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Author Topic: Hellbaster Volley Gun  (Read 9296 times)

Offline W0lf

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Hellbaster Volley Gun
« on: November 11, 2007, 03:58:18 PM »
Hi im new to empire and want to do a Nuln army (as a stark contrast to my chaos army and Black orc-heavy- list)

I really like the look and idea of the hellblater so i have a question..

Do any of you field or see a Helblaster fielded often?
How effective are they?
Are they worth their points?
Is it better just to get another cannon?
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Offline Gneisenau

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2007, 04:26:47 PM »
Welcome aboard :smile2:

1) The Helblaster's popularity has decreased dramatically in 7th edition, but I'd say is has risen again somewhat. I seem to recall that some people here fielded one in their armies.

2) If we ignore misfires for the moment, one salvo will give you 18 shots on average, equaling 9 hits on short range and 6 hits on long range if shot at an ordinary target. Add 3 if firing at a large target, subtract 3 if firing at skirmishers. As with most warmachines, misfires are a major drawback. Since all those shots are S5, the Helblaster can be pretty effective.

3) Tough question. In terms of killing power, you have to aim it at something expensive, like heavy cavalry or a monster, to get the points back. It depends on your enemy whether he fields such a target or not. But the Helblaster also has a psychological effect: since it is potentially devastating, many people will hesitate to move expensive units into its firing arc. This is something you can use for your advantage.

4) If you have only one cannon now, get another one, if you have two already, you should - in my opinion - rather take the Helblaster if you can spare the points. Others will disagree with me here.
The Helblaster is quite different from a cannon. Unless getting a flank shot, a cannon will not destroy a cavalry unit, whereas the Helblaster has a decent chance to do so. What's more, the Helblaster is actually more calculable than a cannon, since you throw more dice. It also doesn't take a special slot, and special slots are precious in an empire army. On the other hand, a cannon is the best way of destroying enemy war machines, has a far better reach, and is a sort-of template weapon. Two cannons is always a good idea, and most players here seem to field this combination.

Offline W0lf

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2007, 04:59:06 PM »
Im doing a Nuln army...

i have 2 cannons already of course :P

The reason i wish to field a Helblaster is a. It looks cool
                                                      b. seems fluffy
                                                      c. Its another warmachine :D (i dont like the mortal of hellstorm)
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Offline dabber

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2007, 05:17:00 PM »
The reason i wish to field a Helblaster is a. It looks cool
                                                      b. seems fluffy
Then do you really need to ask?  Take one!!
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Offline Spiney

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2007, 06:22:42 PM »
Do any of you field or see a Helblaster fielded often?
How effective are they?
Are they worth their points?
Is it better just to get another cannon?

Ok,
Q1 - Yes I field a helblaster in every game I play
Q2 - see below
Q3 - unless you are playing against someone who knows the empire army very well indeed, yes
Q4 - If you only judge an artillery piece on damage potential yes.

Let me explain. Helblasters are great, but their power lies in the amount of damage your opponent expects them to do, rather than their actual damage potential. Needing 5s or 6s to hit most of the time IS a bit of a drag, and the short range of the weapon makes it less exciting still, but the Helblaster has a fearsome reputation from 6th Edition (when it was very, very scary) and that reputation is not entirely lost. A cannon will undoubtably do more damage over the course of the game. Unless you get a nice expensive unit to shoot the HB at (like HE dragon princes or chosen knights) its unlikely to make its points back. But I like to post the HB on one of the flanks of my army and watch most opponents avoid it like the plague.

I would also suggest that no army of Nuln could consider itself themed without at least one helblaster.

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Offline Helgrund

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2007, 07:12:41 PM »
I set the Helblaster one task in the game. Usually to destroy or neuter a heavy cav unit.

Once Im satisfied this is done, I dont fire it again but stroke occasionally everytime my opponent considers his next move.

of course there maybe times when you need to fire constantly but there is no point risking misfires to kill a few grunts.
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Offline phillyt

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2007, 07:29:08 PM »
Needing 5s or 6s to hit most of the time IS a bit of a drag

It will hit on 4+ or 5+ for half range and long range respectively.  Are you taking another -1 for multishots?  It, much like the repeater bolt thrower, doesn't suffer from that minus because its a warmachine not a handweapon.

As far as taking one?  They will almost always do what you need them too, like take out cavalry or a large monster (as a matter of fact they excel at large monster hunting since they will get the +1 and then likely hit and kill the character who takes 1/3 of the hits on average).

That being said, the best compliment for a pair of cannons is another cannon....   :biggriin:

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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2007, 07:34:00 PM »
Consider it comparable to about 14 handgunners but stronger with a better save modifier taking up a lot less deployment space.  That way you wont be upset when it does not more than 3 or so models in a turn.

Its essentially a flack gun these days.  Swatting monsters and cavalry off the table like a giant bug spray.  I typically use it now to shoot at expensive heavy knights or giants.  It is better than a cannon at removing monsters in my experience.

It has to be said I hated how it had been downgraded from 6th to 7th and had vowed not to use it.  Having used it recently it has repaid my faith in one game, and blown up in the second on my first turn.  I am still more or less happy with it.  It works well against super tough heavy armoured things, where as the helstorm works better against cheap t3 fodder troops. 

I did not like the helstorm model either, so I constructed my own.  It is kind of a mortar with 4 or 5 firework like rockets that I green stuffed, pointing out forwards.

I would consider 2 cannons and a helblaster a balanced artillery set up.  3 cannons is heading towards cheddar ville rather too rapidly for my liking.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 07:36:08 PM by Crimsonsphinx »
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Offline phillyt

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2007, 07:52:16 PM »
I would consider 2 cannons and a helblaster a balanced artillery set up.  3 cannons is heading towards cheddar ville rather too rapidly for my liking.

Whooo now, lets not get hasty here.  If the HE and DE can drop 4 RBT without batting an eye (claiming its the only way their armies work) then why would fielding 3 cannon alone mean your getting cheesy?  One isn't reliable enough, 2 is STANDARD, why would 3 be anything but an emphasis on the shooting portion?  Its only 00 points, and if your fielding 130+ models on top of that I wouldn't have an issue.  Empire does well with all phases of the game, but shooting is our strongest, and unless fielding a weird list (like all cavalry or something like it) we need to be at least even in the shooting if not supreme versus the enemy.  By shutting down the magic phase (DD and scroll caddies), excelling in the shooting (4 - 5 artillary peices), and using detachments and core knights, we can effectivly fight any army and have a reasonable chance to win.

Asking an empire player to limit their war machines to 3 or face the dark finger of cheese would be like demanding a chaos player field a respectable shooting phase in the form of Marauder horsemen with axes.  Some armies are made to fight in a certain way, and to indict them for it is a bit harsh.


Plus I like my cannons...   :mellow:

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Offline cisse

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2007, 08:12:44 PM »
If you really want to stay true to the fluff, you should field more cannons/mortars than helblasters/rocket batteries. The latter are contraptions of the Imperial School of Engineers at Altdorf. But if you like the model, use it anyway and just have fun.

I don't really like the helblaster anymore, but that's because my opponents are well aware of its weaknesses and take it out or neutralize it with quite a lot of efficiency. I guess the fact that the last edition was very popular has something to do with that, they did have a lot of practice against it. :-)
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2007, 09:21:05 PM »
I can't speak for all of you but lining up 3 identical pieces of artillery just seems wrong.  Id say the same about any army fielding 3 of any special choice, not just ours. 

I like variety, its interesting. 

Also, this is perhaps a point that people do not consider with the helblaster normally.  It is not a guess weapon.  Therefore unlike cannons, mortars and helstorms, it can choose its target after the cannons have fired.  You have to declare all guess weapon ranges, and therefore targets before you can do anything else.  The helblaster can mop up survivors afterwards.
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Offline phillyt

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2007, 09:30:32 PM »
I can't speak for all of you but lining up 3 identical pieces of artillery just seems wrong.  Id say the same about any army fielding 3 of any special choice, not just ours.

I see your point, but if anything is going to be dropped in groups, wouldn't cannon batteries make the most sense?

Quote
I like variety, its interesting. 

Well, in my main list I field: Knights, spearmen, greatswords, pistoleers, swordsmen, cannon, helstorms, and sometimes flagellants.  I figure thats enough variety and there are around 150 models so I usually don't feel bad about using 2 or 3 cannon  :biggriin:

Quote
Also, this is perhaps a point that people do not consider with the helblaster normally.  It is not a guess weapon.  Therefore unlike cannons, mortars and helstorms, it can choose its target after the cannons have fired.  You have to declare all guess weapon ranges, and therefore targets before you can do anything else.  The helblaster can mop up survivors afterwards.

Good point, though I still prefer Helstorms.  :icon_mrgreen:

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Offline Spiney

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2007, 09:49:09 PM »
Quote
It will hit on 4+ or 5+ for half range and long range respectively.
have you ever fired a helblaster at a target withing half range? 12" is awfully close for an non-skirmish enemy unit to get to a warmachine. In fact so close you are probably about to lose the machine.

Most things you shoot at will hit on 5s, skirmishers will usually be 6s unless they are about to tear you apart.

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Offline phillyt

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2007, 10:13:42 PM »
Quote
It will hit on 4+ or 5+ for half range and long range respectively.
have you ever fired a helblaster at a target withing half range? 12" is awfully close for an non-skirmish enemy unit to get to a warmachine. In fact so close you are probably about to lose the machine.

Most things you shoot at will hit on 5s, skirmishers will usually be 6s unless they are about to tear you apart.

There is not a skirmishing unit in the game that is worht shooting at with a helblaster.

And if you are forcing your enemy to remain 12" away fro mthe Hleblaster hasn't it already done its job?

Phil
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Offline W0lf

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2007, 10:38:50 PM »
Im pretty sure ill field one now.

They dont look too effective and im guessing mine will have a short life span. Buts its fluffy and cool :D
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Offline Gneisenau

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2007, 10:55:29 PM »
Its essentially a flack gun these days.  Swatting monsters and cavalry off the table like a giant bug spray. 

First sentence conjured the picture of some people in puffy clothing aiming an 8.8 at some DE harpies...

...and the second one doing the same with a huge aerosol can :engel:.

But I agree with PhillyT - shooting it at skirmishers is not a good idea. Large targets are the priority, then target the rest of the enemy according to point costs.

Offline phillyt

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2007, 10:57:16 PM »
Im pretty sure ill field one now.

They dont look too effective and im guessing mine will have a short life span. Buts its fluffy and cool :D

Well, again, they CAN be effective, you just need to avoid the desire to shoot them every turn.  When I first started using them I was rolling all the time.  You need to save it for when it counts = cavalry, large monsters, last resort (as in right before it gets charged or may be lost).

Once you use them a few times try the helstorms.... now thats what I call an engine of destruction...

Phil
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2007, 11:02:49 PM »
I don't think I could stand to use a helblaster anymore. Having to roll to hit would be so disappointing.


Quote
I would also suggest that no army of Nuln could consider itself themed without at least one helblaster.

Even though they are made in Altdorf?
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Offline phillyt

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2007, 11:09:48 PM »
I don't think I could stand to use a helblaster anymore. Having to roll to hit would be so disappointing.
Yeah, thats why I use the Helstorm... its the new Helblaster for the 7th edition!
Quote
Quote
I would also suggest that no army of Nuln could consider itself themed without at least one helblaster.

Even though they are made in Altdorf?

Nice...

Though the 6th edition Empire book planly has a picture of a bunch of cannon and Helblasters with the caption to the effect of "a Nuln army"

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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2007, 11:10:06 PM »
So far it appears to me, from results in game that both the helstorm and helblaster are equally good.

It depends what you fight, and how often to which you want.  Both compliment a cannon or two quite nicely, but a helstorm is basically a better mortar that does not use a special slot.  For that alone it can be very worth having.

A helblaster needs to be looked at compared to our other units.  It is no longer the mincemeat unit of the past, its now a selective predator :)
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2007, 11:18:15 PM »
I'd try the rocket thing if I could work out how to make one. I'm not keen on the proper model.


Though the 6th edition Empire book planly has a picture of a bunch of cannon and Helblasters with the caption to the effect of "a Nuln army"

Well, what do they know?  :-D
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Offline phillyt

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2007, 11:22:38 PM »
So far it appears to me, from results in game that both the helstorm and helblaster are equally good.

A helblaster needs to be looked at compared to our other units.  It is no longer the mincemeat unit of the past, its now a selective predator :)

Very true.  Another thing to consider, while the helstorm is great it can run into situations where it isn't going to be a very good choice, especially in tournaments where you use the same list the whole way.

Helblasters, even after being corrected, will ALWAYS have something to do, even if it isn't the best option (something can be shot at somewhere).

Also, many of my opponents still fear its very placement on the board...


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Offline Johan Willhelm

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2007, 12:22:35 PM »
Ok this is probably going to hit what little credibility I have with you guys but . . . . . .

The Helblaster does rock somewhat with an Engineer attached, that extra pip of Ballistic Skill can make all the difference

I know I know the inqusition are going to  ::heretic:: me

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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2007, 01:19:41 PM »
Johan, I thought that too.

Although I am somewhat concerned that I would be better to have a second helblaster which does not take a character slot and costs about the same, than a helblaster. 
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Offline Merrick

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Re: Hellbaster Volley Gun
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2007, 10:04:07 PM »
Burn me please but.....
Engineers are a perfectly feasible choice in large games of 4000 points plus, right?

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