

you costed the ward save 3 times say -45pts
ward save and Unbreakable can be lost -10pts
Strength 7 instant death -10pts

He did the ward save once and neither it nor unbreakable can be lost. The S7 is included in the chariot price.

The popemobile is massively underpriced. Would it get taken if it cost 175 pts? Yes, and it wouldn't be super rare.

Warlord · « **Reply #13 on:** October 14, 2007, 03:21:53 AM »

- War Altar should be 150pts
- Griffon should be 150pts
- Cost of equipment upgrades for Lord level characters should be the same as hero level characters. Should be like this across all books.
- Cost of pistols across the board for characters should be 5pts
- Engineers should be 40pts, 2 for 1 slot (however no other changes... yes, I know the BS sucks, but can you imagine 8 engineers with hochland or pigeon bombs in 1 army?)

- Command for Greatswords should drop to same costings as swordsmen. No other changes.
- Outrider champion weapon upgrades free
- Flagellants 9pts (loss of T4 is a bigger hit than the flawed 'martyr' rule they gave us)

- Runefang should be 70pts
- Griffon Banner should be 50pts
- Jade Amulet should be 30pts
- Dragon bow should be 20pts
- Bronze shield should be 10pts
- Wyrmslayer sword should be 10pts

- Helblaster and Steam Tank needs their rules tweaked, then the pricings would be acceptable.

phillyt · « **Reply #14 on:** October 14, 2007, 11:46:18 AM »

Quote from: Crimsonsphinx on October 13, 2007, 07:57:50 AM

A Savage Orc Warboss, in a unit with a certain banner throws down 6 attacks with a Runefang at ws6. Thats far far better than our guy!

Heh, yeah thats for sure. I havn't taken a runefang in 6 years (used to because I thought it fluffy). But I think I would take the Battle Axe of the Last Waaaagh. I usually deploy my Black Orc Warboss with that, for 7 S8 attacks. Usually enough to slaughter most armies, especially with the Banner of Butchery for 8 attacks. Statistically better than the Runefang but you do need to watch the flank.

Helblasters have had a significant change in their roll. They are now great against large targets or for deploying the equivalent of a handgunner unit or two in an area 3" wide. If you have a few points to spare it is not a bad choice. I just don't usually field it because I don't ever have the points left... for the price I can have another unit of knights. Once I get my Goblin Sharpshooter up and running though...

Phil

Ratarsed · « **Reply #15 on:** October 14, 2007, 12:13:16 PM »

Quote from: Warlord on October 14, 2007, 03:21:53 AM

- War Altar should be 150pts

I would take away unbreakable and replace with immune to psycology for that cost. I believe above all things it is the unbreakability of the War Altar that makes it broken.

Most unbreakable units/characters do not have access to much in the way of protection so whilst they cannot be broken in combat they can at least be killed in combat. The War Altar with the 1+ / 4+ speculumed Lector issuing challenges to anyone with a remote chance of killing him or the altar is the last thing that should be unbreakable IMO.

Ratarsed

Nicholas Ironfist · « **Reply #16 on:** October 14, 2007, 02:19:50 PM »

I hate the runefang, I prefer sword of power and holy relic. For 100 points weapon wise I'd like Ghal Maraz, so cool on a TGM of white wolf.
Wizard Lord...blah...Faith and steel....an lots of black powder, leave magic generals to the pointy ears.

Thunder_downunder · « **Reply #17 on:** October 15, 2007, 12:00:36 PM »

Quote from: Nicholas Ironfist on October 14, 2007, 02:19:50 PM

Wizard Lord...blah...Faith and steel....an lots of black powder, leave magic generals to the pointy ears.

Not a bad comment. I've had every man and his dog tell me I need a wizard, or at least a scroll caddy. But I do fine with warrior priests and lots of knights. The magic phase is over rated imo.

phillyt · « **Reply #18 on:** October 15, 2007, 01:38:40 PM »

Quote from: Thunder_downunder on October 15, 2007, 12:00:36 PM

The magic phase is over rated imo.

It is until you run into an army that revolves around it. I drop a wizard lord, a pair of Warrior Priests and a 2nd Level with a nast pile of cannon and helstorms, back with a pair of infantry units and it is absolutly horrific if my opponent was thinking I was just running my normal 2 priests.

Or a Slaanesh army (which is the best magic list in my opinion) totally stacked. They will abuse you until you just want to go home (forcing units to turn a flank, making them incapable of responding, blasting away with S6 spells).

Phil

Perambulator · « **Reply #19 on:** October 15, 2007, 02:43:32 PM »

**shrug** I've said it before, but my Doomfire Ring has actually one me a few games. It's easy to dispel so for it to be effective you need a magic phase that can at least put up a fight.

IMHO I think the best way to fight is to effective in every phase of the game. Tha magic phase is still a phase in the game, like shooting and close combat. It would be nice if it did, but you don't have to kill anyone in it for the magic phase to be effective. There are plenty of spells that buff your units that can be game turning.

I suppose that the points you save in taking magic offense/defense could be used to buff the other phases of the game, and that's perfectly valid - it would just be a different army configuration and it's one of the joys of playing Empire that you can do that and still be effective.

Nicholas Ironfist · « **Reply #20 on:** October 16, 2007, 02:08:25 AM »

"it's one of the joys of playing Empire that you can do that and still be effective" indeed my friend. I prefer offense, small units of millita, Knights and 1 or 2 flyers (nasty flyers

) Most opponents mages don't last too long. If you like magic thats cool but as you stated you don't need it to be effective.

Empireguard · « **Reply #21 on:** October 16, 2007, 08:52:00 AM »

Quote from: Ratarsed on October 14, 2007, 12:13:16 PM

The War Altar with the 1+ / 4+ speculumed Lector issuing challenges to anyone with a remote chance of killing him or the altar is the last thing that should be unbreakable IMO.

Ratarsed

That's more of a comment on the items being broken not the Waraltar.

redjoey · « **Reply #22 on:** October 16, 2007, 10:09:44 AM »

Griffon banner was underpriced in 6th ed. 55pts is fine by me.

Steam Tank down to 250pts. One good hit and it is pretty much redundant.

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Author Topic: Price Point (Read 5667 times)