Topic: Let's get started! Empire book design, phase 1.

[Fandir Nightshade]

What I would like to see is an option to use every unit like knights and outriders in an mounted/dismounted version creating foot knights together with knights and outrider units dismounted would be a blast too. But this should be converted into the 8th edition for every army.

I just greatly dislike the situation where 10 chaos knights stand before a house and aren´t allowed to enter because they are on horse (I generally like the new building rules but I think there is an overall design mistake GW made), along those lines every unit should be able to go into skirmishing mode to move fast through terrain giving up any rank boni.

So lets collect our core troops and I add my suggestions to them Hurenwiebel would like to make them flexible so that you have a basic state trooper and get an equip list of stuff but if you include special rules like I would like (stubborn for halberdiers) you get the problem that everyone will create heavy swordsmen with heavy armour, shield and stubborn.

So my suggestion

Halberdiers 6 points a pop líght armour, no shield option but +1 point heavy armour upgrade and stubborn

spears 5 points a pop light armour, shield option +1 point +2 points upgrade to half pikes giving them three ranks and ASF no shield option for half pikes

swordsmen 6 points a pop light armour, shield and pistol option at +1 point and skirmishers for +1 point

crossbows 8 points +1 point light armour, +1 points pavise (gives them another +2 armour against range attacks)

handguns 10 points 18 inch range S4 armour piercing always stand and shoot and no -1 to hit for stand and shoot fire from ranks, handgunners fire from two ranks

light cav 14 points, horse, light armour, +1 point spears, +1 point heavy armour,

knights 21 points stats as they are no plate mail but heavy armour

huntsmen 10 points, 5-10 longbows

drop the archers as they make no sense in empire armies except for huntsmen

[Warlord]

drop the archers as they make no sense in empire armies except for huntsmen

Speak for yourself non-Hochland or Stirland player!

I think this thread should be of a more strategic nature, of how a group can get together and write the book, not straight down into solutioning.

[kk14]

While this project seems to be taking longer than I had hoped to get off the ground, I figure we'll start by outlining specific objectives, and then adding goals as we go

So mainly: what needs fixing? Anyone who says 'everything' get's an angry smiley and then ignored. 

I think items that need fixing include:
Halberdiers (state troopers as a whole?)
Engineers
Mortars
Archers/huntsmen
General of the Empire
Banners.
Some (many) magic items.

What did I miss?

How do we fix these things? I hope to come up with a decent balance of good theory/mathhammer and fluffiness and simplicity. Many of them, IMHO have simple fixes that don't need much change, but a few have me stumped (such as the Engineer.

Are there things we need to add that aren't there? I realize that this opens up a huge can of worms, but it needs to be asked. Is there a magic item that screams 'Empire' that we don't have? A character?

[Fandir Nightshade]

I think nobody wants to move because everyone fears he is just beating a dead horse.

I tell you why I think it is difficult right now, if we start the halberdier discussion we might have a gazillion views and no consent (like with some of the other issues the empire has) I wouldn´t mind as I like discussion (especially on how to improve army balance, not only empire but all armybooks) but it ain´t an easy job.

I would suggest you are the big boss and decide what you would like and what you wouldn´t like in your version of the empire army book 8th edition...

To fix the stuff I would suggest that you collect as much data as possible listen to the arguments pro and contra and decide how you would like to tweak it you are the big boss.

so now that I have said this I will give you my ideas again in this thread.

First the things I also think need a fix

Knights (I don´t see them as a core choice even if it puts the elite choices in a bigger hazzle)

Handgunners ( They should be the empires major missle unit not crossbows who are good in their own way but lower tech as handgunners and seldon used fluffwise),

Captain (right now he doesn´t really compete with the battle wizard or the warrior priest unless he is a bsb).

Greatswords (as Emprie elite they should work as elite either make them cheaper or give them some special rules right now they are one of the worst elite infantry units there is)

So lets go from core to rare and at the end characters and magic items

Core

The Halberdier
THE core choice of the empire right now is the weakest of all state troopers, bad in damage output, bad in survivability. Making them the WS guys could be one approach but the Ws4 on the swordsmen is kind of easy to grap as they are the fencing unit. Armour piercing was mentioned but it wouldn´t change anyhthing as there are usually 3-4 attacks back from the halberdiers = 1-2 hits = 0,5 to 1 wound. A single wound with -1 or -2 armour isn´t really scary is it?

I suggest to give them something that mirrors their fluff, holding the evil uberpower enemy in the spot for some knights, or flagellants, or greatswords to charge in and win the day. I suggest stubborn as one idea another one might be to grant them the rule of that chaos banner granting them insane courage on any double or any 1 in the roll it is quite unreliable but could make halberdiers a great choice. I favor the stubborn rule as it encourages to make the unit really large (like 30 halberdiers) to make sure they run from fear causers.

Handgunners

Easiest fix would to replace their d6 extra range from the first volley, it made the handgunners a tight competition to the crossbows in 6th edition now most people tend to take the crossbows for that one extra shot and extended short range.

Another idea might be to grant them -2 to hit on longe range and +1 to hit on short range making them great as shooting detachments and lethal at 12 inch.

Another idea would be to give them always stand and shoot.

Archers

8 points , well we pay those points not for the archer but for the skirmisher if we could take them without the bow nobody would field them ever. So if we improve the bow they might have a different role on the battlefield. If we get another skirmisher choice (like duelists with pistols) nobody will ever buy them. I would leave them where they are...

Hunters on the other hand should be able to have a 5+ unit size 10 are just stupid to hide.

[Warlord]

@ Fandir
- Captain is not broken, also often used as a captasus.
- Knights are supposed to be core - they are supposed to be common, and do not correspond to the frequency of real life knights. Besides, its not as though they suffer from High Elf syndrome like the Silver Helms did in 6th ed. The meaning of Core vs Special is for composition purposes only, and their frequency in army composition compared to the other choices is balanced.
- Greatswords aren't as terrible as you make them out to be. There are just too many other armies who have had their elite infantry buffed beyond reason that make ours seem worse.
- Mortar is fine. Helstorm is just that much better. Points are right, slot is right.

Whats broken:
General - not as good at leading as he should be

Warrior Priests / Arch Lector / War Altar - all Sigmar specific. Need to be polytheistic.

Engineer (VERY BROKEN)

Addition of Witch Hunter (assassin-like)

Halberdiers (mildly broken - Stubborn OR HA would fix)

State Troops - magic banners in the same nature as skeletons

Knights - +1I

Archers - too expensive, should have option for ranked up (and braziers), huntsmen should be US 8+ and cheaper with better equipment.

Free Company - need a more versatile weapon selection to make them more competivite.

Greatswords - cost vs other elites, magic banner

Pistoliers - ability to become demilancers (pistol + lance)

Inner Circle Knights - not significant enough upgrade. +1WS +1I (I5)

War Wagon - rules similar to CiM

Helblaster - removal of some of the modifiers, more forgiving misfire chart.

Flagellants - +1T, +1pt.

Steam Tank - no other big nasty takes incremental hits to its effectiveness as it loses wounds (though they should).
Steam Points should work - for each SP to use, roll a dice. For each double rolled, reduce by 1 SP. A triple, reduce 2 SP, etc.

Command costs - I think command costs are too high (though I think that about almost all armies)

Magic Items - some of the talismans, armour, weapons and banners need to be fixed.

Anyway - I'm solutioning, though these are only rough ideas on what is broken, and how they can be fixed - sorry to get sidetracked into solutioning.

[EarthAndStars]

Free company are rarely mentioned, but I think they should either be a) reduced to 4 points each, or b) kept at 5 points and skirmish.

[GambitGriffin]

I think warlords summery is pretty good

No one has mentioned the grand master. I think he's good enough stats-wise, I would just like to add a special rule:
Glorius charge: All knights & TGM may reroll to hit on the charge.

[osterknact]

is this still happening

[arselus]

I think warlords summery is pretty good

No one has mentioned the grand master. I think he's good enough stats-wise, I would just like to add a special rule:
Glorius charge: All knights & TGM may reroll to hit on the charge.

Agreed on both points.

[Derek Contyre]

Lets revamp for 8th edition, or are we happy with the buffs that our army got?

[GambitGriffin]

Well, the change to 8th edition helped a lot. IMO the biggest problems with our infatry was that they died before they got a chance to attack and that has been fixed now. The never ending halberd-issue is pretty much fixed now and the engineer is actully useful!
IMO the army is good enough on the whole but some units could need a little fix.

I think the Captain and GotE need something extra. The captain is good if you take him as a bsb or riding a pegasus but other than that he is of little use. The GotE offers only a option for a magic banner and he is of course cheaper than the AL but other than that the AL is much better. Granted AL cant ride the Griffin but he has the altar instead.
What both the captain and the GotE needs is something that make them feel like diciplined officers. The idea about "drills" or "orders" have been floating around the board for some time and I like that idea.
Maybe something like this:

Orders:

1. Attack formation! (the unit may attack with an extra rank. Also works for ranged attacks.)
2. Defencive positions! (the unit gain   1 to AS)
3. Lose formation! ( The unit counts as skirmisher when shot at.)
4. Fire on the march! (Handgunners and crossbows may march and shoot.)
5. Cover ground quickly! (The unit may march at dubble moment and they gain the swift-charge rule) Dont remember what the rule is called right now but I mean the rule cavalry got when you from 3 dice and pick the 2 highest.

The orders take place at the begining of the empire players turn and you must pass a unmodified LD test make an order. The command last untill the next turn. A captain can issue one order and a GotE 2 orders in the same turn.


An other cool rule for statetroopers could be something like this:

Fire pistols!
Many soldiers in the empire (but not all) carry pistols and the officers encourage the use of pistols even if they are not include in the official training.
At the start each combat the statetroops may fire 1d pistols shot for every 20 models in the unit.

[Derek Contyre]

Something cool would be for our sergeants and duellists and other unit champs to choose other weapons as an upgrade. Or even have them in better armour. Maybe full plate for halberds, spears and swordsmen while the missile units have options for alternate weapons, like the handgunners do now.

[arselus]

GambitGriffin, your ideas sound great! I really like how you used empire fluff to derive useful rules. Since I don't play any other armies I have no sense about how balanced these additions are, but they sound great to me.

I was also thinking: Attack formation! Allows for a free reform (no movement penalty) at the beginning of movement phase for any parent unit the Captain/ GotE is in.

[Johedl]

I think that GambitGriffin was right in that the 8th edition fixed alot of problems with the old army list. I would like a bit of fluffy changes:

Master Engineers have to take panic tests when a stank is destroyed.

A state troop unit with an detachment (Perhaps two) should be able to buy a Lieutenant for around 20 pts in addition of the seargant. The Lieutenant can take a magic items for up to 15 pts and have W2 and can have diffrent equipment from the unit, but functions as an extra champion.

Outriders should be able to change their miniguns for blunderbusses for free. Not fluffy but it would make the weapon interesting.

 

[GambitGriffin]

GambitGriffin, your ideas sound great! I really like how you used empire fluff to derive useful rules. Since I don't play any other armies I have no sense about how balanced these additions are, but they sound great to me.

I was also thinking: Attack formation! Allows for a free reform (no movement penalty) at the beginning of movement phase for any parent unit the Captain/ GotE is in.

The idea of somekind of orders has been around on this forum for at least a year now:) I like orders or that a GotE and captains makes the unit stubborn and that GotE makes one unit of greatswords counts towards the core choices.
I did however come up with the "Fire  pistol" idea. Pistols is well incoporated in the fluff but very few units in the army actully use them.

[red bull]

Ok then, I have taken all the previous ideas (with modifications) as well as some of my own and compiled a list of what you guys (and me) want changed.
This is just ideas though, so don't kill me if you don't like them all.

Empire Army List

GENERALS & CAPTAINS
The order ‘March and Fire!’ is too good, ‘Move and Fire!’ would be better as handguns and crossbows are move-or-fire.
If the army contains a General, one unit of Greatswords may be taken as a core choice.

TEMPLAR GRAND MASTER
Any unit of Knights joined by the Templar Grand Master gains the Devastating Charge special rule.

WITCH HUNTER
Cost 50 points. Profile: Attacks 3, Initiative 5, Ballistic Skill 3, Toughness 3, Wounds (can’t decide), Weapon Skill 4, Strength 3, Leadership 8. Equipped with a hand weapon, he may be equipped with an additional hand weapon for +5, and may also have poisoned attacks +10. May be concealed within a unit. Witch Hunters have Hatred for all magic using characters.
(I’ve tried to make him like an assassin, deadly but easy to kill.)

ENGINEER
May be equipped with a Hochland Long Rifle for +15 points (20 is too much, has Ballistic Skill should be as good as a Captain at 5.
May reroll 1 artillery or scatter dice for a war machine within 6’’.
Master Guidance: Any unit of Handgunners, Archers or Crossbows gain rerolls to hit when joined by an engineer.

STATE TROOPS
All State Troops may be upgraded to Veterans for +2 points per model. Veterans have the Stubborn special rule.
May be upgraded to carry pistols for +1 point per model. For every 5 models in the unit, rounding up, roll a D3. The unit fires this many shots. When in Close Combat only units not engaged in Close Combat may use their pistols.
(Realistically you wouldn’t have time to fire a pistol at an enemy you’re fighting)

SWORDSMEN
May be upgraded to Fencers (I can’t think of a cool name for them) for +3 points per model. Fencers each have 2 attacks and the champion has 3.
Though this sounds amazing only the front rank benefit as the second (and third) ranks can only contribute 1 attack.
So 20 fencers with Full Command cost 20 and dishes out 16 attacks, where as 20 normal Swordsmen with Full Command cost 145 and dishes out 11 attacks.
These guys however could be potentially lethal if used in a horde, though it would be expensive

HALBEDIERS
May be upgraded to wearing Heavy Armour for +1 point per model.
(Unoriginal but would seem to do the trick, especially if combined with Veteran.)

SPEARMEN
May be upgraded to Pikemen for +3 points per model. Pike men fight in two additional ranks, so normally 4, and 5 in a horde. Pikemen gain the Requires Two Hands special rules.

HANDGUNNERS & CROSSBOWMEN
Handgunners may be upgraded to carry Shooting Pikes for +2 points per model, (don’t know if that is what they’re called but Mathi will know, they’re in his new thread), these act as a +1 to hit modifier when shooting and act as spears in Close Combat.
(Hopefully this will encourage players to take Handgunners, which are much more common fluff wise.)
Handgunners and Crossbowmen may be upgraded to carry Paravaises for +3 points per model. These act as hard cover, reduce a unit charging the Paravaises to Hit statistic by -1, but disable the unit using them from Charging or Marching. (It would be bloody difficult with them in real life.)

GREATSWORDS
Have their strength increased to 4.

PISTOLIERS &OUTRIDERS
May be upgrade to carry spears for + 3 points per model.
If you gave them lances they would be too good, especially as they can already have barding.
Outriders may exchange their repeater handguns for blunderbusses.

HELLBLASTER
This should be more realistic, so I have compiled these rules based on a previous post in this forum. Max Range 36’’
To Hit a target 30’’ to 36’’ away is 6+ is needed,
24’’ to 30’’ 5+
18’’ to 24’’ 4+
12’’ to 18’’ 3+
6’’ to 12’’ 2+
Less than 6’’ is an auto hit.
(Again more realistic as shrapnel shots spread out more the further they travel.)

STEAM TANK
May be upgraded to carry a mortar instead of a steam gun for +50 points. The mortar requires 2 Steam Points to fire.
When the Steam Tank is destroyed, roll a D6. On a roll of 5+ the steam tank explodes. If the roll was a 5 place the small round template over the Steam Tanks. Any model even partially touched by the template takes a Strength 3 Armour Piercing hit. If a 6 was rolled, use the large round template.
(We could go the whole hog and have all the various upgrades, I just don’t think there’ that good, except maybe the Hellblaster one.)


What I also thought would be quite nice would e be to take some little countries and give them say 5 units; and a hero that must be included in the army. Kislev, Albion, Araby and Estalia would be prime examples. Just a thought as it makes it so that army can be played without having to make an entire army list.
For Example with Kislev, kossars, boyars, winged lancers that can be upgraded to gryphon legion, bear cavalry  and rangers (I made the lat one up) with the Tsars Son as the hero.

Jees, that was much longer than I thought it would be.

[Jivaine SkyWing II]

@ Warlord,

I really like the idea of the demi lancer, but then would they be able to use pistol and lance on the charge?  Similar to the old fulisade rule?

All round great ideas guys, and whoever said knights should be I4, well that's very true, why are swordsmen I4, and knights are I3?  Aren't knights supposed to be better stats then foot soldiers having proven their value in combat?

I like the idea of the Pavise for crossbowmen, but also what about for handgunners? 

[red bull]

Knights should definately be I4, and looking back at the witch hunter I made up he seems a bit expensive.

For the demi lancer how about an outrider who can exchange his repeater gun for a lance/spear and a pistol.
Gains +1 to hit as he is no longer weighed down by a shield and may fire his pistol whilst charging?

[Johedl]

Knights should definately be I4, and looking back at the witch hunter I made up he seems a bit expensive.

I do not know. I think the swordsmen are a bit to "fast" with I4. 5 pts and I3 would make them more in line with the other troops we have. The Empire's army is mustly made up with humans and I4 puts the Swordsmen at the same I as Skinks and Skaven Clanrats. I think S4 and WS4 and Ld8 is good for human kights. We should have average stats, the other races define their strenghts and weaknesses against us, and fight with our average stas in combination with our numbers, gunpowder, magic and trust in Sigmar. Skaven should be quicker and less reliable, dwarfs should be thougher and more reliabler, orcs should be thougher and less reliabler, goblins should be less reliable and elves should be better but just as thought as we are (And for every 18 years old Halberdier that kills an 100 years old elven spearman we laugh and they cry).

[Derek Contyre]

Empire Army List

GENERALS & CAPTAINS
The order ‘March and Fire!’ is too good, ‘Move and Fire!’ would be better as handguns and crossbows are move-or-fire.
If the army contains a General, one unit of Greatswords may be taken as a core choice.

Hmm, not too keen on the core choice anymore, especially as we don't use "choices" per say, rather than points allowances. I would like to see a Greatsword "bodyguard" option with +1 WS, S and A, for a points increase of course. But the General must join this unit and cannot leave it voluntarily if there is models left in the unit. Also, while the general is alive the unit automatically passes any fear, terror and panic tests it has to take.

TEMPLAR GRAND MASTER
Any unit of Knights joined by the Templar Grand Master gains the Devastating Charge special rule.

Interesting, I like it. but I can see Brettonians getting this over us.

WITCH HUNTER
Cost 50 points. Profile: Attacks 3, Initiative 5, Ballistic Skill 3, Toughness 3, Wounds (can’t decide), Weapon Skill 4, Strength 3, Leadership 8. Equipped with a hand weapon, he may be equipped with an additional hand weapon for +5, and may also have poisoned attacks +10. May be concealed within a unit. Witch Hunters have Hatred for all magic using characters.
(I’ve tried to make him like an assassin, deadly but easy to kill.)

For those stats, and no other abilities, what is it really? A weaker captain that has a hatred rule? Make a witch hunter something unique, like an upgrade option for the captain instead, for so many points and give him hatred against any magic user/chaos variant, and maybe give him flaming attacks?

ENGINEER
May be equipped with a Hochland Long Rifle for +15 points (20 is too much, has Ballistic Skill should be as good as a Captain at 5.
May reroll 1 artillery or scatter dice for a war machine within 6’’.
Master Guidance: Any unit of Handgunners, Archers or Crossbows gain rerolls to hit when joined by an engineer.

Yes for this but make him cheaper, maybe 40pts, because what we get for 65 is not that great.

STATE TROOPS
All State Troops may be upgraded to Veterans for +2 points per model. Veterans have the Stubborn special rule.
May be upgraded to carry pistols for +1 point per model. For every 5 models in the unit, rounding up, roll a D3. The unit fires this many shots. When in Close Combat only units not engaged in Close Combat may use their pistols.
(Realistically you wouldn’t have time to fire a pistol at an enemy you’re fighting)

Yes for an option, but not for one point and only d3 every five. make it maybe three or four points for an actual pistol.

SWORDSMEN
May be upgraded to Fencers (I can’t think of a cool name for them) for +3 points per model. Fencers each have 2 attacks and the champion has 3.
Though this sounds amazing only the front rank benefit as the second (and third) ranks can only contribute 1 attack.
So 20 fencers with Full Command cost 20 and dishes out 16 attacks, where as 20 normal Swordsmen with Full Command cost 145 and dishes out 11 attacks.
These guys however could be potentially lethal if used in a horde, though it would be expensive

No. I don't like the idea of a core troop with multiple attacks, our swordsmen are good enough with their weapon skill and initiative.

HALBEDIERS
May be upgraded to wearing Heavy Armour for +1 point per model.
(Unoriginal but would seem to do the trick, especially if combined with Veteran.)

I like this idea with heavy armour, it has potential. But a distinct lack of heavy armour troops leads me to believe another elite foot troop unit is neceessary, like veteran halberdiers with full plate, ws4 s4 I4 LD8 immune to panic? for maybe 10pts.

SPEARMEN
May be upgraded to Pikemen for +3 points per model. Pike men fight in two additional ranks, so normally 4, and 5 in a horde. Pikemen gain the Requires Two Hands special rules.

And always strike first. Armour piercing.

HANDGUNNERS & CROSSBOWMEN
Handgunners may be upgraded to carry Shooting Pikes for +2 points per model, (don’t know if that is what they’re called but Mathi will know, they’re in his new thread), these act as a +1 to hit modifier when shooting and act as spears in Close Combat.
(Hopefully this will encourage players to take Handgunners, which are much more common fluff wise.)
Handgunners and Crossbowmen may be upgraded to carry Paravaises for +3 points per model. These act as hard cover, reduce a unit charging the Paravaises to Hit statistic by -1, but disable the unit using them from Charging or Marching. (It would be bloody difficult with them in real life.)

Not really that difficult to move with a big shield, I mean you train every day with it so you would know how to use it. Also they had straps that you could throw it over your shoulder to move with it.

GREATSWORDS
Have their strength increased to 4.

Yes!

PISTOLIERS &OUTRIDERS
May be upgrade to carry spears for + 3 points per model.
If you gave them lances they would be too good, especially as they can already have barding.
Outriders may exchange their repeater handguns for blunderbusses.

Spear exchange of pistol for spear or pistol for lance +2

HELLBLASTER
This should be more realistic, so I have compiled these rules based on a previous post in this forum. Max Range 36’’
To Hit a target 30’’ to 36’’ away is 6+ is needed,
24’’ to 30’’ 5+
18’’ to 24’’ 4+
12’’ to 18’’ 3+
6’’ to 12’’ 2+
Less than 6’’ is an auto hit.
(Again more realistic as shrapnel shots spread out more the further they travel.)

Possibly, it has potential. Maybe a nicer misfire chart.

STEAM TANK
May be upgraded to carry a mortar instead of a steam gun for +50 points. The mortar requires 2 Steam Points to fire.
When the Steam Tank is destroyed, roll a D6. On a roll of 5+ the steam tank explodes. If the roll was a 5 place the small round template over the Steam Tanks. Any model even partially touched by the template takes a Strength 3 Armour Piercing hit. If a 6 was rolled, use the large round template.
(We could go the whole hog and have all the various upgrades, I just don’t think there’ that good, except maybe the Hellblaster one.)

Old upgrade options, no explosion.

What I also thought would be quite nice would e be to take some little countries and give them say 5 units; and a hero that must be included in the army. Kislev, Albion, Araby and Estalia would be prime examples. Just a thought as it makes it so that army can be played without having to make an entire army list.
For Example with Kislev, kossars, boyars, winged lancers that can be upgraded to gryphon legion, bear cavalry  and rangers (I made the lat one up) with the Tsars Son as the hero.

YES! But without the must have special characters that seem to be pervading this new edition.

[Algovil]

I for one find all ideas here very interesting but actually not necessary, if we look at the army now there is good internal balance, just a few things need fixing, I go through my ideas on the different choices:

General of the Empire: Hm, tough one, he is no good choice now as the arch lector is much cheaper, maybe give him some kind of rule representing his tactical cunning, rerolling dice for the army or something.

Templar Grand Master: If he gave something extra to the unit of knights he would be fine, else, just reduce the cost by a few points!

Arch Lector and Warrior Priests: The only thing is that extra dispel dice is very powerful, maybe chanel 4+ instead, 1 chance for WP and 2 chance for AL? To compensate prayer really should work without powerdice, maybe prayers for warrior priest working on 3+ or 4+ and for Arch lector working on 2+ or 3+, that is a question of balance.

Captain of the Empre: Is quite fine?

Engineer: Looks good to me, BS5 would not hurt, at 65 points I'd take him anyday of the week for the rerolls!

Wizard lord/battle wizard: Just fine, does not need any altering

Halberdiers: Fine, heavy armour is not right for empire imo, they are more of HRE than a fuedal medieval state!

Spearmen: They really need something extra, but I am not a fan of changing too much, maybe they are alright after all, can not think of a good change, though something is needed.

Swordsmen: I3 is more like it, WS3 instead of 4 also looks better to me, with parry they have a place in the army anyway, with these nerfs they could be 5 points each, could this work?

Free company: Lower to 4 points and they could be worth taking!!

Handgunners: They are fine are they not?

Crossbowmen: They are fine! Both these have there places!

Archers/Huntsmen: Just a bit expensive, Bretonnia bowmen are 6 points with the same bs3, and they have longbows, of course you can not compare like this cause that is a strength of their army and should not be of the ours. Bretonnia bowmen are ws2 and ld5 as well, but, I would not say that 6 points is wrong! Huntsmen could well be 8 points!

Knights: Lower the cost, otherwise keep them the same, I would not mind seeing them at maybe 20 points each, with choice for Greatweapon for about 2 points! Would make lancearmed knights worthwile, while keeping the option for greatweapon armed, still cheaper than todays knights.

Greatswords: I think they are OK, I use them and do well.

Pistoliers: They are fine! Could use lowering in points by maybe just 1 or 2, OR we could let them use both pistols in close combat, or letting them fire both weapons without -1, cause there is -1 to hit now right?

Outriders: Not a fan, but they have their place.

Great Cannon: I am fine with the Cannon, it is quite unique for Empire, really a strength and should remain such

Mortar: Increase the points, is 100 to much?

Flagellants: I say they are OK, but I would not mind if they were a little bit cheaper, I never played with them so really can not say, what do you think?

Helblaster: As a lot of you suggest, I think it should be more deadly at short range, the suggestions in the thread is maybe a bit advanced, but I what about 3 different ranges, with -1 0 and +1 to hit repectively, it should also be able to stand and shoot if charged, not alway but by the rules, and then it would fire at +-0 to hit, since: shortest range = +1, and stand and shoot = -1.

Helstorm Rocket: Increase the cost just a tiny bit.

The Steam Tank: Not happy with the new rules, not because it made it better or worse but because it does not feels right beeing able to heal the stank or hit it with low strength attack. I would like to see something along these lines:
- Bring back as it was before, T6 immune to magic other then magic with strength value. See below as well!
- If the Cannon misfires do not wound the stank, that makes the cannon useless, instead an unique misfire chart maybe like this suggestion:
1-2 take 1 wound
3-4 cannot fire this turn or the next
5-6 cannot fire this turn
or we could put something fun in there, the stank running full throttle forward out of control for a turn for example!
- Maybe a special rule that the stank can not be harmed by anything with lower strength than 4-5, but this is no big thing with good armour save.
- Maybe, just maybe, another system for generating steam points.
Overall I would like to see it: Impossible to remove with one shot magic, difficult to kill but possible to harm, each wound should not lower the effectiveness as much as it does now, but still hurt it!

Of course, cost for command etc should be adjusted along with unit cost, and like they did in the new O&G book, musician should be more expensive, would like to see championupgrade cheaper instead, for example halberdier: standard bearer +8, muscian +8, champion +4. OR: standard bearer +8, musician +6, champion +6. OR just keep them all the same cost. +7 each or something.

[StealthKnightSteg]

Swordsmen: I3 is more like it, WS3 instead of 4 also looks better to me, with parry they have a place in the army anyway, with these nerfs they could be 5 points each, could this work?

Why do you want to nerf swordsmen so bad? Even now they are ranked 2nd in our state troop choice (halberds being first), lowering both I and WS will only make them a defensive unit more then they already are.

[Algovil]

Most for fluff reason, strange that they have higher Initiative than halberdiers and spearmen. Decrease in cost to compensate, they are fine as they are and I think they would be fine this way also.

[StealthKnightSteg]

Most for fluff reason, strange that they have higher Initiative than halberdiers and spearmen. Decrease in cost to compensate, they are fine as they are and I think they would be fine this way also.

Just for fluff I would keep it like that.. a small sword is faster to handle then a pole weapon like a halberd or a spear. Hence the higher I. Also they get more training in sword and shield and thus are more adapt in using them hence the WS4. Though this last bit might be contested as Halberdiers and Spearmen also get decent training in their weapons (I hope), though they also practise with hand weapon and shields (as they need to learn it if their special wepon gets destroyed or when marching and getting shot). Swordsmen only practice with hand weapon / shield combo so they might be a bit more proficient with them.

[drew]

A fluff reason for swordsmen being ws4 is that swords cost more to produce, and therefore those wielding them would be expected to practice a little more to make the most of the costs.

A side note, I think flagellants should be t4 or get a 6+ ward as their faith compels them to fight on despite most wounds. (Price hike as appropriate)