Topic: 40K - New Space Marine Codex

[Michael W]

Haven't seen a thread on this, so I figured I'd start one.  'Cause, I gotta confess...I got excited about 40k again!

I had the chance to flip through this tome a couple of days ago.  And it really is a tome - more than a hundred forty pages, if I remember correctly (ie, 50% larger than our Army Book!).  They sat down at this thing, said, "What do we want to add?", and did it.  It seems like nothing's missing and everything is added.

The stupid Smurfs-specific squads are gone, and Deathwatch may finally but wiped out as well.

Just Some New stuff:
* Honor Guard squad
* Two types of Vet Squads - one assault, one shooty.
* "Master of the Forge" Techmarine HQ
* New flame-shooting Land Raider (my Salamanders are so happy!)
* All the weapon options and then some are back for Dreads, Preds, and Razorbacks.
* "Ironclad" Dreadnought sports two CC weapons - there are now 3 types of Dreads!
* New Landspeeder transport for scout squads.
* Shiny new heavy artillery piece.

I'd get into details, but there are too many.  New wargear is around, and Marine Characters can now be horrifically powerful, sporting more personal weaponry than an entire squad of guardsmen.  Scout Bikes are back with a passion, sporting grenade launchers, teleport homers, and shotguns.  Landspeeders now have an insane number of weapon combos, including things like dual Heavy Flamers or dual Heavy Bolters.  Tanks dropped in price (the Predator Destructor has a place in the list again!), so now going in fully-mechanized is an easily-doable option.

Anyway...I found myself eagerly excited upon reading through this thing.  Anybody else have a peek yet?

[cisse]

Didn't have a chance to read the codex yet, but looking forward to it. I play SW's, but their codex is so out of date that I often use the ordinary SM codex for rules, so I'm excited to see what they did with it. Sounds promising.

[t12161991]

Oh I'm getting the codex... if only because I use SM's in my Apocalypse list (250 points to 5000 woot!)

[Ad A Dglgmut]

Not to start a hissy fit whine fest, but am I the only one who is disgusted with GW in releasing another Space Marine Codex so soon, when others need updating first (Dark Eldar anyone?).  Yes I realize the kiddies like the big blue men in robot suits, but seriously, their codex couldn't have been off too bad, could it(I don't play 40k)?

And, even though it would have been caught probably, does anyone know if they are adding all the Space Marine sub-lists to the book, such as Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves?  From what I remember, back in 3rd edition, there wasn't much different overall between a normal Space Marine list and one such as Blood Angels (other than Blood Angels having a bit more emphasis on close combat, but the main list seemed to remain the same).  Seems like to me if they did, it would cut down on costs (3 or so less books to manufacture), and also make releasing new updated lists faster, so that they wouldn't dedicate a month or so of time for each Space Marine varient list.  I'm probably answering my own question though, since I remember a new Dark Angels list being released not too far back. 

[Warlord]

Not to start a hissy fit whine fest, but am I the only one who is disgusted with GW in releasing another Space Marine Codex so soon, when others need updating first (Dark Eldar anyone?).  Yes I realize the kiddies like the big blue men in robot suits, but seriously, their codex couldn't have been off too bad, could it(I don't play 40k)?

And, even though it would have been caught probably, does anyone know if they are adding all the Space Marine sub-lists to the book, such as Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves?  From what I remember, back in 3rd edition, there wasn't much different overall between a normal Space Marine list and one such as Blood Angels (other than Blood Angels having a bit more emphasis on close combat, but the main list seemed to remain the same).  Seems like to me if they did, it would cut down on costs (3 or so less books to manufacture), and also make releasing new updated lists faster, so that they wouldn't dedicate a month or so of time for each Space Marine varient list.  I'm probably answering my own question though, since I remember a new Dark Angels list being released not too far back. 

They have no motivation to do so. Space Marines (and all their varients) account for over 50% of ALL GW revenue. More SM releases, means more money. More flavours, means more money. They are going to be releasing a new space wolf codex though (from what I read somewhere).

[Dazgrim]

Also 'new' is the inclusion of Legion of the Damned as an elite choice. Warlord is right SM out sell every other product line put together, which is why they get at least 3 release to every one anyone else gets. Apparently the best selling non space marine product is the DE core  infantry box - something that is not going to change any time soon with the new DE rules.

[phillyt]

Not to start a hissy fit whine fest, but am I the only one who is disgusted with GW in releasing another Space Marine Codex so soon, when others need updating first (Dark Eldar anyone?).

Because Dark Eldar are irrelevant.  At least they got a page in the rule book. 

Yes I realize the kiddies like the big blue men in robot suits, but seriously, their codex couldn't have been off too bad, could it(I don't play 40k)?

The Space Marine fluff, including the Terra and Emperor stuff, is about as good as anything GW has ever produced.  It isn't just children who enjoy the army and to imply so is insulting to those of us who enjoy them.  5 minutes in time out for you, get in that corner.   

Besides, the current SM book sucked badly.  It took all the options away.  The Ultramarine focus was cool, and makes it a must have for that chapter for fluff alone, but the others needed help too.

Phil

[Dihenydd]

Does anyone if its still possible to do wacky themed forces like they did with the Eldar?  I'm primarily interested in re-creating an all JetPack Assault marine force.

[patsy02]

Apparently the best selling non space marine product is the DE core  infantry box

Dude, the only way I can see that being possible is that the stats are from when the 3rd edition starter set was around, and people forgot where they got the DE from and assumed they had bought a box of warriors sometime in the past.
Besides, are you saying it beat imperial guard cadians, the first and only plastic box of vanilla IG that has ever existed outside the shitty rogue trader ones(and you need 1,000,000 for every army).

[t12161991]

Actually, you only need about 2 boxes for an IG army. thats 40 guys for two small platoons, 3x command squads + associated special squads and elites+ tanks and you have an army.

[Ad A Dglgmut]

It isn't just children who enjoy the army and to imply so is insulting to those of us who enjoy them.

I didn't mean to come off as insulting, I just meant that, more than likely, from my point of view from everything I have seen with Space Marines being the forefront of 40k, that they would probably be the most appealing army to new comers and younger gamers, since they are so versitile and tough, will still being able to have good shooting and closecombat(ie, no major handicaps or weaknesses).  Heck, when I started 40k, when I was 13 or 14, I'll admit, Blood Angels were my first army.  

No harsh feelings. 

Meh, Im just wondering why, outside of based on a financial reason, the other forces are still on the back burner, or even possibly off of it.  But then again, money is a deciding factor in a lot of things.

[Dihenydd]

Space Marines will always be GW's major focus for 40K.  Their first box games (pre 40K) were based on the marines as well.  It is the key archetype for the 40K milieu.  It is by far the easiest army to collect, paint and play.  So, they try to service the largest part of their market.  Its the 80/20 rule really.

It takes 80 % of your time to satisfy 20% of your customers
It takes 20% of your time to satisfy 80% of your customers

Although these numbers aren't exact for our purposes, the idea is the same.  You put money where it will realize the biggest result.  Putting a lot of time and effort into 10% market (Dark Eldar) if that, might make them happy, but it will hurt you financially if its at the expense of the larger market.  So no, I don't expect Chaos Dwarfs either any time soon.  Maybe with a new ruleset/book/update pdf, but a new mini's line?  Not likely.

[Mathi Alfblut]

Wait?
The new Marines can have Legion of the Damned as an elite choice? 

Hey, I am going! I am so going to get into Marines now! A Cursed founding unit, fighting against everyone, but still fighting for the Emperor!  Alone and missunderstood, but the true heroes. Just like me!

[BAWTRM]

Landspeeders now have an insane number of weapon combos, including things like dual Heavy Flamers...

I like options just as much as the next wargamer but this strikes me as ridiculous. Flamers on a flying vehicle?

[Michael W]

Heavy Flamers have been on Landspeeders since...before I started.  Don't tell me you want to get rid of them now!

[phillyt]

Wait?
The new Marines can have Legion of the Damned as an elite choice? 

No, not as an elite choice as far as I know.  More like a special character option.  As a matter of fact, in order to get the special rules that were available for the different chapters, you need to select their chapter master as a special character choice.  That part is sort of stupid.

Phil

[Michael W]

Wait?
The new Marines can have Legion of the Damned as an elite choice? 

No, not as an elite choice as far as I know.  More like a special character option.  As a matter of fact, in order to get the special rules that were available for the different chapters, you need to select their chapter master as a special character choice.  That part is sort of stupid.

1) Yes, an Elite choice for LotD.  You can even take three squads (one for each Elites)!
2) Most of the Special Characters aren't even Chapter Masters.  The Special Rules that they confer upon the army are, while noticeable, not that big of a deal.  Mostly, the Chapters are now simply grouped under the single book; the special characters confer a small change to the army list by replacing "Combat Tactics" (the ability to choose to fail morale tests) with some other rule like Fleet or Stubborn.  There are special characters for the Ultramarines (six characters), White Scars, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, and Raven Guard.

[phillyt]

Hmm.. thats interesting.  Admitedly, I only had about 5 minutes with the book while my wife stared a hole in my head...

Phil

[patsy02]

Actually, you only need about 2 boxes for an IG army. thats 40 guys for two small platoons, 3x command squads

Actually, you need minimum three boxes for two platoons. 2 squads of 10 and a command squad of 5 in one platoon. You could buy a chimera and go off with a total of 35 guardsmen, but the more the merrier, especially now that our tanks are worse.

[phillyt]

How did they get worse?

Phil

[t12161991]

Worse? How? They are more survivable and with slightly better template accuracy (as I always seem to roll a hit... ). I would say that our already good Leman Russ got a bit of a boost, and Basalisk's are still really good as well.

[patsy02]

Worse? How? They are more survivable and with slightly better template accuracy

Er, you think throwing two d6 and detracting 3 is more accurate than throwing one d6? All template weapons are more inaccurate now, unless you have a very high BS.

[Mathias von Hochland]

Expected value of discrete random variable X, where X is a fair d6, numbered 1 to 6 _________ E(X)=3.5
(This means, if you rolled a whole load of dice, the average value you'd get would be 3.5 (but as it's discrete it means about 3 or 4)

Expected value of discrete random variable Y, where Y is the sum of two fair d6s, each numbered 1 to 6 _______ E(Y)=7
Subtract the BS, 3 for the ol' Russ, gets 4, which is effectively the same as the expected value for 1d6.

Stationary, blast template weapons are just about even in terms of accuracy in the two editions of 40k. But, would someone like to explain how firing a blast weapon differs when you move...

[t12161991]

Read the part in the parentheses. As for moving...

Roll the Scatter dice and a D6 to see where the shot lands. If the Scatter dice rolls a HIT symbol the shot lands on target. If an arrow is rolled, the marker is shifted in the direction shown by the arrow the number of inches indicated on the dice. If the Blast weapon was fired by a model that moved in that turn’s Movement phase, then roll two dice to determine the distance scattered and pick the highest result.

If thats too much, feel free to take it off...

but as we can see, you roll 1D6 if you don't move and 2D6 pick the highest if you do. Average roll of 1D6 is 3.5 (as above), which -3 is .5. Not enough to effect the damage done by a large degree. If moving it is 7-3=4 so it will affect small blast weapons a lot, and large blasts as well, though they will still hit some of their intended target. So, chances of hitting of hitting in 4th edition are 50% for regular guardsmen. And by my (very possibly inept) calculations, 29% chance for tanks. In 5th edition, it is about 44% for small blast weapons not moving, and about 61% for not moving large blasts. Moving, about 6% for small blast weapons, and about 19% for large blast weapons. So when moving, yes much less accuracy, but in 4th edition you could not fire the battle cannon while moving, therefore 0% chance of hitting .

[Duce]

yay imperial!

*takes off pants*