Topic: Handgunners vs Crossbows vs Archers

[The Peacemaker]

I prefer gunners because I already know people will be coming toward my machines and the Armor Piercing helps against Fast Cav, though I reserve the right to change my mind and swap to Crossbows.

I would love to advise you to just go with the Crossbows because of their better range but I know once you do this you'll shoot at some fast cavalry, get 3 wounds on them and your opponent rolls a couple 6's for his armour save! It happens every time, and you'll be cursing that you took out the handgunners for the xbows. lol.

[Noght]

I think I'm going to put 20 of each in a list and see what happens just for the fun of it.   The Xbows and Handgunners with Banners and the Archers in a unit of 10 with 2 5 man Detachments.

I figure you can filth the rest of the list out and no one will complain right?

[The Peacemaker]

I think I'm going to put 20 of each in a list and see what happens just for the fun of it.   The Xbows and Handgunners with Banners and the Archers in a unit of 10 with 2 5 man Detachments.

I figure you can filth the rest of the list out and no one will complain right?

Well if its for fun why don't you up it to 30 in a unit with a warrior priest and a BSB and watch them shoot stuff and then win combat! heh heh.

[Noght]

I think I'm going to put 20 of each in a list and see what happens just for the fun of it.   The Xbows and Handgunners with Banners and the Archers in a unit of 10 with 2 5 man Detachments.

I figure you can filth the rest of the list out and no one will complain right?

Well if its for fun why don't you up it to 30 in a unit with a warrior priest and a BSB and watch them shoot stuff and then win combat! heh heh.

Sir, that is the whole enchilada for Empire Ballistic Skill shooting available for my Lists!  Though I did just acquire 10 Huntsmen and am in the process of painting 10 more!

[sebster]

Spam a bunch of level 1 fire wizzards and take the signature spell.
If you spam enough you'll roll some 6's for channeling.

I guarantee these wizzards will cause more kills than the crossbowmen or handgunners.

That's not a very good example, because you have a limited number of power dice, and so all those level 1 wizards are not only chewing up points, they're also chewing up power dice.

Not that I'm defending ranged troops, because they're overpriced, crossbows and handgunners could probably be cut by 2 points a model.  But we should be fair in our comparisons.

[Captain Alard Krusen]

I'm new to Empire, but I think Crossbowmen and Handgunners would be too inexpensive at 7 points per model. If I remember correctly, one of those units was at 8 pts per model last edition, and that was fine by me. I only think 9 points is too much because they have BS3. This, combined with the -1 modifier for long range shots makes them often a terrible investment (this coming from my experience fighting against them.) I had a friend running lots of both xbows and gunners trying to do a long-range strategy: I think he would have fared better if our entire group didn't have T4 armies like Ogres, Orcs, Dwarves, and Warriors. And for t3 armies like undead and goblin-heavy lists, the enemy is too numerous for 9 point models with BS3 to be chopping into in the first place.

I'm going to build and paint units of both for my army, and field them because I think they make an Empire army feel complete. I don't think I'd use them competitively, and although I was against archers at first I keep hearing good things about their usefulness in screening and redirecting.

As for the original topic, in the debate between xbows and handguns, I've found myself flip-flopping all the time on it. I like xbows range, and I like the idea of an Empire Army having a regiment of them, but I also feel the handgunners would be just as valued by a general. This is all fluff talk, of course, though when it comes down to rules I'd run xbows against my one friend's orc army and handgunners versus my other friends' WoC and Dwarf armies. Against Elves - well, wounding on 3's outside of close combat would be an interesting concept, considering how much t4 I run into. I can't wait to have my army built so I can see how wrong I am on all my ideas! 

[Windelov]

Spam a bunch of level 1 fire wizzards and take the signature spell.
If you spam enough you'll roll some 6's for channeling.

I guarantee these wizzards will cause more kills than the crossbowmen or handgunners.

That's not a very good example, because you have a limited number of power dice, and so all those level 1 wizards are not only chewing up points, they're also chewing up power dice.

Very good point often overlooked in mathhammer!

Furthermore, the fact that by using that single powerdice you still have to roll a 4+ with a range of 24". This I would say was comparable to a crossbowmans aim (30 vs 24 range, 5+ vs 4+ to hit at long range). A Lvl 1 is 65 points, which confers to 7 crossbow men.  So its basicly 7 (average of 2d6) hits on a 4+ (casting) by magic vs. 7 hits on 4/5+ with better range (but not flamming) by crossbows.

In this aspect BS seems fair priced, and then you have to add that your wizard Lord have one less powerdice to make his 200 points worth of magic worth while. 

 

[No Tanks]

Handgunners have a small advantage that many don't take note of.

If you've given the marksman a repeater pistol then suddenly every stand-and-shoot the unit make is resolved at the range of shortest range weapon. Suddenly your handguns are always firing at short range when stand-and-shooting.

Might not be much, but is extra sneaky

[Windelov]

Handgunners have a small advantage that many don't take note of.

If you've given the marksman a repeater pistol then suddenly every stand-and-shoot the unit make is resolved at the range of shortest range weapon. Suddenly your handguns are always firing at short range when stand-and-shooting.

Might not be much, but is extra sneaky

(I assume you mean brace of pistols, as the marksman cannot be equipped with a repeater pistol. )

Just remember that you are putting 24 points into that marksman (9 for standard trooper, 5 for brace and 10 for the marksman upgrade), and that model will most likely only shoot during the S&S due to the 12" range. So you're basicly paying 24 points or roughly the same as 3 handgunners for increasing the to hit chance by 1 on a S&S and 2 extra shots duing that S&S. If you use 'em in units of 10, that confers to  2-3 extra hits (including the 1 by the marksman) = 1-2 wounds vs T3 troops with 5+ armour save.  Ofcourse this might just be enough to tricker the panic test, but in my opinion, it is only worth it when getting to fire on swordsmasters or other expensive-but-fragile units.

I'm not saying that it isn't worth it, just that you gotta be pretty damn sure you get to S&S a coupple of times for it to be worth it. I like to keep my BS shooters cheap and small as I see no clear benefit of larger units. Besides shooting, IMO they work better as speed bumps/redirectors than actually fighting units.

 

[csjarrat]

yeah only time i take large units of shooters is with HE archers. they still have ASF, can take LA and volley fire. it aint great, but you gotta get the 25% somehow!
as for empire, i own 30 handgunners and 20 xbows but just cant see how taking 30 handgunners in one unit would be useful. deployed 15x2 they'll be really really wide, which will cause issues for deployment, and moving units will cause LoS issues for the shooters.
@ 10 wide they lose a rank of (expensive) shots but are more manageable in width and gain horde attacks.
any reforming means you dont shoot, which is kinda the point of the unit. i'm just not sure how you would use a static unit that large to good effect. a priest in the unit would boost it in combat significantly, but you'd need to get the ward and re-roll wound spells off which you just can't guarantee, especially if your opponent has a reasonable magic defense coupled with a modicum of common sense.

i really think the new book missed a few tricks for BS based shooting.
archers should have been given the option to rank _or_ skirmish and gunners/xbows given an expensive option to fire in three ranks (character/unit upgrade). it would have been so fluffy to have ranked units of handgunners "first rank fire!, second rank, fire!" lol

[Uryens de Crux]

A unit of 20 handguners will hold a corner against any light flanking forces, and will put a dent in any heavy knights to boot.

Well worth the points IMO - especially in larger games.

[commandant]

It all depends on what you mean by "worth the points"

[Windelov]

It all depends on what you mean by "worth the points"

Indeed

These threads grow into absurdity as we do not define the task, and thereby the primary endpoint, by which we aim to evaluate efficacy by.

In my opinion the aim of BS shooting changed with the new edition. It is simply absurd to evaluate BS shooting vs points killed of horde models. Slightly exaggerated, it is like comparing a car by its ability to toast bread on the manifold.

[Baluc]

It all depends on what you mean by "worth the points"

Indeed

These threads grow into absurdity as we do not define the task, and thereby the primary endpoint, by which we aim to evaluate efficacy by.

In my opinion the aim of BS shooting changed with the new edition. It is simply absurd to evaluate BS shooting vs points killed of horde models. Slightly exaggerated, it is like comparing a car by its ability to toast bread on the manifold.

I can agree with this, it all stems from the "get their points back" mentality, which has little to nothing to do with how the game is designed.

[csjarrat]

ok to clarify, what i mean is:
handgunners dont really make a good all-round unit for playing games of warhammer with.
they work better in my experience as smaller units, focussed purely on shooting.

to use a large block of them introduces problems with width (issues with deployment, line of sight relative to other models having to move etc) to maximise their shooting potential.
being wide hurts their combat ability (which is pretty meagre to start with), but being narrow impacts their shooting ability (which is expensive and niche, shooting is ultimately what you are taking them for. spears and halberds are much cheaper and fight better).
with penalties to firing due to movement (ie no firing at all) and the cost of character support to offset their meagre statistics and equipment, i dont see how they can be useful in large units.

[The Peacemaker]

Quote "stuff about handgunners earning points through kills"

The roll of units changes with each edition. Previously they killed off a few guys from the enemy's ranks, and ranks is what won combat back then. In 8th edition BRB we have 2-3 ranks attacking, Hordes, Steadfast, etc... so the amount they need to kill to reduce enemy ranks to help the rest of the army is alot! Otherwise their 2nd duty is to kill off enemy flankers or smaller units.
Then 8th edition Army book came out and the points went up, not just for missile infantry but for pretty much everything else. And the amount of damage our missile units went slightly down because of the stand and shoot rule for detachments.

Xbows and Handgunners were borderline not very good in the old army book. Now their points increased and damage reduced - their role hasn't changed, they are needed to whittle down enemy hordes or take out small enemy flankers.

The whole question is Points vs Role. Not Points vs Kill
Does the amount of points for a missile unit justify the role they fulfill? 
5 archers isn't going to kill anything. But their role isn't to kill, its too re-direct and they do it very well. Infantry hordes/busses need to hold in combat more than they need to kill, they still have to inflict a few wounds because that's what combat is all about.  But if you want something dead you take cavalry like knights or demi-gryphs because when they charge their role is too kill stuff.

So do Handgunners, Crossbows, and Archers fulfill their roles? and what roles are those? I believe that is the question for this thread.
I've looked at the role that the OP wishes to use handgunners for(warmachine protectors) and it might work out, it might not. I'm interested to see the results in his future games.

[csjarrat]

So do Handgunners, Crossbows, and Archers fulfill their roles? and what roles are those? I believe that is the question for this thread.
I've looked at the role that the OP wishes to use handgunners for(warmachine protectors) and it might work out, it might not. I'm interested to see the results in his future games.

i think you're right about the direction of the thread, role is more important than "getting their points back"
let me get the ball rolling then, here's how i personally see the roles of the shooters:

-crossbows, useful at thinning down enemy shooters due to their 30" range. will outrange shortbows, bows, handguns.
good at taking down flanking/harassment units (lightly armoured) like eagles due to range and S4 when set up with good fire lanes.

-handguns, useful at thinning down small units of well armoured elites due to S4 and AP, chaos warriors/brett knights etc. these elites will be advancing into combat, so range isnt as much of an issue. these also face competition from outriders, who benefit from vanguard and a 5+save but are not core.

-archers, useful as small detachments for re-directing. useful as a character bunker. useful as warmachine protectors (can move AND fire). useful in larger units for anchoring a flank in woodlands (stubborn in woods)

the roles for handgunners and crossbows are slightly overlapping, but niche enough that there is a distinct choice to be made if you are tailoring your list to a specific opponent.
i do not think they are particularly cost efficient, as a helblaster can put out more shots at a higher strength with AP and can pivot + fire.
as core options, 'gunners and xbows have some merit.

archers have a much more diverse application, a lower price per model and greater tactical flexibility on the field due to skirmishing, possibility of gaining stubborn and the ability to move and fire with free reforms.

the roles are all different, and will work well in certain army builds and against certain enemies.
i would suspect that in an all-comers force, core shooters will be limited to archer redirectors and hbvg's for the tougher stuff.

as for the OP, good luck with the handgunners. it might be worth considering a move + fire option like a hbvg or archers to protect your artillery, as many war machine hunters are fast cavalry/flyers/tunnelers/outflankers and can deploy or move outside of your firing arc.
let us know how you get on!