Topic: Tactical Decision Game 1.2 (Emp Turn 2 vs Ogrebus)

[Fandir Nightshade]

Hmmm I would try something different.

Fandirs Masterplan of victory
Q1 Stank should charge the leadbelchers, first of all to get out of the way of the ogrebus second they don´t get stand and shoot reaction, third if he manages to ram the unit they most likely will be evaporated and he will be out of danger....at least for another turn.

Q2/3 I would retreat with the halberdier and the greatsword detachment as far as possible to avoid a charge from the ogrebus and try to put the archer detachment in the way (if it is possible hard to tell from the pic), if it is possible we might be able to reform the archers into a single file that will force the mornfangs to charge into the center of the battlefield and also shoot the sabretusk with the archers. (together with the archers of the mage bunker he should die. ) If we can´t use our archers to distract the mournfangs away the halberdiers should advance and stand in an angle towards them that will carry them off the board away from the greatswords or reform them in a way that the greatswords can see them.

Q4 Likewise I would retreat with the halberdiers the 2 inches and keep the facing towards the ogrebus. the archer bunker with the mage could advance towards the wizard tower out of LOS of the Ogrebus (I guess we should be close enough to get the loremaster...no?)

Q5 Demigryphons should charge the ironblaster and end its miserable life.

[commandant]

I think that we should insert the halberdier detachment between the greatswords and the mourfangs so that he has to charge the halberdiers next turn.   The greatswords should be re-positioned and the halberdier detachment should be positioned in such a way that if her does charge the halberdiers then he will offer the flank of the mourfangs to the greatswords.   With the BSB and L8 stubbron re-rollable the Halberdiers should withstand the slaugher (it is unlikely he will kill them all) and the greatswords will be able to finish off the mournfangs next turn.

The Stank should ram itself into the leadbelchers, though if we think that we can get re-growth off on the stank there is an argument for leaving it where it is.

The DGKs should charge the ironblaster (of course)

The archer detachment should charge the sabertusk.   

The guthorde (which is not a horde I think as it is only 3 orges across) is our biggest problem.   If we leave the Stank where it is then the guthorde will have to charge the stank.   That should buy us a turn, though it will cost us a stank.

The other question is do we think we can magic the mourfangs to death.   We know that we can't magic the guthorde to dead but the mournfangs are a different bet.   If so we should move the greatswords up to the wall, leave the detachment behind just in case and try and figure how to stop the guthorde going around the wall.   (the best way I think is to position the halberdiers so that they will be presented with a flank if the guthorde tries to go around the wall.

I think we should reform the halberdier horde and hide them behind the house.   Then we can see what the winds of magic bring .

[commandant]

However, the IB's Grapeshot attack is at Str 10 and could do some significant damage to our Knights if he rolls high on the arty die for the number of Str 10 shots.  In my opinion, not worth the risk-  we should take the easy points and get rid of the pesky 'Blaster. 

The IB's Grapeshot attack is not that frightening really.   Yes it is Str 10 but it is still only a max of 10 shots all of which need to roll to hit. Grapeshot is not the beast it used to be. 

[Fandir Nightshade]

There will be no grapeshot it is slow to fire.

[commandant]

I am aware, just pointing out that grapeshot (even Orge grapeshot) isn't that big a deal.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Could the greatswords re direct onto the iron blaster if the sabretusk decided to flee? If so what is the range?

Bruiser tried to get out of the LOS of the Greatswords but he came just a little bit shy.  So the Sabretusk is unlikely to flee to keep the GS off the 'Fangs.

Also are the mournfangs in range of general/bsb?

At this point, the Mournfangs are way out of the BSB/Gen's Leadership in the bus.  However, it is more than 6" away from the Sabretusk and won't have to roll panic if the pussycat dies.

I am aware, just pointing out that grapeshot (even Orge grapeshot) isn't that big a deal.

The grapeshot is not anything to be overly concerned about it...but I mentioned it because it is better to charge the IB than the Gnoblars just to avoid the possibility of a 10x Str 10 salvo.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Empire 2nd Turn Charges:  The Current Vote

Question 1 (STank)     
     (1) Charge the Ogrebus                             (Soap, MrA, Zak, Zif)
     (2) Charge the Leadbelchers                      (George, Grifter, Empire-Ulric, Fandir, Comm, HHG)
     (3) Move towards and shoot the ‘Blaster
     (4) Move towards and shoot the ‘Fangs
     (5) Move towards and shoot the Ogrebus

Question 2 (Greatswords)     
     (1) Charge the Sabretusk to Hold                (Zak poss, Zif)
     (2) Charge the Sabretusk to Overrun           (Zak poss)
     (3) Reform to face the Mournfangs              (Soap, George, Grifter, MrA, Fandir, Comm, HHG)
     (4) Move forward, but not charge                (Empire-Ulric)     

Question 3 (GS Halb Det)     
     (1) Charge the Mournfangs                         (Soap, Grifter, Zif)
     (2) Move into blocking position                   (Empire-Ulric, Zak)
     (3) Move in conj with GS reform                  (George, MrA, Fandir, Comm, HHG)
   
Question 4 (Halberd Horde)     
     (1) Stay put (or move back)                         (Fandir)
     (2) Move forward                                        (Zif)
     (3) Bus Reform, move out of Ogre LOS          (Soap, George, Grifter, MrA, Empire-Ulric, Comm, HHG)
     (4) Bus Reform, move in Ogrebus LOS           (Zak)

***As always, if I got something wrong, let me know.


I like what you are thinking Fandir about clearing out the charge threat range of the Ogrebus.  My thoughts are:

Q1.  (2) Charge the Leadbelchers.  Time to give them some metal of our own.
Q2.  (3) Reform to face the 'Fangs...and move over 2" after the reform to get away from the Gutstar.
Q3.  (3) Move up to get in the 'Fangs face to force that charge in relation to the GS reform.
Q4.  (3) Reform and move the Halbs up.

The Archers will fire up the Sabretusk and should have enough to pin cushion it.

I emptied the charge threat range of the Ogrebus.  The best he has is to roll an 11+ to charge the GS.  Otherwise, he has nothing!

Here is a graphical depiction of what I am thinking (looks kind of ugly, but it gets the job done) that incorporates the current winners in each category that we have right now:

Lots more time to get votes in and shift what we are leaning towards!  This is a critical round...lets get it right!

[Fandir Nightshade]

Why didn´t you move the wizards archer unit towards the tower...best would be  outside of los of the ogrebus and the gnoblars...we would get loremaster I think AND we could keep the stank in range for +1 wound healing...or not?

[sammay23]

I think we may be in okay shape, due mostly to our dominance in magic.

I believe we really need to decide whether our battle strategy depends on killing the Guthorde, or avoiding it and killing everything else. I, for one, believe that we should avoid to the best of our ability. There are plenty of points out there with the Mournfangs, Leadbelchers, and two IBs.

DGKs charge the IB. No brainer.

Q1) I'd try for the Stank into the LBs. All three dice. It reaches, great. It doesn't, fine. It'll still draw fire next round.

Q3) I think we absolutely charge the MFs with our halberdier detachment. We also plan on buffing the S**t out of it in our magic phase. We actually have a shot at winning that combat with a few wounds and some good buffs. FTStone will actually help a lot, particularly if they get desperate and decide to use the banner's breath weapon. In any event, the MFs won't wipe the unit, will be stuck in combat, may win in the next round, but will not be able to overrun. It's by far the best scenario we could have right now. We win that combat and break them, and the game is wide open.

Q4) As long as we are confident we can hide the unit using the tower, I'm all for option 3. If that's not a possibility, I think we quick reform our big halberdier block, give the Guthorde our backsides, and march towards the board edge, putting as much distance between them and us as we can. I'd like to move the archers behind the luminark, if they can fit... hard to tell here. Make sure our lvl 4 is within buffing distance of the halberd detachment.

I think we leave the sabretusk alone. It's annoying, but we may be able to drop it with another volley. It's not worth putting the greatswords or luminark in to, in my opinion.

Q2) Lastly, I think we reform the Greatswords into a bus and move them up to the bulwark, between the sabretusk and the Mournfangs. Once there, sure, they'll have their flank exposed to the MFs, but we'll have them in combat for the next two rounds, by which time, we will be able to charge either the ironblaster or the leadbelchers, with good odds of success, unless the Butcher moves them. Either one is an excellent matchup for the Greatswords, and it gets them away from the Gutstar.

Victory comes to us via the DGKs and Greatswords. The DGKs drive the right flank ironblaster off the board this turn, most likely. They reform and, by turn 4, have the leadbelchers in easy charge range. They're aces against LBs. The greatswords charge the Ironblaster on the left flank in turn 3, unless it's moved, in which case we can assess charging the Leadbelchers, or reforming into the MFs.

We sacrifice the archer units to the Gutstar, and keep the halberds intact, either skittering them along the board edge, or charging the gnoblars to put the tower between them and the star. Points-wise, with the Ironblasters and kitties, we'll get 400. With the LBs, we're up to 650 or more. I think we could pull out a minor victory.

Or, of course, everything could change by next turn

[commandant]

Why reform the greatswords like that?   The mournfangs should not kill all of the halberdiers in one turn and now the greatswords can not charge the mournfang flank in the next turn.   their position is okay but they needed to be reformed in order to catch the flank, at a different angle I think.

If anything the halberdiers detachment should be placed back a bit in order to ensure that the greatswords can get to the flank.

[zakalwe]

I shall revise my suggestions in light of the new diagram.

Looks pretty solid, but i would rather sacrifice an archer unit to guarantee we keep the Gutstar away, rather than risk an 11-12 charge possibility.

Move the Wizards archer in such a way that the ogres cannot overrun into them if the hit the archer detachment.  Same with the luminark.

charge with the halberdiers, and move the greatswords in such a way that they can join the fight against the mournfangs.

Of course this all depends on the Stanks charge, if that fails our normal movement will be affected...

So charges, ST-> leadbelchers   and Halberd detachment -> mournfang

[George]

Just realised the Dragonhide Banner on the Mournfang only work when they successfully charge (though I assume the breath weapon is fine still)
I would revise my plan to charge the halberd detatchment in and reform with the GS.....it feels risky, but it will save him rerolling all his 1's on his AS when in combat with teh GSwords.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Why didn´t you move the wizards archer unit towards the tower...best would be  outside of los of the ogrebus and the gnoblars...we would get loremaster I think AND we could keep the stank in range for +1 wound healing...or not?

I didn't like the distance they could move...the archers have to move before the Halbs, otherwise the Halbs can't reform into a bus because the Archers are in the way.

The Archers have to swing wide to get out of the way of the horde's future move window....so going that way they would end up way out there looking at some Gnoblars closing in.

I liked the feel of it better when they crept back to the inside, outside of Ogrebus charge range.

And as far as Loremaster from the Wiz Tower...it is only a 3" range.  We have to get mighty close to get the benefits.

Id rather sacrifice an archer unit to guarantee we keep the Gutstar away, rather than risk an 11-12 charge possibility.

Move the Wizards archer in such a way that the ogres cannot overrun into them if the hit the archer detachment.  Same with the luminark.

I tried some different combinations of movement with the Archers and Lum as charge bait.  I didn't really like the distances they could make (8 & 7 inches), the angle they could achieve, the effect they could have.  I am not a fan of giving him any chance-  even an 11 or 12+- to ruin our day-  but I couldn't find a better solution using the charges picked by the voters.

I will look at it again, depending on how the voting goes, to find the best way forward.

---------------------------------------
Another way forward appeared to me when I was looking at options.  I am going to present it as food for thought:

Instead of hiding from Ogrebus, another option is to get in its face, but present it with shitty options.  The Halbs turn into a bus for an anvil, the Greatswords charge the Sabretusk and Overrun (doing the Halb det combat first before moving away) creating a nice L defense.  The Ogrebus can charge either one or the other but then will get hit in the flank by the one it doesn't charge.  If the STank lives, it can turn and ram the Ogrebus once it is done with the 'Belchers.

I would buff the hell out of the Greatswords in this scenario...we want the Halb det to do well against the 'Fangs, and we want the Ogrebus to hit the Halb bus, not the GS in the L defense.

This would force a delay action with the Mournfangs.  The small Archer detachment would swing that way and the Lum could go as well-  giving us 3 turns to deal with the Ogrebus before we have to turn attention back to the 'Fangs.

Here is what it looks like:

The Battle Rager inside me likes this scenario because we are going to get a piece of the Ogrebus.  It will take some finesse though...

***Remember, you can change your vote at any time.  If you haven't voted in TDG 1 at all yet, get off your 'net couch, hit the button 'Reply' and give us your thoughts.   

[commandant]

The cat will just flee though

[George]

The cat will just flee though

no it won't....its blocking the GS charge on the mournfang....if it fled that's the redirect we would make.

@HHG
As much as I like the agressive stance I don't think it would work out as planned.
I think Bruiser would charge the Halberds, and send teh iron blaster in against the GS. It has a fair chance of actually winning that first round of combat and holding the GS off from charging the flank of the gutstar....this gives the gutstar 3 combats to mince the halberds.

[MrAbyssal]

The Battle Rager inside me likes this scenario because we are going to get a piece of the Ogrebus.  It will take some finesse though...

I think even with the current votes we'll get a piece of the Ogrebus. The thing we need to take into account is the Mournfang Cavalry running rampant through our back line and raping our poor wizard and I think the current option deals with this better. Once the Mournfangs have been dealt with, all our main combat units can start moving against the Ogrebus.

I'm still worried about the 12" charge on the Leadbelchers. It will certainly achieve more, but only if we make the charge. If we fail the charge we lose the Steam Tank almost guaranteed and probably won't even distract the Leadbelchers from firing at whatever they like as the remaining Ironblaster should be able to take the Steam Tank out. The way I see it we have:

1) Charge the Ogrebus and go out in a blaze of glory. With some heavy buffing on the tank it may even survive a turn but will at least damage the bus ready for the Halberdiers and Demigryphs to get in.

2) Charge the Leadbelchers and make the charge, destroying them, taking heat off some of our line but being well out of range for any healing from our wizard. Will need luck to survive but if it does and can get back in range of the wizard can play a huge part in the late game.

3) Fail the charge on the Leadbelchers, be stranded, shot by the Ironblaster and achieve nothing of import.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Roll with the ...not the Battlerager option.



This one should work out fine....we have some units to block/divert the bus and make him suffer in turn 3 maybe even with a charge from the steam tank to his back (those ironblasters have to roll a misfire at some point...I hope the 1 wound stank survives).

[Noght]

BTW, the Ironguts can charge the Halberdiers in the above pic.  Guys on West edge of IG units can see the Halbs and the free wheel get's them lined up.

[sammay23]

BTW, the Ironguts can charge the Halberdiers in the above pic.  Guys on West edge of IG units can see the Halbs and the free wheel get's them lined up.

I'm glad you mentioned this, Noght, because I was feeling pretty certain my regular opponents would argue that the bus can see the horde. That's why I proposed reforming and marching away towards the board edge.

[Fandir Nightshade]

You guys have to consider two things first it is an abstraction los and ranges are not100% real second even if the bus can see them if they need a 13 they cant reach them

[Holy Hand Grenade]

As much as I like the agressive stance I don't think it would work out as planned.
I think Bruiser would charge the Halberds, and send teh iron blaster in against the GS.

    Yeah, the Ironblaster in the side of the GS was the one variable I couldn't account for.  I posted it to stir discussion.  The rest of the battle would be a wild ride...but the safer bet is the one we are working towards. 

Except now...

BTW, the Ironguts can charge the Halberdiers in the above pic.  Guys on West edge of IG units can see the Halbs and the free wheel get's them lined up.

I'm glad you mentioned this, Noght, because I was feeling pretty certain my regular opponents would argue that the bus can see the horde. That's why I proposed reforming and marching away towards the board edge.

I am glad that you mentioned it too-  my bad (one of the reasons I love doing the TDG, fixing errors in planning/judgment!)

Normally a unit uses its wheel right away when charging...but in this case, the long-ass bus could move forward, execute a wheel, and hit it head on.  They do have LOS from the left-most models in the unit.

For Q4, option (3) is not going to get us out of the Ogrebus' LOS based on the above.  Re-vote, or give me another option.

This movement phase is a tricky one.  No easy solution...and in reality we would have to be making it in a short amount of time.
At least for the TDG we have a few more days!

So far in the lead we have-  STank charge the Leadbelchers, Greatswords reform towards the 'Fangs, a mix of thoughts on the GS detachment, and a re-vote on the Halberd horde options.

----------------
So Noght, now that you poked a hole in one option's armour, what are your thoughts?

[sammay23]

I'm just going to reiterate that I think we'd be fools not to charge the MFs with our stubborn halberd detachment. There will never be a better opportunity for that detachment to impact the outcome of the battle.

1) We get the +1 to CR.

2) We negate the dragon banner's re-roll (this is a big deal).

3) We have our magic phase coming, in which to buff that unit, which is the only one that really needs combat buffing.

4) the MFs are out of range of their general and their BSB. There will never be a better chance to break them.

Granted, there is no guarantee of victory here, but the cost is quite low, and the potential benefit is tremendous.

Just putting in my plug here.

edit: some math

If we can get the halberds buffed with Flesh to Stone:

We take 12 WS 3, S5 attacks. Six hit, three wound.

We take 12 WS 3, S4 attacks. Six hit, two wound.

We take 3 S5 stomps. All hit, 1.5 wound.

So, that's about six wounds to make up in CR. A tough thing to do.

10 WS 3, S4 attacks with rerolls. 7.5 hit. 3.25 wound. 1 failed AS.

With hammer of sigmar?

up to about 5 wounds, and 2 failed AS.

With shield of faith?

we save two of those six wounds... now we're talking.

So, basically, this only really works if we can buff the crap out of our detachment, which, I think, we can.

I'm still in favor of charging. With the right buffs, we might win. At the worst, we pin them in combat without their re-rolls.

[Empire - Ulric]

With the revelation that we cannot get the Halberds out of the LoS of the Ogre Bus I change my votes to......

The Battlerager Option

It seems to offer the most flexibility, and it puts the onus on the Ogre Player to make some choices. We just need to buff the crap out of the GS on our turn AND Pew Pew the Iron Blaster to hopefully knock a couple of wounds off it so maybe the GS can finish it off if it charges them.

Grrr...... Dweller's is such a useless spell in this match up! I wonder why we didn't trade it in?

[zifnab0]

I'm just going to reiterate that I think we'd be fools not to charge the MFs with our stubborn halberd detachment. There will never be a better opportunity for that detachment to impact the outcome of the battle.

Agreed.  Also, I think the MF get impact hits when they charge.  If the MF charge us it is possible that the unit will be killed to a man, leaving them free to run around in our backfield.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

I'm just going to reiterate that I think we'd be fools not to charge the MFs with our stubborn halberd detachment.

I think you are right Sammay and Z-  it is just getting everything else to fit.

Below is my latest Battle Chronicler madness.

The plan here is to push the tank as a speedbump Q1 (5) (move and shoot, but try not to charge-  so even if the STank dies, the Ogrebus can only Overrun into empty space and can't freely charge like he would be able to if we charged and died)  I reformed the Halbs, but kept them in a horde facing out of the Overrun range of the Gutstar.  We can reform them into a bus later if we need to.

This allows us time to deal with the Mournfangs and get our Demis into the action.  The archers and Lum are two more units that can be "fed" up the middle to the Ogrebus to keep it slowed down.  Sooner or later, our Halbs, GS, and Demis will have the Ogrebus by the "Ogreballs."

***I will update the votes again, once people re-post their thoughts/votes.