Topic: Handgunners vs Crossbows vs Archers

[Lord Eli]

enough sed what is better to make and use?

[Lord Eli]

still dont see the diffrense between handgunners and crossbows

[Athiuen]

Crossbows have over 24" range and thus can shoot if you get the first turn of the game.  The longer range means that the negative for long range is reduced faster than a handgunner.  Xbows are way superior to Handguns unless you are versing armies with very high armour saves.

[commandant]

handguns sound nicer.   You get to make booming sounds as they explode

[SorenJ]

Yes, this is pretty simple - and there are multiple threads on the forum debating this. (I prefer xbows ruleswise - fluffwise I think Handgunners are nice)
Note that only hadgunners have the option for buying hocland rifle (and repater handgund I think) for their champ - but only when the unit is a regiment ie. not a detachment.

[Windelov]

enough sed what is better to make and use?

Excuse me, but I think that's a rather silly question... You can read the rules in the BRB and since the profile doesn't differ by equiptment worn, it's a rather simple calculation for any given scenario in which you consider using them.

Archers, good for flexible missile support, screeening, counter-fire, redirecting enemy charges.
Crossbow, good for static, long-range missile firepower
Handgunners, superior to crossbowmen against armoured cavalry.

It's all there in the BRB. Cheers 

[Hieronymus]

This has been debated ad nauseam already. For 9 points a model it's difficult to claim that either of them are very good, especially with BS3, but Xbows shoot further, which is their selling point, and handguns hit harder. Honestly, if you want ranged damage, use magic. 

[Krokz]

I prefer xbows ruleswise - fluffwise I think Handgunners are nice

+1

Archers are not to be compered with them. They can move 8" and shoot but more importantly, block enemy from moving into your goodies.

[The Peacemaker]

Honestly, if you want ranged damage, use magic.

Heh, really.
Spam a bunch of level 1 fire wizzards and take the signature spell.
If you spam enough you'll roll some 6's for channeling.

I guarantee these wizzards will cause more kills than the crossbowmen or handgunners.

[Joey_Boy]

I'm of the opinion that the only BS missile troops in the core section that is worth it is the archers due to their skirmishing rules. If we look at specials also well then there is outriders and pistoleers who make for excellent missile troops. And Outriders work very well with archers and huntsmen screening and re-directing for them while the pistoleers zip around troops shooting them at close range and feign flighting when needed. 

[Athiuen]

Honestly, if you want ranged damage, use magic.

Heh, really.
Spam a bunch of level 1 fire wizzards and take the signature spell.
If you spam enough you'll roll some 6's for channeling.

I guarantee these wizzards will cause more kills than the crossbowmen or handgunners.

Sadly you are probably correct.

[Krokz]

I guarantee these wizzards will cause more kills than the crossbowmen or handgunners.

Wizards are not Core.

[Hieronymus]

I guarantee these wizzards will cause more kills than the crossbowmen or handgunners.

Wizards are not Core.

Yet, for 65 points, they perform the same function admirably. We have access to Knights and State-Troops in our core, when you can take a couple of Light/Bright Wizards for firepower, the H2H potential of the rest of the core is certainly not something to be forgotten.

[The Ol Perfesser]

Honestly, if you want ranged damage, use magic.

Heh, really.
Spam a bunch of level 1 fire wizzards and take the signature spell.
If you spam enough you'll roll some 6's for channeling.

I guarantee these wizzards will cause more kills than the crossbowmen or handgunners.

I've never considered mutliple level 1 fire wizards before.  Interesting.  Have you tried this?  How many do you normally take in a 2000-2500 point list?

[Hieronymus]

They are not actually that inefficient, when you consider the Kindleflame Lore attribute. You could probably stand to take 2-3, and you wouldn't cut into your points too much.

The same is, of course, true for the Light Coven, where you need multiple Level 1 wizards to increase the S  of the Banishment. The multiple instances of Shem's can really start to rack up the damage.

[rothgar13]

I actually disagree with a lot of the statements made here - small squads of Handgunners or Crossbowmen to guard artillery are a worthwhile investment in my mind (they stand in the way of front charges, they pick off some Wounds coming in, can charge the war machine hunter if they get too close), and they help fill out minimum Core, which can be a bit of a tricky thing to do sometimes. A L1 Fire Wizard can probably out-blast them with medium-version Fireball spam, but that cuts into the power dice you would spend on the big Wizard's spells and your Battle Prayers, it's not Core, and it doesn't have the other functions that having 10 bodies provides.

[patsy02]

I actually disagree with a lot of the statements made here - small squads of Handgunners or Crossbowmen to guard artillery are a worthwhile investment in my mind (they stand in the way of front charges...

How does this one actually work out though? Unless the warmachine hunters are completely inept they'll just charge the hand gunners, run them over and end up in combat with your cannon anyway.

[rothgar13]

Exactly what I want them to do - the Handgunners will Stand & Shoot them, and that combined with any previous rounds of shooting will hopefully be enough to kill them or delay them for a couple of turns (they'll be Steadfast against the majority of conventional war machine hunters for at least 1 round of combat). 10 guys who got to pump shots in before the fight stand a much better chance of winning than 3 who didn't (the typical war machine crew).

[The Peacemaker]

If you want warmachine protectors then outriders are the way to go. 5 outriders are only 15pts more than 10 handgunners but you get more dmg, armour saves, horse combat attacks. You also get to re-position them in case your opponent had a sneaky set up. If you don't want outriders then the only other option is xbows because they have more range over outriders.


If your having trouble filling up core I have to ask how? Knights and Halberds fill up the core very quickly and they complement any type of Empire build you could be making.

If your having fun games then take whatever but from a competitive side theres not much to hum and haw about.

[rothgar13]

That's precisely the problem - I don't have enough Core to afford stuffing in the Outriders, and I feel Knights would mesh poorly with the rest of the list, given that I already have 2 units of DGK's. Perhaps you would care to discuss it over on my army list thread here?

[Shadow_Zero]

I actually disagree with a lot of the statements made here - small squads of Handgunners or Crossbowmen to guard artillery are a worthwhile investment in my mind (they stand in the way of front charges, they pick off some Wounds coming in, can charge the war machine hunter if they get too close), and they help fill out minimum Core, which can be a bit of a tricky thing to do sometimes. A L1 Fire Wizard can probably out-blast them with medium-version Fireball spam, but that cuts into the power dice you would spend on the big Wizard's spells and your Battle Prayers, it's not Core, and it doesn't have the other functions that having 10 bodies provides.

If they stand in the way of chargers, aren't they blocking line of sight of the canons?

If you want warmachine protectors then outriders are the way to go. 5 outriders are only 15pts more than 10 handgunners but you get more dmg, armour saves, horse combat attacks. You also get to re-position them in case your opponent had a sneaky set up. If you don't want outriders then the only other option is xbows because they have more range over outriders.

Again, regarding line of sight, where would you place the Outriders, to protect the canons?

[rothgar13]

Just pivot and shoot the artillery in another direction. My favorite way to do this is by deploying artillery pieces at the corners of the board.

[Mathi Alfblut]

Ehh... I am shocked. 

I agree with all what Rothgar written so far. Small units of XB and Handguns are worth it when used for the right task and against the right targets. And for all their firepower, Outriders are way more expensive and pretty much if all you want them to do is guard your warmachines.

Have a pint, Rothgar. 

[Windelov]

Ehh... I am shocked. 

I agree with all what Rothgar written so far. Small units of XB and Handguns are worth it when used for the right task and against the right targets. And for all their firepower, Outriders are way more expensive and pretty much if all you want them to do is guard your warmachines.

Have a pint, Rothgar. 

+1

[rothgar13]

Much obliged, Mathi. *downs pint*

The thing is, Empire does have a need for an artillery guard that can do more than just sit there and wait for a war machine hunting unit to come close (because it might just run around you), and Crossbows/Handgunners fit the task perfectly. Sure, you can do it with Outriders, but Outriders can and should be off to bigger and better things elsewhere, and they don't count as Core. If you're like me, your army revolves around a big block of Halberds as your center, with 2 units of DGK's on the flanks. You're not bringing much else in the way of Core (an Archer unit to bunker your Wizard, maybe a couple of 5-man detachments to redirect), and thus the Handgunners/Crossbowmen fill a needed niche. I prefer gunners because I already know people will be coming toward my machines and the Armor Piercing helps against Fast Cav, though I reserve the right to change my mind and swap to Crossbows.