Topic: Questions on pike and shot tactics and other units

[Revenant J J]

Hey guys new to the forum and I guess in some regards new to the hobby as I rarely have the time to collect and play even though I have been into warhammer since I was 8-9 and I'm 22 now. I very much like the Empire due to the armies look and attire harkening to something akin to the forces deployed during the Great Italian Wars in the first half of the 16th century, a nice blend of late gothic medieval and early renaissance tones that lend themselves well to the themes of gritty fantasy but also the genres of clock-punk and steam-punk.

So what I wanted to ask those who have the new book and with maybe a few games under their belt with it is how does Pike and Shot tactics hold up with the new detachment rules, unit rules and point costs?

My other question is if I ever got round to doing a Empire army I want todo a strongly themed army based on the province of Hochland and I would like your thoughts and views on the strengths and weaknesses of some of the units I plan to take that I think will fit this theme. So if you would kindly give me your input the units are:
 
Archers, Engineers, Handgunners, Huntsmen, Markus Wulfhart, Outriders and Pistoliers.

Kind regards,

Revenant

[Folken]

Hello welcome to the forum.  Have one on Midaski's tab. 
I am not entirely sure what you mean by pike and shot.  Could you clarify?

[Revenant J J]

Thank you for the warm welcome

Sorry yes let me clarify. Pike and shot was a historical formation and tactic made up of a large square formation of pikemen in the centre with smaller square units of arquebusiers or musketeers at each corner of the main parent unit (the pikemen).

I was wondering if it was possible to create this somewhat with the detachments rule and if it was fairly effective? E.g large block of pikemen or spearmen backed up on either side by two smaller units of handgunners.

I also find it quite thematically fitting regarding the look and feel of the army to employ this formation and tactic.

[Le Pistolet]

With Spears being nice and cheap you definitely have the option to have a big pike block or two as well as all the other elements of the army book, so there's no problem there.

However Handgunners have gone up and small arms shooting isn't that great nowadays. I personally still use 8 Handgunners in a detachment because I found the supporting fire pretty good, but I wouldn't fork out on two units of them. Perhaps instead pick Militia or Halberdiers to represent Skirmishers or pike breaking units respectively and they would give your big blocks extra support in combat with their charge.

Detachments are quite good now so a combined arms block could be quite effective.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Well....as we now get the -1 to hit for stand and shoot reactions and most of the times it will be on long range I fear it makes no sense to apply pike and shot tactics. Better to go close combat detachments.

[Revenant J J]

is that -1 to hit for stand and shoot when the unit is part of a detachment or in general? Also is there anyway a Warrior Priest could augment the supporting unit with say hatred?

[Fandir Nightshade]

hatred and the buffs of the battle prayers only work in cc also the hurricanums +1. Only prayer buff for ranged units is the flaming attack one.


You always get -1 for stand and shoot

an option you can use is putting a witch hunter in the handgunner detachment that way they only stand and shoot on short range and will hit on 5+ still not an optimal use and very pricey.

[Folken]

You can certainly try this though as is said, the viability of it is debatable.  Enchanted blades in lore of metal can certainly tip the odds with this(given the spell applies on both your and your opponents turn you can use it for the stand and shoot) but in that case you would want to use crossbowmen instead of handgunners.

[Captain Schweinkreiger]

I always thought the key with handgunner detachments was that usually the enemy would be charging the parent unit instead of the detachment, usually because of the threat of the main unit flank charging in the next round. 

[TheElectorCount43]

Try it, then tell us about it

[Revenant J J]

You can certainly try this though as is said, the viability of it is debatable.  Enchanted blades in lore of metal can certainly tip the odds with this(given the spell applies on both your and your opponents turn you can use it for the stand and shoot) but in that case you would want to use crossbowmen instead of handgunners.

I will keep this one in mind! Guess I could always proxy my handgunners as crossbowmen to keep the theme of the arquebusiers and pikemen. Could any of you comment on the other units I listed? What's your view on them within the new book. Also Pistoliers could never fire both their pistols at the same time could they, no extra attack? Or do they benefit from a brace of pistols even though they are mounted...

[Revenant J J]

hatred and the buffs of the battle prayers only work in cc also the hurricanums +1. Only prayer buff for ranged units is the flaming attack one.


You always get -1 for stand and shoot

an option you can use is putting a witch hunter in the handgunner detachment that way they only stand and shoot on short range and will hit on 5+ still not an optimal use and very pricey.

Do most ranged units suffer at least a -1 one all the time then when they are firing? For stand and shoot does it's wording mean when simply a unit is advancing in your general direction or when it's about to charge you?

Haven't played a 8th edition game yet so I do apologise if these are no brainer questions.

[twotailedkit]

the modifiers to shooting

-1 moving and shooting in the same turn (some weapons are move OR! fire)
-1 firing at long range (over half full distance 12" handguns, 15" crossbows)


-1 stand and shoot (in reaction to a charge at the unit with the ranged weapon, or in detachment rules the parent unit.)


-1 target behind soft cover
-2 target behind hard cover

hope that helps 

[TheElectorCount43]

You can certainly try this though as is said, the viability of it is debatable.  Enchanted blades in lore of metal can certainly tip the odds with this(given the spell applies on both your and your opponents turn you can use it for the stand and shoot) but in that case you would want to use crossbowmen instead of handgunners.

I will keep this one in mind! Guess I could always proxy my handgunners as crossbowmen to keep the theme of the arquebusiers and pikemen. Could any of you comment on the other units I listed? What's your view on them within the new book. Also Pistoliers could never fire both their pistols at the same time could they, no extra attack? Or do they benefit from a brace of pistols even though they are mounted...

They use the brace of pistol shooting rules, but don't get an extra attack.